| Author | Message | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 101 Registered: 2-2006  |
I'm not sure if this post belongs in this "Members Only" area or in the "Discussion" area, or perhaps in the "Recycle Bin". I know I am probably a pain to some of you but maybe this will give you a greater appreciation for MY frustration. I will assume I am pretty much correct in saying that, for those who have left SDAism, you would want to say to SDAs: 'I know that YOU believe in Ellen White's writings, but let's just set them aside, and if you can prove your ideas to me using the Bible and only the Bible, then I will be convinced.' Pretty much on the money?? Okay, here is where I'M coming from: 'I know that YOU believe in the Bible, but let's just set the Bible aside, and if you can prove your ideas to me using logic, reason and common sense, then I will be convinced.' It's like we're talking two different languages, and neither side knows the other's language. So, when I try to explain my thoughts, I tend to get misunderstood, and vice versa. I just throw it out there by way of explanation.... not asking for any answers. And, well, I'm not really sure why I have this burning need to be understood, but I do. And I always have. And maybe it's because that need has never been satisfied that I just keep on trying, over and over and over again. (Isn't that the definition of insanity?)  But thanks for your friendship. I know everyone on here cares, and I appreciate it. Joyce | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6086 Registered: 3-2004  |
Joyce, In my 12 step programs it is said that when I keep on doing the same thing in the same way and expect different results, that is insanity. Pretty much what you said. Every one wants to be understood. That is a human need. I cannot convince anyone of my ideas about God. That is God's job. I can only tell you why I believe and leave the rest up to God. I am glad you came back here. Your questions make me think. All I can say to you is keep coming back asksing questions and don't leave until the miracle happens to you. Diana L | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 744 Registered: 7-2005  |
Joyce, has someone or something proven to you beyond a shadow of a doubt that the Bible is completely false, untrustworthy, and even dangerous? Is there irrefutable evidence this is so? Do you read where Jesus says He is the only way to come to the Father and know deep inside your innermost being that you are reading nothing more than myth and magic? Can you prove with irrefutable evidence that the Bible is wrong here? Thank you for your honesty and openness. I appreciate you more than you can possibly know. Honestwitness | ||
| Bb Registered user Username: Bb Post Number: 298 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hi Joyce, I thinks there is a type of person out there who is wired to want everything to have logic and explanation. I think it is a big obstacle to having an experience of faith in God. It must be hard to struggle with this. Even people who have that faith have moments of doubt and confusion. What brings you back to faith is the dependence on Him and giving up your will to know what's going on, i.e. becoming putty in His hands. I so much want to control what's going on around me and it was only when things got out of control and every day was a new challenge (to put it mildly) did I say the words "O.k. God, do what you want with me, I can't handle this", then I felt the peace of not having to "know" everything and just let it go. He did amazing things after that point. Now, today I am again struggling with issues and having to start over again, but my memory of how He worked in my life the last time helps me to be stronger. I hope this helped. Sometimes just sharing experiences is the best thing for me! Bb | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9077 Registered: 12-2003  |
Joyce, I do understand your need to be understood. That need has driven me pretty intensely, too. The issue with the Bible is not that is is just one more "holy book". Ellen White claimed to base her stuff "on the Bible", so she herself challenged SDAs to consider her books commentary and the Bible as the original source. Leaving her aside is acknowledged to be leaving aside a secondary source. The Bible, however, makes the claim that it is all inspired by God through his servants the prophets and the "holy men of God" (2 Timothy 3:16). It claims to be the special revelation of God to humanity, and Jesus is the final word and revelation of God (Hebrews 1:2). It is our Primary Source. We cannot leave the Bible aside to "prove" our position because the Bible is the place where God reveals the truth about Himself. Creation witnesses to His invisible attributes, his divine nature and eternal power so that all men are without excuse (Romans 1:18-20), but nature does not reveal the details of salvation. The Lord Jesus did that, and we would not know them apart from God's own revelation of His intentions recorded through the Torah and the prophets (accompanied by the literal presence of God in Israel in the form of the shekinah glory that rested in the Holy of Holies) and in the life of Jesus and the apostolic teaching of Paul and the other apostles recorded in the NT. The Bible is confirmed by the Holy Spirit who Himself teaches us, but we cannot set the Bible aside because it is the window into reality that, for millennia, has been the foundation of morality, intellectual and spiritual clarity, and faith. No other "holy book" describes a relationship with God in which the human does not have to work to please God. In every religion except authentic Christianity people are expected to work hard to attain favor with God and rewards later. Christianity is the only system of faith that has a God who does the work, takes the wrath, bears the cost and price of humanity's sin, and restores humans to more than they can be on their own. The Triune God seeks us, rescues us, forgives us, and makes us one with Him. We cannot set aside the Bible because it, not we, contain the knowledge of God which He has personally revealed. Colleen | ||
| Daisie_girl Registered user Username: Daisie_girl Post Number: 57 Registered: 9-2008 |
Joyce, Thank you for your pure honesty and vulnerability on this forum! And thank you for asking questions! I want to recommend a couple of books that can logically, historically, and physically explain why Jesus was really God, why the Bible is really true. I don't know if this is exactly what you're looking for, but it may help! They're both by Lee Strobel, a former reporter for the Chicago Tribune! Incredible writer who was indeed an unbeliever for a long time. He wanted facts, reasons, logic about this "Jesus Christ" and the big deal of Christianity! He didn't want to take the Bible for just the Bible. You may say he was a skeptic - but it was his skepticism that let him explore the factual, logical and historical defense of Jesus Christ! I highly recommend the book! The first is called "Case for Christ". Easy read! Very analytical. He interviews countless professors, theologians, and pens the book in a journalistic fashion. He's written two others in this same format: "The Case for the Real Jesus" and "The Case for Faith". I hope these help you along! I find them fascinating, and being curious and wanting facts myself, the book documents exactly what I was looking for! Godspeed, Joyce!! | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1218 Registered: 5-2007  |
Joyce, I am a "practical" person who thinks in terms of science and technology. And, I see no contradiction with the facts of pure science and God's written word of the Holy Bible. My many years of research in various fields of science has only confirmed my faith in God and his written word. Your questions are good ones. And if they are coming from an honest heart, God will give you the answers you are looking for. Phil | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 102 Registered: 2-2006 |
Hello, everyone! Beware... this is a long one!! Honestwitness, in answer to your question, no, of course no one has proved to me that the Bible is "completely false, untrustworthy, and even dangerous." That is precisely my point. As a human being my only option is to make a decision, using my own mind, as to what I can believe about the Bible. Oftentimes it seems to me that Christians miss this point. They seem to just assume because of their faith that everyone accepts the Bible as the ultimate and/or only guide for living. Of course this isn't true. Just ask any Hindu, Muslim, etc. Every culture has it's own traditions, its own reasons for believing in certain ways, and scriptures that substantiate this. This is all normal and natural and what frustrates me is that Christians automatically take for granted what they were taught--that Christianity and the Bible are THE ONLY truth. And, of course, that must necessarily make the others false. But, not so fast... This is only true if you subscribe to a black-and-white way of thinking that demands that every issue be either/or. Now, believe me, I realize that many, many people do believe exactly this way. Just try to keep in mind--I don't. That's all I'm saying. I see that there are many shades of gray, many ways of perceiving the world, and--dare I say it: NO ONE WAY HAS TO BE RIGHT. <gasp> There, I said it. So I'm not saying you're 'wrong' if you do believe in a more black-and-white fashion. I don't need to 'make you wrong' in order to hold my own beliefs. If yours work for you and make sense to you, and you don't use them to intimidate or antagonize those who disagree with you, then that's great--I'm completely happy for you. But again, I know that my sort of reasoning is very uncomfortable to those who don't agree with it. Let's try a concrete example. Say you think that 2+2=4 and I say, well, I don't but that's okay... it really doesn't matter. Now of course we all would agree that that's crazy because mathematics is concrete and absolute, by definition. But what I'm saying is, not every area of thought IS absolute. In my opinion, I think the realm of philosophy/religion/spirituality is one of those areas that, BY DEFINITION, is not. Naturally people may (and do) disagree with me. But that doesn't make me want to change over to their way of thinking. I've spent 40+ years pondering this stuff, and I've come up with what makes the most sense to me... for the moment. I very much enjoy the freedom of this type of thought process, and it seems to be more natural, TO ME. That's why I'm always studying, always learning--because there's always a new idea to explore, a new thought process to try out. I love learning--it's my drug of choice! I do realize (although it's not me) that some people are 'wired' to prefer a more solid, absolute world where everything is neat and tidy and definable and gives them more security. I understand the appeal of this type of world--I just don't think we live in it. I'm glad to see some of you say you appreciate my questions, that they make you think. For me, that's really what it's all about. That's all life is about really. It seems to me that I think and think and wonder and wonder, and always I come up with some new ideas, but the beauty of it (as well as the frustration sometimes) is that it's never complete. As long as we live, there are always new ideas to explore. The fun never ends!! So, here's what I'm saying to you, if this makes any sense at all: I don't want to 'prove' the veracity of the Bible, nor refute it. That's missing the point, my point anyway. For someone else, that is THE point, I know. But that's okay, we're all different. Colleen, am I understanding you right? Are you saying that because of the claims that the Bible makes for itself, we should therefore necessarily accept those claims? I think that may be where we're getting into trouble. It's one thing to say, "I accept the claims of the Bible" and base your life around it, if that's your choice. But that is not 'proof'. It is simply a human choice. Again, not bad, not good, but by definition, it's not evidence or proof. It's only a choice. And if it works for you, that's great by me. I have no beef with Christians and their beliefs per se. (Except for the one that says, 'ours is the only right way'.) I just don't agree with them when they try to tell me, "I have the 'proof' of what I consider the Bible to be," and then offer up the Bible itself as that proof. That's choice, not proof. I sense that they think I am searching for an absolute provable truth, but I'm not. As I said above, I don't think we can reach an absolute truth--questions beget more questions. (Might this be exactly why the SDA church discourages it's flock from asking questions??) For example, your statement, "We cannot leave the Bible aside to "prove" our position because the Bible is the place where God reveals the truth about Himself," is, I believe, what is known as "begging the question", i.e., "using statements which assume the truth that one is attempting to prove." So, while you can certainly say, "I have faith," or "I have chosen to believe" or "it seems reasonable to me that...", you can't accurately say, "I believe in the Bible, because of what it says about itself,"--not if you want to stay within the bounds of logic. Now, you may not want to, because you just may prefer a different approach. That's not 'wrong'--it's just not MY way. For me, the human mind is all I have, and I am confident enough to think that I am just as capable of using mine as anyone else. And, I think that if indeed there is some kind of God, He/She/It would be, by (my)definition understanding and accepting of that--in fact, that God probably designed it that way. Of course, again, that's ME defining these words for myself, rather than using, say, the Bible's definition. I have merely picked the one that made more sense to me. I had this sort of conversation with a friend once, very devout Baptist man, believed absolutely in the Bible. After considerable discussion, I finally suggested and he agreed that the underlying basis for his entire faith system was an unconditional acceptance of the Bible in a literal sense, and this was not based on anything but his choice, his 'faith' if you will. He didn't want or ask for any kind of proof. That Bible was his foundation. I understood that. It's his choice. I can't fault him for that. But, my point was that, while many Christians say their religion is based on God, it's really based on the Bible. In effect, the Bible IS their God. I know it's a subtle difference, and for someone who sees the Bible as THE WORD OF GOD, this difference doesn't matter. But to me, it makes a BIG difference. I often ponder the Universe and think, "Well, there must be some sort of 'first cause'--there seems to be, in the Universe an indication of Intelligence, Consciousness, Intent, etc. So, I certainly don't think it just randomly fell into place, or popped into existence from nothing---but that idea simply does not necessarily lead me to conclude that, "Therefore, the First Cause MUST be the God of the Bible." Why would it? Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. Maybe some little known tribe in inner Mongolia is closer to the truth of the matter than the Hebrews were. But how would we ever know? We can't. I am by turns, amazed, astounded, puzzled, awestruck by the majesty and mystery of the Universe. But it just doesn't lead me to the God of the Bible. That's just too constricted for me--I don't see any reason to conclude the God of the Bible happens to be THE REAL God, simply because it was the one I was raised on. There are many, many schools of thought about God/the Universe etc. I want to dig into and study 'em all!! And no, I don't worry that 'the Real God' (if He/She/It exists) condemns me for my thinking. I doesn't seem likely to me that the 'God of the Universe' would be in the business of condemnation of a perfectly honest and sincere person for asking questions and coming up with a different answer than someone else. That is one example of where I do differ with the Bible. I don't think the Real God would make Jesus the only way. I think that's a human viewpoint. The New Testament writers and early Christians certainly apparently believed it. As a 21st century person, I don't find that very meaningful. (As an aside, if indeed there is a God who is that narrow-minded and exclusive, I can honestly say, I wouldn't want to spend an eternity with him anyway! So, it really wouldn't matter if he did condemn me. Sometimes I think the only reason some people 'believe' in the Bible is for 'fire insurance.' The idea of hell is pretty scary, but so is spending an eternity in bondage!) Daisie_girl, I do own a couple of books by Lee Strobel, but I haven't gotten around to reading them. (If you could see how many books I have, you would understand why! ) But one of these days I hope to get a lot of my books read. Especially right now, as I am not working, I am getting a chance to do some of the reading I've always wanted to do. Sorry for the length of this post... maybe I need to get a job!! Joyce | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1220 Registered: 5-2007 |
Joyce, There is no middle ground. The Bible sets a standard whereby it is either totally true or totally false.
Central to the Christian faith is the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. If there are other "paths to God" then there was no reason for the death of Christ on the Cross.
This passage declares two things: 1. If Jesus did not rise from the grave then all mankind is lost. 2. If there is no resurrection then Christian faith is in vain. There are three testimonies in my life that point to Jesus Christ: 1. The Bible is consistently true. 2. All of science and creation point to a Creator. 3. God has performed miracles in my life and in those around me. Not the least of which is; he has put love in my life where there was none. Phil | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2539 Registered: 10-2004  |
Joyce, You wrote:
But if Jesus is who He claimed to be ("the Real God"!), then how could there be any other way to God than Jesus Christ, if there IS no other god except for Jesus Christ? Jeremy | ||
| Justdodie Registered user Username: Justdodie Post Number: 104 Registered: 2-2006 |
But Phil, you can't say the Bible is what it says it is, just because it says so. What kind of proof is that? Jeremy, I stand by what I said: "I don't think the Real God would make Jesus the only way." That's just my opinion based on my idea of what God might be. It has nothing to do with what Jesus did or did not say, or what the authors of the Bible did or did not say about him. Are you basing your argument on an assumption that "Jesus is who He claimed to be"? What if he wasn't? Isn't that possible? Couldn't he have been wrong? Couldn't the authors of the Bible have been wrong? | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 1543 Registered: 7-2003  |
Joyce, You are certainly correct that there are some areas where no one has to be right or wrong. For instance, a statement like, "My favorite color is red" does not in any way invalidate someone else's statement that their favorite color is blue. You are equally correct when you point out that there are some areas, such as 2+2=4, where there cannot be a multiplicity of answers. The central tenant of Christianity is one such area where there cannot be a multiplicity of opinions and all those opinions still be correct. Either Jesus is the Way, the Truth, the Life, and the only way to come to the God or He is not. If one person says that Jesus is the only way to God and another says that there are many ways to God, both persons cannot be right about their assertion because each assertion is a direct contradiction to the other's assertion. It appears that Jesus deliberately made sure that we couldn't have a multiplicity of opinions about Him. Jesus made such outrageous claims for Himself that he didn't leave us many options. Jesus was either: a) A completely crazy nut who needed to be locked up. b) An immoral, untrustworthy, liar and manipulator out to further his own nefarious purposes for his own gain. or c) Exactly who he said He was; the Son of God, the long awaited Messiah, the great "I AM" Yahweh of the Old Testament, the Way, the Truth, the Life, and the only way to the Father. Personally, I don't see any evidence in any of the accounts of Jesus' life, deeds, or words for either a. or b. being the case. However, I think there is at least one excellent proof for c. being the correct answer. In His resurrection from the dead Jesus proved He was who He said He was and He could do what He said He would do. He proved that He is the Life and the Resurrection. I think there are several strong intellectual reasons for believeing the resurrection is a historical fact. I won't go into those here. The point I am making is it is possible to investigate the evidence and come to the logical conclusion that the evidence points towards the claims of Christianity. It is, however, not possible to really understand what Christianity claims and then logically say that it is no more wrong or right than any other belief system. Christianity is firmly founded upon the bedrock of a historical event where a man claimed to be the savior Messiah and the only way to God and then rose from the dead to prove it. If that founding event didn't happen then Jesus is a fraud and Christianity is a sham. It's worth investigating to see where the evidence points. Chris | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1740 Registered: 8-2004  |
If the Bible is wrong, it is abysmally wrong. If Jesus isn't who he says then he was either lying or delusional. If he was lying then why depend on what he said about anything. If he was delusional then there's definitely no reason to take his word for anything. On the other hand, if he is who he said he is there is plenty of reason to listen and learn. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 1222 Registered: 5-2007 |
Joyce, I listed a number of "proofs" about who my Savior is, not just what the Bible says. The Bible contains a multitude of ways to "test" what is says. We, just like Moses, can test his word. And then, all the other things I listed are simply the "frosting on the cake". Phil | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 555 Registered: 7-2007 |
Joyce; by your own admission, you have not experienced God's palpable love and presence. Well, I never did either when I was an Adventist. Never never never! Things changed when I became a Christian though. God revealed His love and presence over and over again. I actually have a relationship with Him now. If you humbly submit yourself to the God of the universe, He will bring you into Christianity too. Don't you have any curiosity as to the fulfillment of Bible prophecy? Aren't you the least curious how the tiny nation of Israel became a nation again in 1948? Aren't you curious how it stood up against all the big Islamic nations around it which would like nothing better than to wipe it off the globe? Aren't you curious how that little nation defeated three Arab powers in 6 days in 1967? Do you think that's just accident, or do you think that perhaps God had something to do with that? (Actually the existence of the Jews proves God exists, just by itself. Every other nation that existed back then was assimilated.) It sounds like you believe a bit like Richard Dawkins (have you seen "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed"?), at least what he said about God at the end of the movie in one of the interviews of him by Ben Stein. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9080 Registered: 12-2003 |
Adding to the excellent answers already offered, Joyce, I just want to say that my belief in the Bible is not based upon the circular reasoning that says "The Bible is true because it says it's true". Rather, my belief in it is based upon evidence. I didn't just decide to believe. The Bible is literally confirmed by God Himself. Because, as has been stated, the Bible makes claims about Jesus that render Him either delusional or very God, we cannot dismiss them as "maybe, maybe not". We have to deal with them, and we cannot sidestep them without our avoidance being potentially fatal. Either the Bible reveals Life or it is dangerously toxic. It is not "neutral". But we cannot evaluate its truth on our own. What do we know of eternity and a Triune God? Nada. Unless He reveals Himself. And that revelation is the key. God Himself seeks and finds us. Of course, we can turn a deaf ear and refuse to seriously consider any claims that He has already spoken through the Bible. We can refuse to "go there" when we follow our wonder at nature and choose instead to revert to our own mentation to block our longing for something we don't have. But if we open ourselves to the possibility that He is real and will keep His promises, He does meet us. He does reveal Himself to us. And experiencing Him goes hand-in-hand with comprehending His word. The two—meeting Jesus personally and understanding the Bible—are inseparable. I totally trust the Bible because I know Jesus. He is real. But I know I can't convince you of this fact. It is something He and you must explore together…and you must be willing to know, even if it means changing your worldview if you learn something new. And Joyce, if you have the Lee Strobel books, I think—given the intensity of your questions and your internal angst give the fact that you have suffered a major life upheaval—that these books would be important to put on your immediate "READ" list. Ditto for that sermon to which I linked yesterday on another thread. I know you are reading volumes already, but it seems that, in the interest of covering all the bases, these are things that could be really helpful and would give you some new perspectives to consider. I am praying for you, Joyce. Colleen | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 375 Registered: 10-2006 |
Hi Joyce, You mentioned reading the book of Hebrews. May I also suggest that you read the book of John. Ask God to show you if He is there. Read all the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John.) I also highly suggest a book you might want to work through. It's called God are you there? Do you care? Do you know about me? By Kay Arthur. It's a Bible study that I believe - well... let's just see how God might use it as you seek absolute truth about God. There is also a WONDERFUL book called Me, the Professor, Fuzzy and the Meaning of Life. It looks logically at whether God is real or not. It's an easy and fun - yet profound book. You can get it on sale at www.answersingenesis.com for 5.99. It has a CD that comes with it. You sound like a deep thinker and I think you will really enjoy it. The also sell a book called Christ, Above all Gods that discusses the exclusivity of Jesus as the only way of salvation. The last book I want to recommend is Mere Christianity by C.S. Lewis. C.S. Lewis was an atheist lawyer who decided to see whether God was real or a hoax. Another book he wrote that you might enjoy is called Surprised By Joy. Joyce, I've given you some suggestions for books because I think you'll enjoy them and find them very helpful, but really believe you need most to read the gospels (Matthew, Mark, Luke and John) and meet Jesus through them. I'm so confident that as you read the gospel of John you will meet a God you never knew about as an Adventist. So many Adventists come away from Adventism without faith because of the stuff we were taught about God. So much of the things we learned is not biblical truth! We've all had to relearn stuff. In that sense, you're no different than we are. We have just studied the Bible by itself a little longer and met Jesus there. He drew us to Himself and changed our lives. I believe you will have a similar story or you wouldn't be here asking these questions. I agree, with the others that A Case For Faith and A Case for Christ are books you will find helpful. Joyce, the reason I believe is because I know Jesus. I met Him as I read His Word. He lives in my heart and empowers me with the Holy Spirit. Ask Him if He's there and tell Him outloud that you want to follow Him if He is real. Jesus is a historical figure. Secular sources all say He existed. I agree with the others that He was either a liar because He claimed to be God if He wasn't, a lunatic for letting Himself be rejected and killed for His claims or truly LORD of all. Jesus fulfilled every prophecy about the coming Messiah. Details about His birth, life and death have like 1 in 100000000000 chance of being fulfilled in one person. Jesus is knowable. He is not hiding. Tell Him you want to know truth. Tell Him you will be His follower if He shows you the truth. I believe with all my heart that He will not let you down. Feelings are fickle. Don't trust them. Tell God you want truth above all else - and to know if He is real. I'm confident you will not be disappointed. I have been and will continue to be praying for you. Joyfulheart | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 1306 Registered: 6-2006  |
Joyce, when I first started about 4ish years ago, I had this same discussion with a lady, who was a former SDA and a lesbian. She insisted the same things you're saying that the "real" God would not have Jesus be the only way. Was that you? My question to you would be, who is your idea of the "real" God? Is he from the Bible, or the Koran, or is he Buddah? What is the source of your information on the "real" God? I guess what I'd like to know is how do you know that your idea of God is the "real" God? Thanks! Leigh Anne | ||
| Jrt Registered user Username: Jrt Post Number: 40 Registered: 10-2008 |
Joyce, Wow, a woman after my own heart . . . You are asking GOOD questions and wrestling with the answers posed. As I read your question, "set the Bible aside, and if you can prove your ideas to me using logic, reason and common sense, then I will be convinced." - I thought of something that I experienced when I was questioning the existence of God . . . I gave God one year to show up - if He was real . . . and then I decided I needed to spend that year really searching . . . In that year I came across Blaise Pascal's wager . . . the famous mathematician . . . using logic he decided that to choose Christianity was the most logical choice one could make . . . You see, he wagered, that if God was "real" then to choose to believe in Him resulted in eternal life - to not choose God resulted in eternal death and only the experience one has on earth . . . if God is not real . . . and you choose to live as if He were . . . you will still have life on earth (albeit - a good enough one) . . . or if God didn't exist and you choose to live your life as if He didn't exist - then you have only this life with the pleasures it might afford you . . . The best wager, according to Pascal is to choose to live as if God exists - then you have a win/win situation . . . either eternal life or a life that is "good" on earth . . . For me, at the time, it seemed to make logical sense . . . Since then, I've come to choose Christ, and the life I have in Christ is so sweet . . . not that I don't experience pain, disappointment and other things . . . but this journey with God is worth it!!! Lastly, the Bible, . . . no other book is quite like it . . . the Koran, the . . etc. . . . you see it was written over several thousand years with several/many authors and yet it has one main theme running through it . . . God and Christ and the Holy Spirit . . . Someone once said, . . . the Bible would be like a grenade blowing up a large library and in the rubble are pieces of books and papers neatly stacked in perfect logical order to make an abridged dictionary . . . coincidence is just not good enough to answer the logical, tight, concise theme of the Bible with so many authors over thousands of years and through many different cultures . . . My challenge to you Joyce is "Do you have the courage to see what keeps you from knowing God and knowing Him more fully?" If so . . . then continue to read the Bible asking that if the God of Christianity is really real . . . to show up as you read . . . With the books of scripture mentioned above I might add the poetry book . . . Psalms . . . and notice how others wrestled with God and His existence. Thank you for asking the "all-important questions"! Blessings, JRT | ||
| Benevento Registered user Username: Benevento Post Number: 248 Registered: 4-2005 |
Joyce--A question I have, and perhaps I have missed the answer is: Do you simply question the existance of God to the point where you cannot ask Him to help your unbelief? If you ask God for understanding of his ways he will give you answers and perhaps send help. I can attest to that!! Lee Strobels books The Case for Christ and The Case for Faith were suggested before-well written, and compelling. he resisted, did not want to believe--puts up many arguments against believing--with the answers he found. Peggy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2540 Registered: 10-2004 |
Here is a link to some short Youtube videos of Lee Strobel also, that you might be interested in watching, Joyce: http://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=%22lee+strobel%22&search_type=&aq=f Jeremy | ||
| Snowboardingmom Registered user Username: Snowboardingmom Post Number: 513 Registered: 11-2005 |
Those are great videos, Jeremy! The short one of his personal testimony touched me. Thanks for sharing! Grace |
