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Larry
Registered user
Username: Larry
Post Number: 756
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 10:02 am: |     |
quote:He's still defending the other 26 points, and very probably will think that I hastily dumped the baby with the water when I left the Adventist fold. He's acting still as a committed Adventist. - Jackob
You are changing the definition of "committed" in typical sda fashion! No committed person is free to pick and choose, jettisoning up to 95% essential beliefs, all the while calling himself committed, unless he is self-deceived.
I did not ask what he was thinking of you.
quote:That's a hypothetical situation which I doubt really exist. Simply I can't see how somebody expressing rejection of ALL Adventist beliefs can still call himself an SDA. - Jackob
Who set you up to determine the "Official Heresy/Deception Rules According To Hoyle" ?
There is only one Truth, and an infinite amount of heresies and lies, considering all the variables and mathmatical permutations, correct?
The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it? Jeremiah 17:9
Simply, the unregenerate heart is capable of being so deceitful as to junk all 28 essential beliefs, and call oneself an sda. What is so amazing about self deceit? They do it all the time!!
quote:If you intended to say that there is no Christian truth in Adventism, no elements of Christian doctrines, I have a different view. - Jackob
Hold it right there. Any person that comes at you with a different gospel is coming at you with no gospel at all. Yes, they may use Christian elements and words, but they do not fool the regenerate, discerning believer. They will not fool God. Does not matter what words they use if they have to use deceit to get the job accomplished.
And no gospel at all is the spiritual equivalent of somebody coming to you with voodoo-ism, teaching it as gospel. There is one Truth, all else is deadly junk. Agreed?
We do not divide felloship over sabbath issues! We divide fellowship over the gospel, and their clear lack of the gospel. Remember, adding anything to the gospel is equivalent to no gospel at all! And that includes any rationalizations for what happened in 1844, completing the atonement. Need I say more?
The sda sabbath is merely a diversion from their initial 1844 sanctuary heresy, gotten there first by teaching the shut door, then the IJ and the need to keep all 10 commandments perfectly for salvation.
Jackob, 1844 was never about the sabbath. Their little decetiful hearts have wandered to the sabbath as their stronghold. Their primary sin was timesetting and non-repentance. God let some wander and be lost in this. Others He chose to have mercy on.
Please do not bring the sabbath into this.
quote:I'm not assuming that this or that Adventist is a true Christian when he preaches or believes in a false gospel. At the same time, knowing God's power to save people despite the system, I allow room for exceptions. - Jackob
I don't argue with that. I also do not argue with Gods ability to save a Cretan, mentioned in Titus 1
10For there are many rebellious people, mere talkers and deceivers, especially those of the circumcision group.
11They must be silenced, because they are ruining whole households by teaching things they ought not to teach - and that for the sake of dishonest gain.
12Even one of their own prophets has said, "Cretans are always liars, evil brutes, lazy gluttons." 13This testimony is true. Therefore, rebuke them sharply, so that they will be sound in the faith 14and will pay no attention to Jewish myths or to the commands of those who reject the truth.
15To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
16They claim to know God, but by their actions they deny Him. They are detestable, disobedient and unfit for doing anything good. Titus 1
But until God shows mercy on a cretan, or an sda, he is considered detestable, disobedient, and unfit for anything good. If you have an argument with that, take it up with St Paul. |
Larry
Registered user
Username: Larry
Post Number: 757
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 10:11 am: | |
quote:We cannot determine someone’s standing with God by their currently held erroneous beliefs. - Jonvil
Oh?
Paul determined Cretans standing due to their erroneous beliefs corrupted minds & consciences, being talkers and deceivers, ruining whole households, and rejecting the truth! I just posted some Titus 1 above, check it out. Verse 16 is Gods view of these people until He shows them mercy!!
Here is my belief: We are all considered disobedient and dead in our sins until God shows us mercy. That's it! And to those He shows mercy, He will not fail. He is the author and finisher of our faith. Period.
The sda who insists on a foreign gospel is merely showing his deadness in sins, the lack of mercy. He is no different than the Cretan in Titus 1. I am not saying at all that he will never be shown mercy at some future point.
We are told that Pharaoh was created for that very purpose, to be hardened. I'd like somebody to prove that Gods sovereigny to destroy only applies to Pharaoh and nobody else! |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 499
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 12:35 pm: | |
Larry,
Let us take things step by step. Titus 1:10-16 deals with Paul's instructions for procedures in the Church. At that time there was a single visible body, a single visible Church, not many denominations like it is now. Because the judaizers were making inroads in the church, disseminating their ideas, creating division in the body, Paul is enforcing here internally disciplinary measures which are limited to sharp rebukes. Interesting is that he's treating them as true believers, not as unbelievers. He's not giving them in the hands of Satan, disfellowshipping those who cause trouble as he did with the adulterer from Corinth. In that case, the message was clear "You're outside the bounds of the kingdom of God, according to your sinful detestable behavior you're belonging to the kingdom of this world, of Satan".
But here he limits the discipline to sharp rebukes "so that they will be sound in the faith", indirectly pointing that their faith was unsound, their spiritual condition was unhealthy. What's important was that he assumed that they had true faith, but, as in the case of galatians, were true believers seduced by a false gospel. They remained true believers even when they were under the spell of a false gospel. Weak faith, deficient faith, but still true faith. If Paul considered the people about which he spoke to Titus unbelievers, the normal discipline applied in these cases was disfellowship (see the cases of Hymenaeus and Alexander (1 Timothy 1:20).
In conclusion the procedure about which Paul speaks to Titus does not fit with our dealing with Adventists. We are first of all not elders and we cannot exercise discipline in a church, and even if we will be elders, Adventists don't belong to our Church. They're out of our jurisdiction, as elders. There is a difference of context which doesn't offer us a method of dealing with Adventists.
quote:Here is my belief: We are all considered disobedient and dead in our sins until God shows us mercy. That's it! And to those He shows mercy, He will not fail. He is the author and finisher of our faith. Period.
Agree. Exactly because "to those He shows mercy, He will not fail", the Galatians who came to believe a false gospel, were still true Christians who subsequently were rescued and restored to a sound faith by Paul's letter. They are perhaps the best proof that "we cannot determine someone’s standing with God by their currently held erroneous beliefs." Their currently held beliefs when Paul send them the letter were definitely erroneous, a false gospel. But God had not yet finished His work with them.
Gabriel |
Larry
Registered user
Username: Larry
Post Number: 766
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 12:53 pm: | |
quote:in the case of galatians, were true believers seduced by a false gospel. They remained true believers even when they were under the spell of a false gospel. Jackob
Here is where your logic and argument are broken.
I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the One who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - which is really no gospel at all. Galations 1
Since when do we call those who have deserted the One, those who have no gospel at all, "true believers"? Start making sense, Jackob. |
Larry
Registered user
Username: Larry
Post Number: 768
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 1:10 pm: | |
Jakob, do you suppose Paul would really have nothing to say about sda-ism were he alive in body today? Since they are not a part of the body he would not concern himself with them?
Or do you think his comments would run exactly like that found in Titus 1?
Dream on! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 9037
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 2:45 pm: | |
Larry, I don't hear Jackob cutting Adventism any slack. I hear him denouncing it as a fatal deception.
Quite obviously there are Adventists who are God's elect PRIOR to their coming out!! I believe the reason any Adventist begins to question is that God Himself opens their eyes and hearts to the cognitive dissonance of Adventism vs the gospel.
People process out of Adventism often over a period of years. Have you read Dale Ratzlaff's story, Truth Led Me Out? He was dying from a galloping infection early in his marriage; as he lay half-delirious, he realized he was not ready to die and committed himself to the Lord Jesus, accepting Him as his Redeemer and Lord. He accepted Jesus' forgiveness, and he writes that he experienced a profound awareness that he was safe in Jesus. His fear and insecurity were gone.
That was YEARS before he left. In fact, because of that event and the fact that God healed him, he committed to return to college and study SDA theology. It was during those early theology classes that he first encountered questions his professors couldn't answer. The non-resolution of his questions, however, did not negate his firm belief in Adventism.
He continued to study and to preach and teach Adventism. Simultaneously, however, he began to study Romans, and he began to see that God promises righteousness apart from the law. Even though he was still deeply "committed" to Adventism, he nevertheless increased his questions and began to question Adventist teachers and theologians at high levels, demanding answers.
You know the ending. He finally left Adventism because he could not find biblical support for the IJ. He left without finishing his doctorate at Andrews, which he had been pursuing.
So, was Dale saved while he believed Adventism before he understood the deep dishonesty of it and understood what the Bible actually taught?
This is the sort of question I can't answer about other people. I only know that I committed myself to JEsus and accepted Him while I was Adventist. I believe that I would never have been able to see reality if I had not responded to the Holy Spirit before I left.
I cannot explain why some people "see" and leave very quickly, and why others, like Dale and also like Richard and like me, wanted to serve Jesus and gave Him our lives and trusted Him to forgive our sins (even though Adventism clouded us and left us feeling insecure)--and were left in the system for YEARS before finally coming out. I do know that during those intervening years God taught each of us deeply, revealing to us at detailed and even almost hidden levels what was really wrong with the system. In many ways, I see God preparing us for the work He created in advance for us to do.
So yes—a person who believes in the "Adventist gospel" is believing falsehood. I actually believe that the majority of Adventists are not born again. But there are some who have deep dissonance and are searching for answers. These may remain in the church for months or even years as God works in their lives. Those actually may be born again, as Dale was as he lay dying and accepted JEsus as His Savior, experiencing assurance and a complete change of heart.
You KNOW I don't cut Adventism any slack. I just can't be dogmatic about individual Adventists because I KNOW God is calling them out. And I even know that although Adventists in general do not really understand the sovereign, all-powerful Jesus of the Bible, they may actually be trusting His death for their sin even without really knowing Him as He is.
It's a confusing thing to "analyze", but I know I personally must look at Adventists and assume they do not know Jesus and are not born again...yet I also know that there are some whom God is awakening and calling to integrity. I can't make those kinds of personal judgments about specific individuals.
Colleen |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 9046
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 3:22 pm: | |
And Larry (and all), the purpose of this forum is to be a safe place for those who are questioning Adventism, have left Adventism, or who have loved ones who are Adventist.
We can pretty much expect that people here will have different understanding of How Things Work because of their differences of experience and spiritual maturity. We are here to support and teach and encourage and pray for one another. It won't change anyone's mind to INSIST people's arguments are WRONG or to insinuate that people are dishonest or say they are heretics if they understand things differently.
Having a difference of understanding regarding a theological technicality is completely different from being an unbeliever. Those of us here are on the same team. We don't have to criticize or intimidate while expressing a difference of understanding.
Hey, we ALL have a lot to learn. You, me, everyone...and the Lord Jesus has saved us and as part of our inheritance, He is teaching us!
Let kindness prevail.
Colleen |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 500
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Monday, November 24, 2008 - 9:08 pm: | |
Larry, you said
quote:I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting the One who called you by the grace of Christ and are turning to a different gospel - which is really no gospel at all. Galations 1
Since when do we call those who have deserted the One, those who have no gospel at all, "true believers"? Start making sense, Jackob.
I admit that the qualification "believer" can be misleading. What I was trying to communicate is that even true believers, who are born again, can, for a time, be seduced by a false gospel and act as they are enemies of the gospel.
Even the text you quoted said that they deserted God, telling us that we are dealing with believers, people who were on God's side.
"And because you are sons, God has sent the Spirit of his Son into our hearts, crying, “Abba! Father!” 7 So you are no longer a slave, but a son, and if a son, then an heir through God." Galatians 4:6,7
This tells us that those to whom Paul is speaking were born again Christians.
"Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3 Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" Galatians 3:2,3
Paul assumes that they begun the Christian life by the Spirit, they were regenerated people. The following texts back up this assumption:
"For freedom Christ has set us free; stand firm therefore, and do not submit again to a yoke of slavery." Galatians 5:1
They were set free.
"You were running well. Who hindered you from obeying the truth? "
Galatians 5:7
They were running well, they lived the Christian life.
Of course, Paul is sending a letter to a mixed crowd, composed of true and false believers. Even he is perplexed how quickly they abandoned the belief in the true gospel for a false gospel. But he makes a distinction between those who troubled them, calling those "false brothers" (Galatians 2:4), and those to whom he is writing the letter who were seduced by a false gospel. He's not talking to the false brothers, he's talking to the brothers in Christ.
The basic point is that we cannot assume that somebody who professes a false gospel is dead in sin, because Paul is talking here to people who no longer were dead in sin, they were brought to life by the Holy Spirit. And people who are born again and fall prey to a false gospel does not become unborn, and born again for a second time when they abandon the false gospel. The Bible does not speak about multiple experiences of being "born again".
I admit that from our perspective it is not easy to understand how somebody who's no longer dead in sin can for a time be seduced by a false gospel and act as somebody who is dead in sin. Nevertheless this is a real situation. Maybe talking about these persons as true believers when they are deceived by a false gospel is not a proper way of talking, but we can safely affirm that even people who were born again can be deceived for a time by a false gospel. A false gospel does not by default mean that the person who is under its influence is dead in sin.
quote:Jakob, do you suppose Paul would really have nothing to say about sda-ism were he alive in body today? Since they are not a part of the body he would not concern himself with them?
Or do you think his comments would run exactly like that found in Titus 1?
Paul was concerned with any false gospel, coming from inside or outside the church. My point was that the text you quoted speaks about heresy in the church, coming from people inside the visible church, who can be disciplined, a different situation that we have today with Adventists.
I agree with Colleen, I'm not assuming that the Adventist Church is composed of true believers. A false gospel does not produce a true church, true faith, true believers. But as I presented my case above, I let room for exceptions.
Gabriel |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 501
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 12:25 am: | |
And Larry,
If we are one mind and soul about the gospel and fight against a false gospel, we are on the same side. The last thing I want is to be perceived as a defender of Adventism. As Colleen said, we may have a different understanding because different experiences and still what unites us, the gospel, is one thousand more times precious and important than our differences.
As you, I have to pay a price for my current position. My wife is still Adventist, and when I said "committed" Adventist I didn't intend to redefine the word "committed" in the Adventist fashion. I just used it according to the reality that the majority of Adventists pick and choose what to believe or practice. Even Ellen White preached against eating meat and she eat oysters. In a sense, there is no "committed" Adventist, or if he is, he is either into an asylum or is going to that place, because a legalistic system, pursued with consistency drives people crazy. The yoke of the law is unbearable, so anybody must take license to some part of it. My wife thinks that I'm breaking the fourth commandment but she's doing a lot of things that are forbidden by the mosaic law to be done on the sabbath day. But nevertheless I need to do a spiritual battle with legalism, even in my home, with an anti-gospel spirit which characterize Adventism, and not only. What I'm trying to communicate here is that I'm not taking things related to Adventism easily.
Hope this helps,
Gabriel |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 956
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 4:43 am: | |
Awesome letter, Jackob - thanks for posting it! |
Larry
Registered user
Username: Larry
Post Number: 775
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 10:14 am: | |
At the risk of invoking the wrath of those who think peace and safety should have priority over truth, I will allow my mentally-deranged self (and there are those here who think I should not be here, or post, which makes me an unfit leper, pariah) here goes:
It would appear that adventism has even redefined the meaning of "committed" to that of buffet take it or leave it. Redefining of words and meanings and scripture is all called "private interpretation" and is condemned. It truely brings about the spiritual babylon that they rail against!
Jackob, you have written well. It must be very difficult for you to exist in a sabbath household every week. Perhaps you have to "tiptoe" around certain customs, needs, beliefs and wants. Your wife is trying to keep the kids in "sabbath truth" and you know it is all hooey, that it is their redefined additioned to the gospel. Ouch. I don't envy rolling that rock uphill every single week!
We have a statement in Galations that defines their position nicely, I think. Tell me if you see anything different with what it says, and what you are saying:
You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace. Galatians 5:4
My apologies to all who consider me to be devil filled just like a certain member here stigmatized poor Skyfox, calling him "I see you satan". And everybody just idly stood around while the newby slunk off. Who was the bully? Who needed your protection? |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 322
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 12:09 pm: | |
Colleen...
I really appreciate your last post decribing the purpose of this forum. Some here feel the need to be overly condeming of those who post their opinions and experiences here. As you concluded your post..."let kindness prevail", there are some here who refuse to be kind to those who share opinions that are different from theirs. Such a shame indeed.
Animal |
Jorgfe
Registered user
Username: Jorgfe
Post Number: 1402
Registered: 11-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 1:45 pm: | |
Colleen, your points are well made. Larry, yours as well. I view each of you as brothers and sisters in Christ. We are each at different points in our spiritual journey. We are instructed by Scripture to encourage each other -- wherever we may be along that continuum.
For 56 years I was a supporter of Adventism -- much of the time historic Adventism, toward the end evangelical Adventism as I attempted to make a "gospel of probation" fit a Biblical "gospel of adoption". I was certain that ultimately the Sunday Laws would be passed and we, as Adventists, would be vindicated. I was not about to "jump ship".
It was God who had other plans. I have nothing to boast about. We need to show a tenderness as we assist the Master Surgeon in cutting away the cancer of Adventism in others.
I think you all know that I have zero tolerance for those Adventist pastors who clearly indicate that they do understand the falsehoods they are promoting as they continue to destroy the spiritual lives of others. They must be exposed. They must be stopped at every turn. They know full well what they are doing, and their continued prevarication and obfuscation prooves it. That is totally different from pastors and lay people who are following the dictates of their consciences and engaging in real study of the Scriptures. There is an unmistakable difference.
My heart goes out to those who have spouses who are stuck in Adventism, but scripture tells us that through our faithfulness even our spouses can be saved. We serve a powerful God.
It is extremely tough for most of us when we transition out of Adventism. We don't have a lot of "wiggle-room" for mistakes. Our spouses, who are still Adventists, are looking for every slip-up -- for confirmations that they are right and we are wrong. That extends to attempting to lead our children out of the probation-oriented gospel of Adventism, and into the adoption-oriented gospel of Christianity. It is tough.
I was very lucky. Somehow my wife and I happened to be on the same "wave-length" inspite of the fact that we were convinced in totally different ways. Only the Holy Spirit works like that.
We must be an encourager of our dear brothers and sisters, a strong arm in a time of need, a fortress against the storm, and most of all, a lighthouse -- a beacon of hope and safety for those who are following in our footsteps.
We must pray without ceasing. We must pray for each other. We come here to bare our souls, our thoughts, our questions. To learn and to grow. To live out what it means to be a Christian, and to radiate that grace that shows that the Holy Spirit is living within us. It is our Christian duty to keep the wolves away, and protect and nurture the sheep.
I am speechless at the thought that God considers me worthy to be called a child of His.
Gilbert Jorgensen |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1538
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 6:01 pm: | |
Gabriel and Gilbert,
The good news is that God is the business of saving entire families. The family unit is a sacred, unifying institution. Repeatedly in Scripture, we see where God has chosen to save entire families (i.e., the households of Noah, Lydia, Stephanas, Cornelius, etc.). Moreover, God's family concept further incorporates the decendants of Abraham in a spiritual sense (Rom. 9:6-8; Heb. 4:23). Based on Romans 11, many Bible students also believe that literal Israel is not cast away.
A great deal of our present crisis in the church is due to our own laziness, the pace of our worldly lives, and the failure of nerve in taking seriously this divine mandate to build dynasties of faith. It is time that Christian fathers take their priesthood more seriously than ever. God is counting on them as well as female heads of household. I have discovered that parenting really never ends. This endless parenting is most relevant in the spiritual realm.
Dennis Fischer |
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