| Author | Message | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1453 Registered: 11-2005 |
Only hours before going to the cross Jesus said in Luke 22:15 (NIV), "I have eagerly desired to eat this Passover with you before I suffer." The Passover Lamb had to be perfect, without a spot or a blemish, and Jesus was actually saying that, "With great desire, I desire to eat the Passover before I become the Passover." When Jesus observed the Passover in the upper room, it would be a reminder that that lamb which had suffered, had by its suffering and dying provided redemption, or freedom for the Jews in Egypt. That suffering lamb had secured redemption by its death, and as proof of the death of the lamb, its blood was collected and placed on the door posts of the homes of all those who were positive and believed the plan of God. All those who believed and did as they were told were saved. And as Jesus anticipated going to Calvary and dying for the sins of the entire world, the observance of the Passover and the realization that that suffering lamb had secured redemption and freedom, reminded Jesus of the redemption and freedom that He would purchase for all mankind as He was offered on the Roman cross. God gave Moses and Aaron specific instructions regarding how the lamb was to be prepared and eaten: Exodus 12:1, 5-11 (King James Version)Why would Jesus "eagerly desired to eat" something that he knew would:
Ellen White tells us that God told her: "Vegetables, fruits, and grains should compose our diet. Not an ounce of flesh meat should enter our stomachs. The eating of flesh is unnatural. We are to return to God's original purpose in the creation of man. (MS 115, 1903, CD 380)If our ministers are not to "set an evil example in the eating of flesh-meat" then did Jesus set a bad example? Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6186 Registered: 3-2004  |
That is crazy that Jesus set a bad example. Just reading what the Bible says, then reading what EGW says just makes my head spin. Give me the Bible and only the Bible. Diana L | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1454 Registered: 11-2005 |
She also says, You place upon your tables butter, eggs, and meat, and your children partake of them. They are fed with the very things that will excite their animal passions, and then you come to meeting and ask God to bless and save your children. How high do your prayers go? You have a work to do first. When you have done all for your children which God has left for you to do then you can with confidence claim the special help that God has promised to give you. (Testimonies, Vol. 2, 1868-1871, pp. 354-376) Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9187 Registered: 12-2003  |
Yes, Gilbert--the stuff she said boggles the mind. Whenever we challenge these "White-isms" with our Adventist kin, however, the answer comes back, "Meat wasn't as diseased then as now." Of course, in the perfect circular wisdom of a false prophet, she also said the time was coming when milk and eggs would not be safe to eat. (I know; we're talking about meat, but...) Therefore, since Jesus Himself clearly ate meat and fish, Adventists combine her "loophole" for continuing dairy until such a time as it is not healthy (!) to apply to meat and fish as well. After all, how else can they reconcile Jesus' CLEAR example with her own contradictory counsels? I marvel that Adventists never sit down and think logically through these incredible "counsels" and the biblical facts carefully. Of course your point is 100% correct. Ellen clearly made claims that are heretical, and to tie food into salvation (and she did), is just wrong, wrong wrong. See 1 Tim 4:1-4. She completely lied. Yes, I said it: she lied. And we were taught that the lies were light from heaven. The implications are too terrible to think about for long...and just think about the terrible fear we lived with. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6188 Registered: 3-2004 |
EGW did lie and that is why I call her a false prophet. Thank God He removed me from adventism. Now I am free to worship Him how He wants me to worship him. It is not about a day. It is a relationship with Him that He wants. Thank you awesome God. Diana L | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2562 Registered: 10-2004  |
Colleen, EGW even said, though, that meat was "bad"/sinful back in the days when the Israelites were in the wilderness (way BEFORE Jesus came to earth), and also that meat has always been eaten only by those with a "perverted" appetite. Therefore, she directly implicates Jesus as having committed sin and having a "perverted" appetite. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on December 26, 2008) | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 459 Registered: 11-2007 |
Since leaving the sda church I am being led by satan himself and also have a perverted appetite? Thank goodness I quit drinking or I would really be in trouble. Surfy | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 404 Registered: 10-2006 |
There is a testimony of a couple who visited Elmshaven at this link. http://truthorfables.com/Elmshaven.htm Apparently even Ellen never gave up eating meat. I read somewhere that she asked Willie to get her chicken and oysters, too. Is the seventh-day Adventist church really asking us to trust the writings of a prophet who was a sinner with a perverted appetite? Maybe it was all that meat that made her mind foggy and unable to grasp spiritual things? Maybe that's what caused the animal organs in her brain to go crazy. Just thinking... | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1457 Registered: 11-2005 |
Willie was an incredibly fast learner too. He picked up a gun, and instantly acquired the necessary skills to shoot down some unclean duck for an "emergency". Exposing Adventism - Feasting on Meat in the Rockies Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 406 Registered: 10-2006 |
Gilbert, I loved the story! You're right! We need Uncle Dan and Aunt Sue telling it! I wasn't raised Adventist, but still had Your Story Hour tapes and the Blue Bible Story ten volume set. Maybe they set me up to embrace Adventism later. Hmm... I don't know how Ellen White slept at night doing one thing and telling people they would be destroyed in hellfire if they did it, too. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9191 Registered: 12-2003 |
So true, Gilbert and Joyfulheart. I've been working on the study notes to post re: the SAbbath School Lesson quarterly here: http://biblestudiesforadventists.com/2009-q1-w1-d1.html This woman was so false. She persistently portrayed Jesus as not REALLY God. Oh, she'd call Him "divine" and "Son of God"--but she always had Him in a category separate from God. He was God's spokesperson to humanity after the fall because God wouldn't directly communicate with man anymore... What??!! I am understanding more and more WHY I always thought of Jesus as weaker, gentler, milder, less powerful than GOD. I couldn't have explained that when I was an Adventist because I'd been confused by all the "orthodox" words that claimed Jesus was "fully God"...but the Jesus Adventism teaches its members is not God Almighty. They teach a false Jesus. There's no other way to put it. They have a false Jesus. The fact that any of us met Him in any way and wanted to serve Him is a testimony to God's own faithfulness to meet us in our sin. It's a testimony to the fact that we did have the Bible, and God spoke to us, creating cognitive dissonance between what we were taught the Bible meant and what it actually said. God rescued us! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6194 Registered: 3-2004 |
A thought just came to me. I think the Adventist Jesus is the same Jesus I know now. I just was not taught correctly about Him as an adventist. The reason I say this is that when I went into my 12 step program I told myself, "How can God help me if I do not keep the Sabbath?". God showed me a year ago August that I had been taught the wrong concept of Him. Adventists are not being taught the right knowledge/concept of Jesus Christ. Just my experience. Diana L (Message edited by Flyinglady on December 27, 2008) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2564 Registered: 10-2004 |
Colleen, I agree. It's totally amazing the more you find out and "see" about what we were raised in, isn't it? Just seeing what they actually teach and who the SDA "Jesus" really is...the more I read and see, the more convinced (not less!) I am that they have a false Jesus, just like you said. In fact, the stuff they've published from 2008 and even heading into 2009 seems even worse than previous statements they've made! It's certainly just as heretical as ever... Paul's warning to the Corinthians certainly applies to Adventism:
Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on December 27, 2008) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9195 Registered: 12-2003 |
Diana, absolutely. But you wanted to serve God, and He always answers the prayers of honest hearts. You had the Bible--it taught the REAL Jesus--and He revealed Himself to you gradually as you were able and willing to follow truth where He led. Being taught a "wrong concept" of Jesus is really being taught a Jesus that doesn't exist. If I had been told falsehoods about Richard, for example, before I met him for myself, I would have believed in a person who was not the true Richard! I really don't mean to belabor this point—at a practical level, it doesn't really matter as long as one is searching for God with all his heart, as Jeremiah says. But at a theological and apologetics level, this really does matter. I suppose I'm especially keyed up right now because I've spent the afternoon writing—and I'm still writing— commentary on the first week's lessons of the new quarter's SS Quarterly. There's absolutely no doubt in my mind; it's not just implied or veiled; EGW overtly taught a Jesus that was a false Jesus. She specifically separated Jesus from God. The lessons are skewed to "prove" that Jesus is God's spokesperson, that Moses was God's spokesperson, that the Scripture writers were God's spokespersons...and you see where that leads. Ellen is also God's spokesperson... You did not suppress the knowledge of God, Diana, that He reveals through creation and through the Bible. You were taught falsehood, but your heart did not suppress the knowledge of God (see Romans 1:18-22). That is why you were open to learning to know the real Jesus. Adventism is so subtle--and so deceiving. Sorry for the rant...and I love you as my sister in Jesus, Diana! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6197 Registered: 3-2004 |
I think I understand from where you are coming Colleen. I have said since joining here that adventism is very dangerous because it has some truth mixed with heresy. That is like putting a small amount of arsenic in a glass of chocolate milk. The milk tastes good as it goes down. It kills in the end. Diana L | ||
| Akweavers Registered user Username: Akweavers Post Number: 83 Registered: 8-2008 |
Well, add this to the list. EGW says that the health message is part of the third angels message. I read the third angels message and I see nothing even remotely related to health reform. Therefore, she is adding to the words of that book (Revelation) and we all know what God says about doing that...for her sake I hope she repented to God before she passed on. | ||
| Freedom55 Registered user Username: Freedom55 Post Number: 11 Registered: 3-2008 |
I've even heard some Adventists respond when confronted with the fact that Jesus ate fish and other meat, by saying, "Well, he was living up to all the light he had!" Which would imply that we now know more than Jesus did. Yikes! | ||
| Martin Registered user Username: Martin Post Number: 26 Registered: 11-2008 |
Wow! I never heard that thing about Jesus only living up to all the light he had... Hard to believe that a supposed christian would think that way. How could He not have all the light if He is the light? That really shows that for the person thinking that way, Jesus was not fully God. And following that line of thought, if we know more than Jesus did... Why would we need Him? Simply, Wow! | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1758 Registered: 8-2004  |
Jesus eating meat was once explained to me as an example of 'erring on the side of the people,' much like EGW recommended on this quote: "If you err, let it not be in getting as far from the people as possible, for then you cut the thread of your influence and can do them no good. Better err on the side of the people than altogether away from them, for there is hope in that case that you can carry the people with you, but there is no need of error on either side." {CD 211.3} | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 414 Registered: 10-2006 |
Freedom55, I've heard it. At the 2004 (I think) Michigan camp meeting, I overheard a conversation between two men who were clearly leaders in the church - maybe local church elders or conference employees. I didn't know who they were. One was clearly returning from a fishing trip and being rebuked by the other. The conversation - as I remember it, went something like this. Elder 1 - Hey watcha doing? Elder 2 - I'm just got back from fishing at ___. Elder 1 - But this is supposed to be our week with Jesus and besides inspiration tells us we are to be vegetarian. Elder 2 - But Jesus ate meat. Elder 1 - Well Jesus didn't have the health message. I was horrified! Jesus - the creator and Savior of the world didn't know He was supposed to be vegetarian because God's end time prophet hadn't enlightened Him yet? All those miracles he did with the fish and bread and providing more fish than the nets could hold and cooking fish on the beach were mistakes? He didn't know any better when he ate the Passover lamb and encouraged His disciples to as well? I couldn't believe it! Keep in mind I had only been in the church a short time and hadn't been indoctrinated in the health message yet - except not to eat unclean foods. That conversation has stayed with me because I knew that LEADER didn't have a clue about who Jesus was. | ||
| Akweavers Registered user Username: Akweavers Post Number: 84 Registered: 8-2008 |
Here are two things I have heard adventists say about Jesus eating fish: 1. It wasn't really fish. Jesus just made it appear in the form of a fish. 2. I don't care what the Bible says, I will never believe Jesus ate fish unless he tells me himself that he did. The first one was the way my grandmother used to explain it to us. The second was a church member that apparently doesn't think the Bible is the Word of God or she would know that Jesus has already told her he ate fish. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9200 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, I've heard it, too. My MIL once said that Jesus didn't have the health message when I mentioned Jesus eating fish. As for Paul and the gospel he preached (minus the health message), "He didn't have present truth. What he preached was true for his day." Sigh. Colleen | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 415 Registered: 10-2006 |
As long as I'm in the link mode, I'll share another article that solidified my understanding that Ellen White was a false prophet and that I was being taught kooky, unscriptural things. It's called 5 loaves and no fish. The author apparently had an experience similar to the things we've been talking about. I don't want to get off track with this topic because it's really interesting and I'm thoroughly enjoying it, but the follow up to this is really work reading, too. It shows through Ellen's own words actually in her own handwriting that she taught the shut door from vision - something she (and the elders at my church) vehemently denied. Here's the link: http://truthorfables.com/Five_Loves_no_Fish.htm http://www.truthorfables.com/EGW_to_J.Bates_1847.htm There are also links well worth reading at the end of the second link, but they're totally unrelated to the topic at hand so I'll stop. Enjoy the articles! | ||
| Dt Registered user Username: Dt Post Number: 112 Registered: 4-2005 |
This is such an interesting topic to bring up with SDA's. EGW talks about meat, milk, eggs etc. becoming more and more diseased as we get closer to the end of time. Think about it. Pasteurization of milk was brand new in the 1860's (she had her first health "vision" in 1863). There were no antibiotics. There was no refrigeration as we know it. There were no health inspections of facilities or products. There was virtually no concept of sanitization. We are supposed to believe that meat and dairy products are more hazardous to our health NOW than they were in the 1860's? When thousands died yearly (especially during the Civil War among soldiers) from Typhoid and other diseases that were solved with antibiotics and proper sanitation? It just boggles the mind that they can look at clear facts and argue the opposite. They would NEVER accept this type of reasoning from a Mormon but swallow the whole thing from their "prophet". DT | ||
| Freedom55 Registered user Username: Freedom55 Post Number: 13 Registered: 3-2008 |
Thanks for the links Joyfulheart. I read them with much interest. Even printed them out for my file on this subject. Wow! And the church continues to deny it ever happened. | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 419 Registered: 10-2006 |
I know isn't it amazing! They know the truth at the upper levels of the hierarchy. It's all about the money. If this stuff comes out, Ellen White is a false prophet. If Ellen White is a false prophet, the things she said need to be evaluated in light of scripture. (Guess what that will lead to...) People will realize their church has been lying to them and leave. Now there are pensions and salaries to pay. The EGW diehards will become even more convinced that the church is apostate and leave and the rest (hopefully) will go to truly Christian churches! What happens to all the leaders then? It's all about the money. Praise the Lord though, He is bringing people to the truth one at a time! Dale Ratzlaff has said pastors and Conference leaders (I think even conference presidents!) have told him to continue doing what he's doing! Freedom55, I so admire you for the courage it took to step down and give up the salary, position and everything it entailed. God will honor your obedience! God has brought you out for a purpose! | ||
| Sparrow Registered user Username: Sparrow Post Number: 28 Registered: 10-2008  |
I think it is about money and pride. I am thankful for the courage of those who stand up for the truth in the face of intimidation and personal loss. I am also thankful for the revealing facts that help me to make a stand. |
