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Indy4now
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Username: Indy4now

Post Number: 308
Registered: 2-2008
Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 7:32 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've just finished the study Kay Arthur wrote on the Covenants. It was awesome!!!! So many details and little shadows I hadn't seen before. She does a great job with identifying common elements of the different covenants and the timing (i.e. when the law was added... "until" the promised Seed). This study has been a great help in my discussions with a friend who is part of the HRM movement. She believes the New Covenant is a "Renewed" covenant... which is why she says that we should be keeping the Torah. ugh!

Has anyone else gone through this study?

What studies have you done and do you recommend?

~vivian
Benevento
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Post Number: 234
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Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 10:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I haven't done Kay Athurs study--but the New Covenant is really connected to the Abrahamic covenant of the promised seed. The mosiac covenant was given until the seed would come and 450 years after Abraham, Everything changed
after Christ came and we were no longer under the law but
under grace when we accepted him. But Abraham was promised
that one of his descendants would be the seed or Messiah and
that is why the Jewish nation was preserved and genealogy was so important to them. Your friend may have the Abrahamic and Mosiac covenants mixed up. I know there are some prophecies about the Jews being scattered and coming together, but I don't
think that applies to this --after Christ came the gospel went to the Gentiles (and Jews and Samaritans) Peggy
Benevento
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Post Number: 235
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Posted on Friday, November 21, 2008 - 10:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Vivian
I am glad to know about that study though because I am thinking
about offering to get a group together of a few SDA's (rather
disgruntled ones) and studying the covenants. Peggy
Larry
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Post Number: 721
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Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 9:36 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Does Kay Arthur address the fact that James states that Abraham was justified by his works?

I am tempted to think James was a heretic, or the translators got it wrong.

Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar? James 2:21
Indy4now
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Post Number: 309
Registered: 2-2008
Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 11:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Benevento~

She covers all that completely. In fact, I didn't know that the New Covenant was connected to the Abrahamic covenant until I worked through this study. She addresses the fact that the Mosaic covenant was not an extension of the covenant with Abraham.

Larry~ She didn't address the fact that James states that Abraham was justified by his works. As an Adventist, I always read that verse and inserted "keeping the 10C's" where it says "works". To me... it was always that "Abraham was justified by keeping the 10C's". Of course when you read it in context, you see that the works Abraham did was to obey God's command when He asked Abraham to sacrifice Isaac... the other work that James brings up was the fact that Rahab hid the spies. Neither of these 2 "works" are a commandment in the Law.

Anyway, I think it's an excellent overview of the covenants... a part of the Bible I didn't even know about as an Adventist.

~vivian
Dennis
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Post Number: 1534
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Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 3:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Larry,

James 2:21 does not contradict Paul's clear teaching that Abraham was justified before God by grace alone through faith alone (Rom. 3:20;4:1-25; Gal. 3:6,11). For several reasons, James cannot mean that Abraham was constituted righteousness before God because of his own good works: (1) James has already emphasized that salvation is a gracious gift (1:17,18); (2) in the middle of this disputed passage (v. 23), James quoted Genesis 15:6, which forcefully claims that God credited righteousness to Abraham solely on the basis of his faith; and (3) the work that James said justified Abraham was his offering up of Isaac (Gen. 22:9,12), an event that occurred many years after he first exercised faith and was declared righteous before God.

Instead, Abraham's offering of Isaac demonstrated the genuineness of his faith and the reality of his justification before God. James is emphasizing the vindication before others of a person's claim to salvation. James's teaching perfectly complements Paul's writings; salvation is determined by faith alone and demonstrated by faithfulness to obey God's will alone (Eph. 2:10).

Dennis Fischer

(Message edited by Dennis on November 22, 2008)
Larry
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Post Number: 729
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Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 4:12 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

OK Dennis.

We all do a little good and a bunch bad. Can it be said that Abraham was justified by his works while he was fibbing to that king about his half sister, or doing the carnal deal with Hagar?

Where is it written that it is just the good that we do that justifies us? James comes close to that.

Look at James 2:24, Dennis:

24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Tell me how the thief on the cross took advantage of this teaching.

It still sounds like heresy.
Larry
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Post Number: 730
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Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 4:19 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Also, it is not our contrived works that we are talking about in Ephesions 2:

10For we are God's workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to do good works, which God prepared in advance for us to do.

The thief on the cross could do no greater work than this:

Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent." John 6:29
Dennis
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Post Number: 1535
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Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Larry,

Salvation is a gift to be received, not a goal to be achieved. Both Abraham and David did very carnal deeds, but God declared both of them righteous. The thief on the Cross had a faith that works by calling upon the Savior of the world. We are not justified by what we do in any way.

True faith always results in good deeds, but the deeds do not justify us. Faith brings us salvation; active obedience demonstrates that our faith is genuine. Faith is also a gift from God--not something we humans possess. Without God doing something miraculous in the thief's heart, he would not have desired Jesus. In short, regeneration precedes faith. Salvation is totally from the Lord!

Dennis Fischer
Larry
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Post Number: 734
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Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 4:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis, Jesus is the author and finisher of our faith. Are there Bible examples that describe somebody that had faith, but no works, that would satisfy what James said?

24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.
Larry
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Post Number: 735
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Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 4:59 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Is it justification of faith plus works?

Or is it justification by faith alone by grace alone?

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Please comment on post #734 as well.
Larry
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Post Number: 740
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Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2008 - 8:06 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis,

Is there anything wrong with this picture:

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast ...
24You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone.

Is this really the place that Paul would have stuck James comment?
Larry
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Post Number: 749
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Posted on Sunday, November 23, 2008 - 12:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Do we receive justification by our works, earned wages?

Or do we receive justification by our faith, gifted to us by God?

I want my justification by faith, the gift.

Does anyone here want justification by wages?

Clearly there is something wrong when we cannot tell the difference.
Larry
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Username: Larry

Post Number: 758
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Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 10:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

active obedience demonstrates that our faith is genuine - Dennis



You think God has to wait for your works to see if the faith He gifted you is genuine?

By that line of reasoning, you are denigrating God to some bumbling supervisor, Dennis.

I wish you would comment candidly and timely.
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker

Post Number: 9038
Registered: 12-2003


Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 2:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Larry, Larry, Larry...

The amazing thing about the Bible is that it does teach that truth and reality are, from our perspective, paradoxical. (I know you know this!) From an eternal perspective, unlimited by time, I do not believe the apparent paradoxes actually contradict.

Of course God knows if our faith is the faith of His gift. And of course the Bible says that our works of faith demonstrate that we have His gift!

Colleen
Larry
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Username: Larry

Post Number: 771
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Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 5:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen, are we justified by our works (James) or justified by our faith, and not our works?

Ephesians 2
8For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast

Why is it all the works-heresy groups go straight for the book of James?
Fromlawtosbg
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Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 5:55 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hello Larry,

I have had the same questions. I see a difference between the "Body of Christ" (us) and Israel of times past and ages to come. I see that James is writing to Israel as it says in James 1:1. Paul in Ephesians is writing to us the Body of Christ. I believe all the Bible is written for us just not all to us.

I think the works-heresy groups go to James because they think they are Israel in ages to come. Just my two cents worth. :-)
Larry
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Post Number: 773
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Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 6:01 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Thank you fromlawtosbg, that takes a little stress out of it.

So would we be considered heretic to move from Christianity (Savior has come, died, and rose again) into full blown Judaism (still waiting for Messiah) for our salvation?

I also noticed once what Revelation said about a certain group that claims to be spiritual Jews / Israel:

I know your afflictions and your poverty—yet you are rich! I know the slander of those who say they are Jews and are not, but are a synagogue of Satan. Revelation 2:9

Am I the only one who as heard all my life that sda were spiritual Jews?
Colleentinker
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Post Number: 9047
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Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 9:47 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Fromlawtosbg, Paul is explicitly clear in Ephesians 2:14-18 that the Lord Jesus destroyed the barrier between Jew and Gentile in His own body by nailing the dividing wall, the law with its ordinances and commands to the cross. We cannot re-erect that wall and say that Jews are saved differently from Gentiles.

I know that classic dispensationalism says there is a separate salvation for the Jews, but the Bible is clear that Jesus is the once-for-all sacrifice, the wall of division os gone, and Jews must be grafted back into the olive tree by coming to belief (Romans 11). They are not saved or judged righteous by their works any more than are we Gentiles.

Always God told them that what He desired was the circumcision of their hearts. Read Romans 2 and the first half of Romans 3. A Jew is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that which is of the heart by the Spirit, not by works—Romans 2:29.

Colleen
Bmorgan
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Post Number: 176
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Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 9:49 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Vivian,
My first Precepts study was the Covenant Study, in 2002. Like you it was very helpful and many concepts about the New Covenant became clearer to me.

Though I love CBS and BSF studies, I now find it more rewarding and appealing for me to do Precepts Inductive Bible Study. At first, I was reluctant and stayed away from doing Precepts Studies because they appeared overwhelming.

However, I have since completed (believe it or not), Daniel, Revelation and Genesis through Precepts IBS.

Because you did the Covenant study, you will find it especially helpful if or when you study any other book, particularly Romans and Galatians.

Blessings to you.
ErmaB
Bmorgan
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Post Number: 177
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Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 9:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What is the HRM movement? If you don't mind me asking.
Indy4now
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Post Number: 316
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Posted on Monday, December 08, 2008 - 8:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi ErmaB~

Sorry I haven't been back to read this post... so I don't know if you'll be back. HRM is the Hebrew Roots Movement. The movement doesn't have one particular teacher or website. They believe that the Torah should be restored. They believe that the "New" covenant is a "renewed" covenant. To them, all covenants are part of "one" covenant. My friend tells me that it's Greek Pagan influence on Christianity that has broken the Bible into "two Words". Basically, the movement places the Old Covenant as the superior covenant. Where Adventists believe that the 10C's are binding on all believers, they believe that the entire Torah is binding on all true believers. The attitude of my friend is that she has been enlightened by learning the different meanings of the Hebrew alphabet and how each letter adds meaning to the Hebrew words. (Which is also how Kaballists read the Torah).

I have been studying through the New Inductive Study Series by Kay Arthur. These studies also cover a book of the Bible at a time. They are not as in-depth as the Precepts studies, but exactly the tool that I need to relearn my Bible.

I'm glad to hear someone else's experience with Kay Arthur's studies.

~vivian

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