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Martin
Registered user
Username: Martin
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 7:12 am: |     |
Hi,
first I want to thank Richard Tinker for accepting my application for an account... Second, I want to introduce myself to the rest of the forum 
My name is Martin and I'm a SDA from Spain. Well, I'm still a SDA at least on paper... Not sure about it "in the spirit". Let's say that it's been quite a long time since I could fully picture myself as such. I have been reading the forum for a few weeks now and I must say that it's been very interesting... Some days ago I felt the need to ask some questions, and I thought that here I could find people who went through a similar situation as me.
Anyway, my life as a SDA... I was born in Argentina and my family moved to Spain in 1989 (my grandfather was spanish, and the rest of my family came from Spanish and Italian migrants to South America)... The first contact with the church was in 1987, when my mother attended a seminar about dealing with stress, and later my father joined to that and another to stop smoking. Some time after they started having bible studies and they got baptized, together with my brother. To be fair, it actually was a positive change since my father stopped smoking, drinking alcohol (he used to drink quite a bit) and worrying (he suffered a lot of stress and would worry about death, something that disappeared after he accepted Jesus).
However, later, my mother left the church due to problems with some brothers... When we moved to Spain, a couple of years later, she started attending the church once again but left after some other situations with people there. She's very senstitive to hypocrisy so you can imagine... I can not blame her! Since then she would never come back to be a member of the SDA church or be interested in any other church. She would still talk with people and not be very negative about us attending, except when something was said or done that would affect her.
The truth is that we've never been die-hard SDA. Things never were very strict, maybe since my mother would probably not accept it and, heh, I guess we never were that much in that kind of stuff. After an initial failed attempt to go vegetarian, we returned to our meat... But we don't eat much of it anyway. And other things too, that are long to tell now.
In the 'theological' side of things... I remember once that my father told the pastor, in a Sabbath school, that 'But the doctrines do not save you. Jesus saves you.' and he received some very intense looks coming from others You can have an idea about the general landscape. Just he reads more from EGW, but I think he doesn't take her seriously in everything.
So, about me... I would say that, in general, I've been more in the 'liberal' side of things. I've never was a big fan of Ellen and her writings. The only book I started reading was the 'Great Controversy'... And never finished it. I also was very weary of all those compilation books that are so frequently used in the church. I would never trust those because, well, what kind of book can you make by taking sentences from many different letters and writings? That way you can make it say anything you want. Anyway, in any case I never left the church, even when I would feel more discouraged (and sometimes I'm surprised I didn't!) and I would just continue forward, accepting some things and leaving some others, especially the ones related with the Sister. I was baptized in 1997, when I was 17, and I think that the pastor was a bit pressuring me to do it... He wanted to baptize me before being transferred. In any case, to my surprise, they would always choose me in the church to be youth director or to teach kids in the sabbath school. No idea why, but they always saw me like fitting into those roles.
Anyway, things somehow started changing a bit some years ago. One day, can't remember exactly when, I asked my father: 'If I do a study of the beliefs of the church and I do not agree with something, what should I do?'... Didn't get a satisfactory answer for that and decided to leave it aside But I always felt that I wanted to study it all, to see what I was supposed to believe and if it really agreed with the Bible.
One day I was looking for something on Internet about 'la señora' White and came to 'ellenwhiteexposed'... What was it? No idea. Just didn't pay much attention since it was something from people against the church. But, you know, sometimes things come back to you for a good reason
In 2005 I came to the UK to study in the university. In the first year I would attend church 3-4 times and that was all. I wasn't rebellious or anything like that, but I didn't want to go to church. In 2006 I went to Singapore, as an exchange student, and started attending the SDA church there once again... Really nice people and actually helped me a lot to come back to Jesus.
My brother's wife had told my parents that I could get 'attracted' to Buddhism or some other eastern religion... Actually, since Singapore is such a multicultural country you are exposed to many religions. I started reading about Islam, Buddhism, Sikhism, Judaism and others, mainly due to curiosity... And, well, sincerely there was a small part of me seeing what I could find in there. But nothing really convinced me, even if I saw 'beautiful' things in all of them: I saw flaws in the logic used in those defending Buddhism; I found Islam to be very legalistic... Anyway, I think that the exposure to all was very positive at least to open my mind. I also attended, for the first time since I became SDA, a church on sunday, invited by some friends. It was an independent Baptist church, with some charismatic elements in their worship style, and I found that almost everything I heard there could be perfectly said in a SDA church... Nothing was really wrong. I also started reading more into those websites that were critical with the SDA church, since I thought that if somebody is criticizing then it's good to know their reasons to do so. Sadly or happily I would agree in several points with them, especially when related with my 'unfriendliness' with Ellen White.
Later I came back to the UK and started attending the SDA church here... Kind of liberal in some aspects, especially in the music style with all types of instruments. Very lively! I became friends with this older couple, that at first sight they seemed to me quite conservative (They are vegan!)... But my surprise was huge when, speaking with the husband, I came to discover that he thought quite a bit like me. We'd have many discussions about all those topics through the last year and this one. After Easter, I started attending the Christian Union meetings of my university and they were great... In general I would feel more satisfied with what I got there on mondays than after the sabbath service.
I should mention that in August I attended, for the first time on my own initiative, a non-SDA church. It is a Baptist-Anglican-non denominational church, and the service was simply beautiful. Actually, this friend from the SDA church recommended it to me when I mentioned that I had curiosity about going to other churches. Thing is that before I entered the church, I felt as if I had to break some kind of 'barrier' inside of me... Being the 'liberal' adventist I was, I felt as if I were doing something not completely 'fine'. The other time I had been invited, but now I was doing it alone!!!
This year, after the summer, I started attending the Christian Union again and since then I've been involved with different activities, collaborating with the team in charge of the international students. We organize this Cafe, on friday's evening, where we invite international students to tea, cake and a nice chat. We talk about anything and, if they want, we talk with them about Jesus!
From time to time I would feel this impulse to read a bit more and find information about what people criticizes in the SDA church. I would start but would leave it after a while, continuing as if nothing had happened. Until a couple of weeks ago...
The Christian Union's in the UK have published about 400,000 books of the Gospel of Mark, in a special edition to give for free, as an evangelization programme. We give it to the international students and if they are interested we read it with them... I took one of those to my house and read it in a couple of nights.
Oh boy! Does that book work! After that I started looking for info on internet once again and I found the Proclamation magazine... Great articles in general. And also started reading once again the FAF website and this forum.
Then I decided to read all the epistles in the NT, one after the other, and see what they tell to me directly. I finally had the energy to do something that I always wanted to do but never got to! So I started and haven't stopped since then. My idea was to read the whole NT and then read it again, with another translation. I was very surprised when, somewhere on internet, I read some former SDA recommending exactly the same thing!
Oh boy, once again! Do those books work! As I was reading those simple and clear truths, I could see the differences with what is generally taught in the SDA church. I could notice that, even if not everything was clear to me, what people was talking about in internet would generally agree with the Bible! I felt very excited, and then I thought that I could not consider myself as SDA any more. And started thinking more seriously about leaving the church, something I would consider sometimes before but then leave behind.
Two sundays ago I went to that same church again, in the evening... I felt very moved by the Grace centered message and songs, like tailored to everything I had been reading until then. In the end they asked if anybody wanted to pray for anything could go to the front... I wasn't sure but I went anyway. I asked for God giving me faith and strength in a decision I might take, that seems simple but that I feel like something huge... A immense step. While this guy was praying for me, then the preacher heard and came to pray also and said that he just had a picture in his mind, a picture of me worrying about something, about the details of something, but then God's big hand under me, holding me... Like saying that He would always hold me, just asking me to trust Him.
I wasn't sure how to take it but then I remembered something that happened to me a couple of years ago, in Singapore, when I quite clearly heard God inside of me saying "Just trust me!". I had to associate both things.
I talked with this friend from the SDA church past saturday, about my idea of leaving... He first was interested in my reasons and we talked for a long time about it. In general he never tried to change my mind, and he exposed his ideas. When he took me to my home at night, I commented about that experience on Sunday at the other church, to see what he would think about it. He seemed a bit surprise at first and then he said that I should take it at 'face value'. He's been at that church before and he says that there he's felt the presence of the Holy Spirit working. Later he sent me an email and told me that if I feel that I have to leave the SDA church to grow in my Christian life and that if it's God leading me, then I should do it. That God has a plan for me, and He can work it out anywhere. Today he told me that he think I'm wise to base my decision on theological roots developed by reading the NT as a whole rather than by picking bits. That the important doctrines are those that shout out to us when we read the whole thing.
So, nearing the end of this long text (Thanks for your patience!) I just want to say that what moves me towards that direction is that I want to be as honest as possible in my life. Before, I would consider myself as a 'progressive adventist' but now I don't see the point in taking what I like and leaving what I don't. I know for sure that I do not agree in several points of the foundamental doctrines that the SDA church as an organization defends, so how could I continue in the church and then still be honest with myself, the brethren and God? And if I continue being an adventist, even if I proclain that I do not believe in those points, I consider that with my membership I support the organization and those doctrines I do not accept... I am still a representative of the SDA church.
Besides, I'm quite sure that it's been God leading me through the years... Coming to England, going to Singapore, meeting with the Christian Union... One of my favourite verses in the Bible, that gives me a lot of encouragement to continue is Philippians 1:6
"being confident of this, that he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus."
I know God has always been there and as long as I let Him work on me, even if it's just a little bit, He can do amazing things.
Now, well, my doubts:
After the initial excitement about my possible decision, I felt somewhat discouraged. I started thinking a bit what was the point of all that... I would like to know if you went through a similar situation when you started thinking about it
Well, although I haven't taken a final decision, it is still on my mind and I'm starting to see more clearly where is God leading me.
It's kind of scary anyway... It's a bit like jumping into a swimming pool without knowing for sure if there is water down there, but trusting anyway that the Person in charge of the pool filled it up to the top. For some reason I don't have a problem about where I will go after leaving, since I suppose that God will lead me somewhere if He's been leading me until now.
But, anyway, it makes you think... Especially about how to do it. I've been thinking quite a bit about how to tell my family. It will be a surprise, for sure, since I have commented nothing so far. My mom would take it nicely, I think, because she was fine even if I converted to any other religion when I went to Singapore... In the end that would be my decision. My father made a similar comment to my sister in law, but anyway I want to be confident on what to tell them if they ask about my reasons. The one who might take it worse is my sister in law... She's the most conservative of all of us, I would say. Nobody else in my family is a SDA and I do not have a SDA wife/girlfriend, so in that sense I feel that this decision is mainly affecting myself.
And I also thought that if I came with some unexpected surprise like this, it might make my mom more interested in Jesus again. Only God knows!
The other thing is, well, the people in the church... I don't want to give the impresion I'm doing it because somebody treated me badly. I have no problems at all with anyone in the SDA church... My home church is in Spain and, well, I've been out of there for quite a long time. But the SDA church here have been great, with many giving me a lot of support and being very warm. So I don't want just to 'vanish'... I feel that would be a bit 'coward' and I want to show my gratitude for all their help and support during all this time. Anyway, I already started 'withdrawing' in some way... I feel dishonest participating in some activities since I'm thinking to leave. And I'm not very sure how to tackle all these points.
As I mentioned before my friend told me that if I'm sure about it, then I should do it and that I should not worry about how the people would react about it or how sad they might be.
Another thing, how should I do to 'drop my membership'? Is it better with a letter or should I do it in person? I'm thinking about doing it during Christmas holidays, since I'm going back to Spain to meet my family. Also, if I finally decide to do it, I don't want to leave it for too long.
So, what do you think? What do you recommend me? I'll be thankful for any kind of response you could provide
Anyway, I think it's time to stop... Sorry, once again, for the long message but I felt that I needed to pour it all. I haven't told all this to many, so I've been keeping it inside of me and feels like too much.
Thank you very much for everything, and God bless you all!
(Message edited by Martin on November 25, 2008)
(Message edited by Martin on November 25, 2008) |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 6039
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 7:39 am: | |
Martin, First of all Welcome to FAF.
I left adventism after reading the New Testament and always recommend to anyone who is contemplating leaving to read the NT without anything else.
Pray about all your questions. God will give you the answer that is best for you.
I did not have to write any letter to ask that my name be taken off the church books. My name was removed many years ago after my divorce. So I cannot advise you on a letter.
I can pray for you and will do that. Our awesome God will let you know what and when to do whatever He wants you to do. Just keep praying and studying the Bible.
Diana L |
Mommamayi
Registered user
Username: Mommamayi
Post Number: 678
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 10:57 am: | |
Martin, Welcome!
I can relate very much to your journey, as I know so many others on here can. It was definitely quite a process for me too, and the studying and decision process took months.
I too was worried about offending my fellow church members and friends. I went to each person I felt I was quite close to in the church and told them I was leaving, and why. That it was nothing personal, it was doctrinal, and I wanted them to hear it from me. Most were so completely surprised, that they had very little to say, initially, in response. Their questions, and attempts to reclaim me came later.
There are a number of examples of people's exit letters on this site that you can read to help you draft your own.
Thank you for introducing yourself and sharing your story. I have many warm memories and good friends from the first 40 years of my life in Adventism, but I can't tell you how much my life has improved in the past year since I left. It's wonderful! You won't regret it, and you are right, God will continue to lead you and help you find a new church family.
~Diana C. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 9050
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 11:44 am: | |
Dear Martin,
I am so glad you've joined us! You've come to the right place; most of us here relate deeply with your story. God has been at work in you; and your much-loved text is so true: He will complete what He has begun in you!
Yes, most of us have gone through that deep doubt and depression as we contemplated leaving. There is a reason for it—actually, there are a couple of reasons: one is sociological, and one is spiritual. The sociological reason is that Adventism is more than merely a church affiliation. It is our identity. Because of our uniqueness as Adventists, we have a tight, inbred community, and we literally "become" Adventist. When we leave, we go through the five stages of grief: denial, bargaining, depression, anger, and eventual acceptance.
Some of us experience one or more of the five stages more intensely; I've often shared that I camped in depression for quite a while, and Richard experienced more intense anger at having been deceived and for having paid tithe and double tithe all those years! (Make no mistake; I experienced anger over that as well, but the depression was what "hooked" my emotions.)
The spiritual reason we go through this depression is that Adventism truly has a spiritual claim on us. I remember when I realized, in the process of my conversation with my then-11-year-old son, that since Adventism was based on untruth, Satan did have a claim on the Adventist system. Ultimately we do have to understand that what we are leaving is a spiritual power, not merely a set of intellectual ideas formulated into a system of theology.
If Adventism were merely erroneous information, leaving would be easy because we would merely change our minds. It is deeply difficult because the spirit of Adventism, which is a very real spirit of deception, has a "home" in our spirit, and leaving requires us to face this difficult but powerful reality and renounce it, asking the Lord Jesus to fill the place it held in our hearts with His Spirit.
Nothing that is deceptive or untrue is spiritually neutral. Everything is either founded in the domain of darkness or the kingdom of God's beloved Son (see Col 1:123). If we are committed to an organization that is founded on a lie, we have become vulnerable to the spirit of deception behind that organization. This is the reason the decision to leave Adventism is so difficult. We literally encounter spiritual warfare.
The antidote to the doubt and depression is two-fold: pray, asking the Lord Jesus to hold you in truth and reality and to ground you deeply in Himself and His word, and return to Scripture, reading and (and/or memorizing) the promises that assure you that you are secure in Jesus: John 5:24; Ephesians 1:13-14; Ephesians 2:1-10; Romans 3:21; Romans 8; etc etc.
Your assessment that to stay is to endorse what you know you do not believe was the bottom line point of decision for Richard and me as well. Even though there were certain things we could sort-of "go along with" at that time, the bottom line of Adventist doctrines we no longer believed. We knew that to stay and "make a difference" would be dishonest because we didn't actually endorse the denomination's "bottom line". We realized that we would be deeply dishonest to stay, and we asked ourselves how we could expect our sons to tell us the truth if they watched us compromise our lives by staying in a church which they already knew we didn't agree with.
The integrity issue is what finally brought us out.
You can know that many people will not understand. That just goes with the territory. Even though you express yourself clearly, they will choose to interpret your leaving as "being hurt" because they literally cannot wrap their minds around the concept of someone leaving for doctrinal reasons. Their common "default analysis" is a form of denial: they insist that people leave because they are hurt or angry. You can just KNOW that this will likely happen—and it's OK! If they were actually to accept your statements and "hear" you accurately, they would have to begin to deal with their own cognitive dissonance, and they don't want to acknowledge or feel that confusion. They don't WANT to KNOW! (At least not yet!)
I do recommend writing a letter to the church. It is an important rite of passage, and it is a clear statement not only for yourself to make but for the church elders to hear. You can read some examples of letters of exit on the Stories page of this website. You can also read there the experiences of many former Adventists as they grappled with realizing Adventism was false. You can access them here: http://www.formeradventist.com/stories/index.html
Martin, I will be praying for you. Our Father has revealed Himself to you and is calling you to Himself and to the freedom of His gospel. He will not leave you, and He will open up doors in front of you for you to walk through. You can totally trust Him to guide you out, to guide HOW you leave, and to free you from the bondage of doubt and deception and fear.
Praise God He has opened your eyes! You are experiencing a real-life miracle.
Praying for you,
Colleen |
Bskillet
Registered user
Username: Bskillet
Post Number: 23
Registered: 8-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 12:28 pm: | |
"they don't want to acknowledge or feel that confusion."
When I was an SDA (I guess technically still am 'cause I haven't written my letter yet), I remember how horribly confused I was. But I would repress the confusion that would come when I would read things like 2 Cor 5. or Heb 9 or Phillipians 1.
As you leave EGW to follow Jesus, that veil Paul spoke of in 2 Cor. 3 is lifted. When I was an SDA, I used to think the formers were just a bunch of angry people who had been hurt and were reacting out of bitterness. But Adventists just can't understand what it is like to have the veil lifted, until it happens to them. |
Martin
Registered user
Username: Martin
Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 2:22 pm: | |
Thank you very much for your answers! I'll be thinking about all that you have said today.
Thank you Colleen for those texts... I'll take a look at them before going to sleep.
And thank you very much for your prayers. I really appreciate it. It's great to see people sharing their experiences and giving support to others, even if thousands of kilometers separate us. We can be people with very different backgrounds and cultures... But there's something that unites us: God and His amazing grace. |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 1537
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 3:43 pm: | |
Hi Martin,
A hearty FAF welcome! It is no accident nor coincidence that you arrived on this forum. From before the creation of the world, God has had a plan for your life. He knows your name, heartaches, joys, and He even knows the very number of hairs on your head (Luke 12:7). Indeed, we serve an awesome, prayer-answering, sovereign God. Yes, as you mentioned, God will complete the work that He has already begun in you. You can count on Him!
It is of utmost importance to know that God never goes on a rescue mission that fails. It is our gracious and sovereign God who places a longing desire for Jesus within our formerly rebellious, stony hearts. Truly, we cannot choose what we do not desire. Salvation is from the Lord alone, and all the honor and glory belongs to Him. Salvation is a gift to be received, not a goal to achieved. Surely, God will continue to abundantly bless your quest for biblical truth.
In His power and for His glory,
Dennis Fischer |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 32
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 6:48 pm: | |
Greetings Martin,
Sooo glad you joined us here . . . I love Dennis' comment about God never goes on a rescue mission that fails . . . love it . . . for we are all truely carried to safety/life on His able shoulders . . . Come grow with us . . .
Blessings,
JRT |
Joyfulheart
Registered user
Username: Joyfulheart
Post Number: 354
Registered: 10-2006
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 7:59 pm: | |
Welcome to the forum, Martin! It's always such a joy to see the Lord drawing people to the truth of the Word of God!
I can so relate to your story. The people were what made leaving so incredibly hard. One of the things that finally made me realize I was wrong to stay was a comment from a wise pastor. He said, I was useless to God in the situation where I was. I couldn't really honestly tell people where I went to church because I didn't want people following me there. I couldn't participate in evangelism for the same reasons. I couldn't obey the great commission.
The integrity issue was also weighing heavily on my heart. People said, "Happy Sabbath!" and I responded. "Hi! Great to see you!" or "What a beautiful day!" or whatever I could think of.
I was a hypocrite of the worst kind. It's only now that it is becoming clear. It is such a relief to be free to believe what I believe to be truth, express it and teach it without fear.
I no longer have to listen to sermons on edge asking God to protect my mind from any falsehood being taught.
I'm praying for you Martin, that God will give you wisdom and lead you into all truth. I believe with all my heart that He will.
My only advice is to stay in the Word and check everything out.
Many blessings as you seek to follow Christ alone,
Joyfulheart |
Gcfrankie
Registered user
Username: Gcfrankie
Post Number: 244
Registered: 1-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 8:39 pm: | |
Welcome Martin,
I also have not as yet written my letter to the sda church yet but have been gone for over a year. The book of Galatians is what raised the veil from my eyes and is my favorite book. When Satan tries to make me feel guilty about leaving the sda church I always go back and read what Paul says about the veil and I certainly do not want that again. Also the great assurance from Jesus that we are saved without our having to do anything to earn it.
Praying for you and ask the Lord to wrap His loving arms around you.
Gail |
Daisie_girl
Registered user
Username: Daisie_girl
Post Number: 53
Registered: 9-2008
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 25, 2008 - 10:08 pm: | |
Martin,
Grace and peace to you in the name of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ!! Thank you for sharing your testimony!! I cannot begin to tell you how much I love hearing how God lifted that veil, awakened His everlasting redemption and wooed you to the place of perfect freedom! It is so encouraging to me, to us, to hear how God is still at work even when we may not be able to see it!!
I will be praying for your discussion with your family and friends about what God has done! Because, simply put, God did set you free! It's all about Him and it's something that no one can argue against!!
Take rest in knowing that He will give you the discernment and wisdom that you need in your approach! And whatever the turn out, He has you and your family in His sovereign and most protective hands!!
Your Sister in Christ |
Martin
Registered user
Username: Martin
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2008
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 26, 2008 - 2:10 am: | |
Once again, thank you very much for all your answers... The response to my post has been much more than I expected!
I was a bit afraid that my long message would 'scare' some people away I came to learn that, generally, on Internet forums you need to be concise in your writing if you want people to read it... But I'm happy seeing that you have taken your time to read it all and make some comments. I really appreciate it!
God bless you all! |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 569
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, December 14, 2008 - 7:22 pm: | |
Martin; I want to welcome you to the forum too.
Sorry I'm so late. I don't get around to reading everything, so I must have missed this thread.
Dianne |
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