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Bskillet
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Post Number: 52
Registered: 8-2008
Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 11:29 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

One of the little proofs I always thought was cute was the one from Revelation the SDAs use to demonstrate that they are the true remnant church.

To identify the true church, they first go to Rev 12:17: "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Then they go to Rev 19:10: "And I fell at his feet to worship him. But he said to me, 'See that you do not do that! I am your fellow servant, and of your brethren who have the testimony of Jesus. Worship God! For the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.'"

They then say, "The identifying marks of the remnant church are that 1) they keep the commandments of God (meaning ALL of the Ten Commandments), and 2) they have the testimony of Jesus. Revelation says the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy. Therefore, the remnant church has the spirit of prophecy, meaning it has a prophet. We have a prophet. Her name is Ellen White.

"Thus, the remnant church keeps the Ten Commandments and has a prophet."

Notice how they moved Jesus out of the church? The "testimony of Jesus" is no longer identifying for true Christians, in this proof. Jesus is gone, replaced with EGW.

It is akin to multiplying (1/3) by (3/2) and noticing the 3s cancel out. In this case, "the testimony of Jesus" cancels out, so to speak, and is replaced with their prophetess, Ellen G. White.

When my wife and I recently attended a Revelation Seminar our church hosted, this was one of the things that got us to really take a harder look at Adventism.
Jonvil
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Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 12:09 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yep! No matter how much they huff and puff their claim to be people of the Bible their beliefs put the word of Ellen before scripture. There are some Adventists who claim this is not true because they don't do that in THEIR church but the result of the denominations official position gives her priority.

It is amazing how many claim to ignore her and the IJ, two main pillars of Adventism. Why do they remain Adventist? Oh! of course, the Sabbath the Sabbath the Sabbath, ad nauseam.

Forget the other nine, if I could find just one Adventist who truly kept the Sabbath I would deem him to be that one perfect person God needs in order to be vindicated.

I truly feel sorrow for these folks as they go through life with no assurance of salvation and no hope.

John Douglas
Bskillet
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Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 12:17 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Another thing they do is, whenever you confront them about an obviously un-Biblical teaching in EGW, they say, "Well, it isn't in the Fundamental Beliefs." Problem is, #18 in the FBs states that she's "the Lord's Messenger" and "an authoritative source of truth," so everything she taught is denominational theology by the implication of #18.

On top of that, the SDA leadership teaches things above and beyond the FBs, and to deny those are official SDA doctrines, when they come from the top SDA leadership, is like denying a Papal Bull is true Catholic teaching.
Flyinglady
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Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 1:14 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Because of FB #18 what EGW writes is fair game.
What she wrote may not be in the FBs, but she wrote it and she is one of the FBs. That is how I look at it.
Diana L
Colleentinker
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Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 3:36 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Oh, wow--y'all have articulated some of my deepest annoyances and frustrations above! The dance Adventists do to distance themselves from the dark core of the beliefs is amazing. Often I look at (or listen to or read) them, and I just want to say, "Are you even thinking about who you're saying this to??!!"

I WAS an Adventist! And I wasn't casual or careless; I paid attention in my Bible classes; I studied, read on my own, etc etc. I knew my Adventism—and believe me, I lived my Adventism. I experienced it in the pews of more rural churches, and I experienced corporate Adventism and also liberal and evangelical Adventism. When people try to tell me something ISN'T Adventism, I can only stare.

It's as if the moment we leave, to them we are outsiders and must be spoken to as if we have no true knowledge of it. As Richard's mom often says, "I'm sorry I didn't teach you Adventism properly or you wouldn't have left."

Huh?!

Colleen
Freeatlast
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Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 3:42 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Compare:

Ellen White: "In ancient times God spoke to men by the mouth of prophets and apostles. In these days He speaks to them BY THE TESTIMONIES OF HIS SPIRIT. (aka her writings) [VOL. 4, PP. 147, 148 (1876).] {5T 661.1}

with:

Scripture: "God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us IN HIS SON, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world." Hebrews 1: 1,2

"Two men say they're Jesus, one of them must be wrong" - Dire Straits
8thday
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Posted on Wednesday, December 10, 2008 - 6:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

The discussion with my mom that started in July appears to be over, but she finally quit, exasperated that she could not get me to "understand" - her perspective. I suggested that I completely and totally UNDERSTOOD, but her frustration was in the fact that she could not accept that someone could understand, yet not BELIEVE it. Since I was presenting arguments against her positions, obviously, I didn't understand! argghhh! Logical discussion - impossible.

Bskillet - I love your posts!
The very last hurrah for us in Adventism was our involvement in an evangelistic series. My husband had offered to videotape the lectures. It was the last push that we needed to take the step out. Seeing it all together like that - after even the little bit of truth we had started to see... made it impossible to stay.
Sondra
Aliza
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Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 5:07 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

It's not just EGW but the Sabbath that pushes Jesus out of the church. Or maybe you can blame EGW for that. In any case, when I first left the church and ran into former friends or acquaintances, they never expressed an interest as to whether I still had a relationship with Jesus. No, inevitably the question was, "But what about the Sabbath?"
Jonvil
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Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 6:26 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Would someone please define the requirements for Sabbath 'keeping'.

It’s interesting how they avoid the deafening silence of any mention of Sabbath requirements in the NT. Of all the condemnations found, not one refers to ‘breaking’ the Sabbath with the exception of that charge being leveled at God Himself, and in the reiterations of the Commandments the Sabbath is not even alluded to. So they are left with adopting the OT Sabbath imperative while conveniently ignoring the requirements and penalties
Colleentinker
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Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 8:06 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good question, John. I'm concluding that in the Adventist mind, it's not "practices" that define honoring Sabbath. Rather, it's a spiritual, mental notion that the day is sacred. If they believe Sabbath is holy, they are a cut above regular Christians. It's a sense that the day is for them (The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath, you know), and they can have a day free from the internal drive that things must be done.

It's a belief in a cosmic "day off", a time that God has given them to just enjoy themselves and rest and to feel so much more "enlightened" than the poor people who claim to obey the Bible but are really following a worldly deception.

What Adventists have TOTALLY missed is that Sabbath was never about rewarding people with a day off. It was ALWAYS about trusting God for what they obviously couldn't do on that day: harvest, plant, spin, cook, or try to please God. Sabbath was never about the humans; it was always about trusting God.

For Adventists to actually practice the principle God gave Israel, they would have to stop claiming Sabbath as a day God gave them for their own good and rest. They would have to give up their "right" to have a special day off and learn to trust God for their piety without claiming this mental idea of "holy time". They've transferred "holy" from God to "time". They honor the day and SAY it's honoring God.

What Adventists do with Sabbath is what Jeroboam did with the golden calves at Dan. He SAID they were worshiping Yaweh; the calves were just "props", the carriers of the mighty, invisible Yaweh. He claimed the calves were not their gods--but God condemned them for idolatry. You can't use a created thing as a "vehicle" for worshiping God by calling it sacred. The minute you call a "thing" sacred, you've created an idol.

Colleen
Jonvil
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Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 11:57 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

“Good question, John. I'm concluding that in the Adventist mind, it's not "practices" that define honoring Sabbath. Rather, it's a spiritual, mental notion that the day is sacred. If they believe Sabbath is holy, they are a cut above regular Christians.”

Hence the rather snug and highly subjective answer I received from a SDA pastor on an other forum:
‘to honor God’, which implies that this can only be done during a specific period of time and that those who don’t dishonor God.

“What Adventists do with Sabbath is what Jeroboam did with the golden calves at Dan. He SAID they were worshiping Yaweh; the calves were just "props", the carriers of the mighty, invisible Yaweh. He claimed the calves were not their gods--but God condemned them for idolatry. You can't use a created thing as a "vehicle" for worshiping God by calling it sacred. The minute you call a "thing" sacred, you've created an idol.”

Excellent conclusion and answers the question, if the purpose is to ‘honor God’ why the subject is the day.

John Douglas
Bskillet
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Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 1:21 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

What Adventists have TOTALLY missed is that Sabbath was never about rewarding people with a day off. It was ALWAYS about trusting God for what they obviously couldn't do on that day: harvest, plant, spin, cook, or try to please God. Sabbath was never about the humans; it was always about trusting God.


TOTALLY! Sabbath was first given within the context of the manna from heaven. The Israelites had to trust God that He would provide enough manna for them on the sixth day, and that it wouldn't rot, so that they would have enough to eat on the Sabbath. The context in which the Sabbath command first appears in Scripture, Exodus 16, is a context of learning to trust in God.

What did Jesus say about the manna? "I am the bread of life" (John 6:35) and "I am the bread that comes down from heaven." (John 6:41) The implication is obvious! After mankind trying, throughout all the false religions of the world--and the one true one of Judaism--to please their respective deities by the works of their hands, and to improve themselves and save themselves by their own efforts, finally Jesus comes to provide by grace all that is needed for us, and we walk now by trust in the providence of His grace.


quote:

"A Sabbath rest remains, therefore, for God's people. For the person who has entered His rest has rested from his own works, just as God did from His" (Heb 4:9-10 HCSB).


In Jesus we find the rest from our works, from our performance, from our efforts to save ourselvs or appease an angry God, and instead trust completely in His completed work at Calvary and the continued provision of His grace for our spiritual sustanence and transformation.

If human performance was in any way capable of supplying our true need, then the Old Testament Jews would have achieved it, because above everyone else they were the ones who were give the right standard of performances, from God. It still never produced righteousness or life.


The biggest problem SDAs suffer from is the delusion that the Law was about the Law, rather than about Jesus. I love this quote from T. Austin-Sparks:


quote:

THE CENTRALITY AND SUPREMACY OF THE LORD JESUS IS THE PIVOT AND THE KEY TO ALL THE SCRIPTURES

Of course the Lord Jesus Himself has told us as much. We know from Luke 24 that that is so. There we find Him taking Moses, the Psalms, and all the Prophets, and in them all speaking of the things concerning Himself. So that in our reading of the Word of God, WHEREVER we happen to be reading, the question that should always be in our minds is "What has this to do with Christ?"; and if you bring that question to your reading of the Word of God, wherever you may read (and that is not said without thought) you will at once get a new understanding of the Word, you will have a new value in your reading; for the Scriptures, and ALL the Scriptures, are they which speak of Him; although you may have difficulty sometimes in tracing Him, yet He is there.
-- T. Austin-Sparks, The Centrality and Supremacy of the Lord Jesus Christ




(Message edited by bskillet on December 11, 2008)
Colleentinker
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Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 3:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great summary statement, Bskillet: "The biggest problem SDAs suffer from is the delusion that the Law was about the Law, rather than about Jesus."

Exactly.
Colleen
Dennis
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Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 3:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Since the Jewish Sabbath was specifically made for a specific time and people, this reveals that the Sabbath is not a moral law stemming from eternity. Even our SDA friends have to admit, if truly honest, that if the Sabbath was instituted at Eden as they insist, then it still would not have existed from eternity. In short, the weekly Sabbath is not associated with the timeless past. Indeed, it is was designed only for the land of Palestine--not the whole planet nor universe.

Dennis Fischer
Flyinglady
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Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 4:05 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dennis,
That is what I understand when I read Deut 5:2, 3, 15 where it says the 10 C and all the regulations/laws/rules were only give to those at Mt Sinai and that the sabbath was give to the CoI to remind them that God took them out of slavery in Egypt.
I never read those verses in SDA schools. I did not know they existed until I left adventism.
Diana L
Dennis
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Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 4:40 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Diana,

The Jews were smart enough to know that not all of the 613 laws in the Torah were of equal weight, importance, and purpose. The same holds true with the Decalogue itself. The fourth commandment, with its special shewbread and extra sacrificing requirements, is clearly ceremonial in nature. It is important to note that the other nine commandments (reiterated several times in the NT) are in effect every nano-second of time--not merely once a year, season, month, or week. The ethics of the OT law are the same as those of the NT gospel (the law of Christ).

Dennis Fischer
Bskillet
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Posted on Thursday, December 11, 2008 - 5:03 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

The ethics of the OT law are the same as those of the NT gospel (the law of Christ).


This is the problem a lot of SDAs and other Old Covenant people have when people say the Ten C's were done away with. "So that means its okay to kill or lie or commit adultery now?"

They don't realize the simple fact that things like lying or murdering or committing adultery aren't wrong because the Ten Commandments forbid them. The Ten Commandments forbid them because they were wrong in the first place.

The foundational of all truth is found in the Trinity. All ethics spring from the nature of the love that has existed from eternity among the Persons of the Trinity. Thus all things not done in love are an affront to who God is and why He created mankind--which was to create others to enjoy the love He has enjoyed within Himself from before time even existed.

(Message edited by bskillet on December 11, 2008)

(Message edited by bskillet on December 11, 2008)
Colleentinker
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Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 3:34 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

So well-stated, Bskillet! That's why understanding that Jesus fulfilled the law is NO threat whatsoever to morality! Knowing Jesus is not primarily about morality. Most cults are stringent moralists--at least in some respects. Knowing Jesus is about being born again and knowing God. He is the Source of all non-sin and truth. All morality springs from Him. We have Him, the true Source, instead of an external law.

Interestingly, I just had a phone call from a former SDA who is currently on vacation from his post in the Sudan where he is a Wycliffe Bible translator. He said that he has no end of frustration there because the very early Christian missionaries to the Sudan taught people that Monday was the first day of the week, and Sunday is the Sabbath. He said in many places in Africa the calendars are printed showing Day 1 as Monday and Day 7 as Sunday.

The Africans, who have largely NOT had the Bible in their own language, will say to him, "Are you trying to change the day we worship?"

To which he replies, "No, but I'm having trouble explaining to you what the Jewish Sabbath was."

Truly, it does no good to try to hold onto the "law" in a Christian setting, especially when the ones being preached to have no biblical worldview. (After all, this was often the situation when Paul preached in Gentile cities.) It's confusing, especially to people not grounded in Bible study. Knowing Jesus, repenting from sin, being born again—these bring a person into the very presence of God, and they will learn to live morally because they will be taught by God Himself to live as He lives. The Bible, then, will totally propel them even deeper into the things of God.

Colleen
Bskillet
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Posted on Friday, December 12, 2008 - 6:35 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)


quote:

Knowing Jesus, repenting from sin, being born again—these bring a person into the very presence of God, and they will learn to live morally because they will be taught by God Himself to live as He lives.


Amen!

"Jesus did not come to make bad people good. He came to make dead people alive."
-Ravi Zacharias

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