| Author | Message | ||
| Freedom55 Registered user Username: Freedom55 Post Number: 6 Registered: 3-2008 |
I thought I should introduce myself since I've now started making comments on the forum. I have been an Adventist almost all of my life. I had given my life to the Adventist cause, becoming a pastor & later a conference administrator. I was convinced of the truth of the Adventist message, including EGW. I defended EGW when the charges of plagiarism first surfaced. The chink in the armor for me began as I continued to study the book of Hebrews. It became clear to me that Christ did not enter the Most Holy Place in 1844, but on his ascension. I came to the conclusion that EGW was wrong on this point, and if she was wrong on this one point, how many other things was she also wrong on. It wasn't long before other Adventist teachings came tumbling down as I studied further. It was a tough time for me. I became depressed & angry. I don't know what would have happened to me if it wasn't for Dale Ratzlaf & Proclamation! What a blessing they have been to me during this difficult time. I'm still struggling with all of this. My wife doesn't share my thinking on this as of yet. That makes it doubly hard. So that in a nutshell is where I'm at today. I look forward to participating in this forum. Please keep me in your prayers. thanks. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6189 Registered: 3-2004  |
Freedom55, You are in my prayers and on my prayer list. This will include your wife also. Our awesome God is caring for you. Diana L | ||
| Surfy Registered user Username: Surfy Post Number: 458 Registered: 11-2007 |
Freedom55, I too have an adventist wife although sometimes I can see some softening around the edges. Are you still on church payroll and dealing with all those thoughts and emotions also? Hang around a while as there is a lot of love and compasson here. Surfy | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1455 Registered: 11-2005 |
Freedom55, thank you so much for sharing your testimony with us. We will be praying for you and your wife. I believe that the Scriptures show that God is in the business of saving families. Over and over again we read thrilling stories of entire families being saved because of one faithful believer. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 334 Registered: 2-2008 |
Welcome! Love your name... Freedom. (Won't ask about the 55!) This ministry (FAF and Proclamation) has been a huge blessing to many of us. This has been an awesome journey... filled with lots of ups, downs, and crooked roads. I'm praying for you and your wife as you continue on this path. Hope to keep hearing from you... I'm sure that we can learn a lot from you. Thanks for your post. ~vivian | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 403 Registered: 10-2006 |
Freedom55, I think I welcomed you before but want to tell you again how glad I am that you're here and thank you for sharing your story! It's a powerful one and God is going to use it - and you mightily. Your response is so normal. So many people here have shared how they too became physically ill - and depressed and angry, too as the doctrines they built their whole world around came shattering down. It must be doubly hard as a pastor and conference official. Please know you and your wife will be in my prayers. I say a hearty AMEN to all you said about Dale Ratzlaff and Proclamation! This forum has also been a tremendous blessing in my life. I pray it will be for you as well! It is a miracle of God that you now see truth! The veil is a very real thing. Your wife still has hers on - and it will only be removed as the Holy Spirit draws her to Jesus. God answers prayer! I believe that with all my heart - and I will be praying for both of you! Again, thanks so much for telling your story! God is going to use you here! You're a part of us now! Joyfulheart | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 260 Registered: 4-2007 |
Freedom55, What stuck in my craw was the 'you can never say you are saved'. When, after 2 + years of intensive study, I realized I could, I left. It is a bit overwhelming. I did not have a systematic approach, I just read everything (the internet proved to be invaluable), over and over and..., eventually things began to gel. My free personal opinion (take it for what it is worth): Don't leave the Adventist church because it is wrong, you'll just find yourself 'out there' without a clue of where to go. Most of my study was a search for what is right and I settled on Reformation Theology (it was definitely NOT an easy transition), found a church that sang the same song and attended both churches for about 9 months before tendering my resignation, 4 months later I became a member of my new church, I've never looked back. Similar to you and Surfy, my wife remains a cultural Adventist. Don't get discouraged, I GUARANTEE you WILL survive, though a bit battered. Saved by God's grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. John Douglas | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 757 Registered: 7-2005  |
Dear Freedom55, Welcome to the best web site on the Internet! At least, I think it is. I come to this forum more often than I visit any other web site. I have an Adventist husband, who has been an elder for over 20 years, so I, too, can sympathize with your situation of having a 'mixed-faith' marriage. We get along fine with his-and-hers religions, but all our children were out of the nest by the time I left Adventism. That makes it so much easier. I'm so happy to learn that it was Hebrews that unlocked your Adventist prison doors. My husband told me he was studying it a few months back, so I'm hoping and praying he'll have an epiphany similar to yours. I'll pray for your precarious situation. I'm so glad you introduced yourself. Honestwitness | ||
| Daisie_girl Registered user Username: Daisie_girl Post Number: 78 Registered: 9-2008 |
Freedom55, thank you for coming on here and thank the Lord that He is revealing more and more of His truth to you!! It is hard leaving and it can be a very discouraging time!! But not all prisoners who are set free can adjust to their freedom overnight!! I promise you that there is joy, celebration, happiness and security knowing that you are in the most Awesome love and care of our Lord, Savior and Redeemer!! It will come!! Don't worry . . . the gold doesn't stay in the fire until it has been refined. You are that gold and God will bring you out of this fire!! We all love you here and will be praying for you and your wife!! God will do awesome and mighty things through and for you!! | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1456 Registered: 11-2005 |
HonestWitness, your telling us that your hubby is studying Hebrews makes goosebumps run down my spine. That is so exciting! That was the first book that I really started reading -- over and over. It became quickly apparent that it was radically incompatible with what I had been taught as an Adventist. I am so excited for you. God does work miracles, and as I said before, I do believe that nothing makes God happier than saving families. Your family is in our prayers. You are truly a blessing here. In Christ, Gilbert | ||
| Christo Registered user Username: Christo Post Number: 84 Registered: 2-2008 |
Welcome, FREEDOM55, I just wanted to share this scripture, ROMANS 5 10For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. 11And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement. My heart goes out to those with family members who don't realize that atonement has already been given,and now is the time for atonement to be recieved. Chris | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3901 Registered: 9-2006  |
You know…. As I sat and thought on this thread I considered this. The encouragement we give to others is most generally drawn from experience and a “Been there done that.” At times God does give us a special insight into something or other as he has done with me with Adventism because with God all things are possible. But as a general rule he allows us to go through the hard times, be it spiritual, financial, or physical. He does not cause these things, but he does allow it for he is sovereign. After these trials we become fit to minister to others, without them we would see someone down and say “Why don’t you just get up and things will go good for you.” This seems to me to be just how it is, we make a step toward God and God stands on the other side of obstacles of all kinds and says. “Come this way.” And even sometimes we get so lost in the brambles that we lose sight of him and he has to show himself to us. Freedom55 says he became a Pastor dedicated to the Adventist church and now he finds himself right in the middle of hardship. By the time he gets through he will be able to minister, he will have a heart for someone he doesn’t yet know. No trial at the time seems easy, and sometimes we feel like we are going it alone and at times, and at times Jesus is the only one you can take it too because he is the only one that knows and understands. We pray for things to change day after day after day and one day roll’s into another with no change. One thing for sure does not change; he is with you every step of the way just like he said. Sometimes the years of hardship roll’s on and on and on and we literally have to stretch our faith to have any at all. As the old song goes “If it weren,t for my bad luck, I would have no luck at all.” He lets you know you will be a minister unto him and you minister a little while then he leaves you on the back side of some desert for 20 or 30 years until you an old man. (ain’t no old women, just a mite seasoned!) Maybe it’s just me, but is seems to me like we are just like a young colt when we come to Jesus, we are full of vip and vinegar, but we ain’t fit to ride. First the owner breaks us to the bridle and we buck and snort. Then he breaks to the saddle and we buck and snort. Then he puts his weight on us and we buck and snort, but by the time we are rode where we don’t want to go for a few thousand miles we become more willing. He don’t even have to put the hobbles on us any more and when he says giddiup we just walk on out. It doesn’t seem fair does it? Well… I don’t know about fair, but it is sure effective. Seems to me there are lots of colts in this here corral. River | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 262 Registered: 4-2007 |
“but we ain’t fit to ride” Sigh! That’s about where I’m at. “He don’t even have to put the hobbles on us any more and when he says giddiup we just walk on out.” I’d have to be Methuselah to live long enough for that to happen. I could always be rendered for glue. Beating a dead horse Go piglets John | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3902 Registered: 9-2006 |
The trouble with you John is you got off down there clowning around with them Baptists. They wouldn't cross a river if God moved it 20 mile the other side of them. They are too afraid they'll get their feet wet. Soueeee! River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3903 Registered: 9-2006 |
God put me on here to ride the rough off you folks! I don't guess he figured it was any use wasting his time on persnickety colts.  River | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9190 Registered: 12-2003  |
Freedom55, I want to add my encouragement to all that above. God will take you to places you haven't dreamed of going—and you will marvel at His vision and provision—and you'll learn to trust Him in deeper and deeper ways. River God has certainly put you here to give perspective to us persnickety colts! So glad you're with us! Colleen | ||
| Martin Registered user Username: Martin Post Number: 23 Registered: 11-2008 |
Welcome to the forum! I've been around here for a short time now, but I can say that the interaction with other people who've gone through similar situations has generally been very positive. I'm not participating that much (yet) but it's always been nice to come and see what's new. I guess it's not easy to quit the "lurker" clothings Anyway, Freedom55, I really wish you the best in your way... God bless you and your family! | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 583 Registered: 7-2007 |
Welcome Freedom55!!! (And Martin, did I welcome you? I hope so. I don't always read everything, so sometimes I miss things. Anyway, welcome, too!) It was the book of Hebrews that convinced me that EGW was a false prophet. Verses like Hebrews 6:19,20; Hebrews 9:12,25 and Hebrews 10:12,19,20 convinced me that Jesus didn't wait until 1844; but entered the Most Holy Place upon His ascension. After that I learned that the whole church was false when I saw that Jesus brought in an entirely new covenant when He died (Hebrews 9:15-17; Hebrews 7:12) and that the old covenant became obsolete (Hebrews 8:13) and then I was shocked to discover that the old covenant included the 10 commandments (Deuteronomy 5 and Deuteronomy 4:13 where it says: "So He declared to you His covenant which He commanded you to perform, the Ten Commandments..."). I found that the new covenant (New Testament) only repeats 9 of the original 10 commandments and that the Sabbath was a shadow of Christ (Colossians 2:16,17) and that it was a sign of the old covenant made between Israel and God. (Exodus 31:13). I found that the law didn't come until 430 years after Abraham (Galatians 3:17-19) and I discovered that now, we're in the "ministry of the Spirit" rather than the "ministry of death, written and engraved on stones." (2nd Cor. 3:7,8) and that we now "walk in the Spirit" (Galatians 5:16). I wanted to write all those texts down in case any Adventists are reading this. I hope the Lord brings a LOT of people out of darkness to light! Of course people will quote where EGW said that "the brightest lights will go out." The devil knew that the Adventist "truth" was a false gospel, so he must have known that people would discover that from time to time; so what better way to keep people from following them into the truth of the Bible than to have the false prophet say that?! | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 263 Registered: 4-2007 |
And now a word from the sponsor: After reading Asurprise's post I am again reminded of how convenient 'InstaVerse', is, it allows you to read all the verses listed without using an online Bible, and it's FREE, get one today! http://www.instaverse.com/ John | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6196 Registered: 3-2004 |
Thanks John, I just down loaded it. Diana L | ||
| Freedom55 Registered user Username: Freedom55 Post Number: 7 Registered: 3-2008 |
Wow, I'm blown away by all of your responses. Thank you so much for your encouraging words & for making me feel so welcome. Just so you know, I resigned my conference position a few months ago because I was becoming so detached from Adventist teachings. Don't know what the future holds, but as the old song goes, I know who holds the future. Another thing that helped me was that I stopped reading Ellen White. Its amazing how things become clearer when you simply read God's awesome Word. Since I still attend an SDA church with my wife, I think next quarter's lessons are going to be a challenge to stomach. I'm glad to see that some information is being prepared that should be quite helpful. I wish I had only started communicating with all of you earlier. Better late than never, right? | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3904 Registered: 9-2006 |
Right. God knew the day and the hour you would be here and even though things seem to be a little topsy turvey right now, it will get brighter. God has good things stored up for you and all his children. Just reach out to him with an honest and humble heart and he will take you places you have never been just like Colleen said. She has been there and she knows what she is talking about. Just reach out and touch the Lord' As he passes by' You'll find he's not to busy, to hear your hearts cry' Well... you probably know the song my friend. We will be praying for you and you don't have to go this alone. When it gets tough just be humble of heart and ask for prayer or if you feel like venting a little or whatever because you are among friends. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3905 Registered: 9-2006 |
I got my Sabbath school quarterly today. Whoopie doo! It is titled "The Prophetic gift" They wouldn't know what a prophetic gift was if it came up and bit them on the butt. River P.S. double whoopie doo, I just read the contents page. Number four is "The gift of Prophecy and Gods remnant church. E.G.W. Wrangleplunkiedippieflick aaoogaspickleflakdanglegink. Barfupyourguts-splooy. | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 412 Registered: 10-2006 |
Hey River, How would you suggest that we pronounce that? E.G.W. Wrangleplunkiedippieflickaaoogaspickleflakdanglegink. Just wondering... | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9196 Registered: 12-2003 |
River, I'm with you right now--I just sent Richard the commentary for Day 7 of Week One--it should be online shortly. We'll post an update as soon as it's working... Oh, wow--this lesson really did get me going, so to speak. Everything is based on straw-man assumptions--false premises that are assumed to be true and leave one back-pedaling to undo the foundational assumptions that support the false arguments. (Does that even make sense?) I'm exhausted... Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3906 Registered: 9-2006 |
This particular quarterly reminds me of the period of time when in order to get my FCC license I had to pass a series of Morse code tests. The first test was a test to receive Morse code at five words per minute, the next was fifteen words per minute and the final was at twenty words per minute. So I thought “flash cards!” and I used a computer program to study for the test. The program would give the sound of the letter in Morse code and flash the letter it represented on the screen such as da-dit for the letter N. So at the end of two weeks of this I thought “I have got it down pat. I will Ace this test!” And off a buddy and I went to take the test which was to be given at the Portland Adventist hospital in Portland Oregon. (The Adventist hospital being coincidental, I took the rest of my tests at Ft. Lewis Wa. I knew nothing of Adventist at the time.) As I sat there with my ear phones on and pencil poised to write, the man began sending Morse code at five words per minute. I got nothing! It was as if I was hearing Morse code for the first time and I failed the test miserably. I didn’t have a thing wrote down. I had used a false foundation for my studies and when the real test came I was completely unprepared for that test. My mistake was in using a visual aid. During the time I studied for these test I read a lot about us being left and right brained and that was the way it was explained by some. At any rate what I did in preparing for that test was to use the wrong foundation to study for that test. These people that write these quarterlies and the people that study these quarterlies with trust and confidence are both using a wrong foundation for the study. Much like my Morse code study using flash cards, the writer flashes it on the screen of the mind and the reader translates that using the very same foundation. Coming from a position of an evangelical never been it’s like I have to read or hear them with one side of my brain and it has to be translated out the other side of my brain as to what they really mean. These people that write these quarterlies and the people that study them with confidence and trust are using a wrong foundation in the first place and it cannot pass the true test. To me as an evangelical never been you folks are like my Morse code test. First you studied for the test using the wrong foundation and then come to find out you had to study all over again and it is like hearing the Bible for the first time (or) reading it anew. Let me try to explain. Comparing this to my Morse code study, EGW is the visual aid, and the Bible is the Bible. It wasn’t the Morse code that I heard that threw me on the test, it was the visual aid. This quarterly is much like that. They “send” or “sound” a scripture then “flash” a picture on the screen of your mind. The final outcome is that when they hear the real, they have nothing to write but gobbledegook, hen scratches on the pages of their life. Only and until they study using the correct foundation will they be able to understand and “Hear” what is being sent and pass that “test”. Freedom55 is hearing the true “Morse” (Bible) as if for the first time. Well…just going by your own testimonies of “It was like I was reading the Bible for the first time.” The normal run of the mill evangelical does not know how to re-translate what the Adventist writes and so he may not see much wrong with this quarterly. Coming purely from the evangelical world, I have had to learn to re-translate what I hear from the Adventist. It has to go into the left side of my brain and be re-translated out the right side of my brain to “This is what they mean.” By the time I do all this re-translating you all have left me in the dust. In my own opinion this one of the reasons why you all are so important in reaching out to those still left in Adventism. You see, there are so many people that are busy with pencils flying, trusting that the foundation is correct, trusting in what they are studying, every Sabbath and throughout the week they toil at it, and when the real God gives that final test “Do you know my Son?” I am truly afraid they will fail that test and with horror stand with nothing in their hand but their own works before almighty God. I hope I am wrong. I am not saying that God will ask that question literally for God knows who are his. What I am saying is that I am afraid they do not have a true relationship with Jesus, but a God of their own imagination. That was the way it was with my Morse code, I had studied using a foundation of my own imagination and when the real came I was ill equipped to cope with it. I feel that it will be a fearful and final thing to stand before God without an advocate and be pronounced guilty. How will we be able to cope with an absolute Holy God? The only way I know to do it is plunge myself in the flow of his blood. In my own self and on my own I am so weak, so sinful and I so fall short of the mark that I tremble at the very thought of appearing before him. I don’t beg for forgiveness for sins individual, I beg for forgiveness complete. In retrospect, I don’t think any one of you would be expected to take the message back to them all by yourself as that might be a fearful task to take on, but through combined effort and prayer you can stand as a mighty voice reaching back into Adventism with the Gospel. Not to say that any one person should not try to stand as a testimony to their family, but in feeling that it is up to you alone you may become quickly discouraged and down heartened so it might be advisable to try to avoid that attitude. Well… I get on here and ramble I know. How firm a foundation, ye saints of the Lord’ Is laid for your faith in his excellent word’ What more can he say to you, than to you he hath said’ To you who for refuge to Jesus have fled’ Fear not, I am with thee; Oh be thou not dismayed’ For I am the Lord thy God, and I will still give thee aid’ I’ll strengthen the, help thee, and cause thee to stand’ Upheld by my righteous, omnipotent hand. River | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 3907 Registered: 9-2006 |
I just feel the need to try to bring a word of encouragement to all this morning. You are not alone in this, there are many others who have walked where you walk. God has raised up a mighty Army to stand against the falsehoods and failures of Adventism. You are a part of that Army. I feel so bolstered this morning by a mighty presence of of his power and the power of his church, and by his multitude of witnesses. See the flags wave and the drums roll as his church, his body, of which we are a part marches on to victory through Christ Jesus. It will not fail nor waver. Have faith in God. River | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2565 Registered: 10-2004  |
Colleen, I totally understand about being exhausted after having to "slog" through a bunch of SDA "garbage" (to put it mildly)... Isn't it incredible how basically every day's lesson declares that Jesus is not God?! Even the comments from Day 6 from the Teachers Edition, show more of their teaching that Jesus is "lesser": "His ascension into heaven confirms His promise to return to earth and take us to meet the Father." Actually, His promise was: "I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, there you may be also." (John 14:3b NASB.) It was Phillip who said: "Lord, show us the Father" (verse 8). And Jesus replied that, "He who has seen Me has seen the Father" (verse 9). Instead, the SDAs have to make "meet[ing] the Father" (a hint at their corporeality teaching, BTW) the thing that is special, and something that is "new"--even for the disciples that Jesus was speaking to. Again, they have Jesus as "lesser" than the Father. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9202 Registered: 12-2003 |
So true, Jeremy. Besides that, Jesus' ascension was not primarily about confirming his return. Jesus specifically told His disciples that it would be better for them for Him to leave them because then He would send the Holy Spirit, and He could not send the Spirit if He did not go to His Father. Jesus' ascension was the final act in His work of atonement. It marked the beginning of the new "thing" He was doing: bringing people into the new birth by the indwelling (not merely the "coming upon them") of the Holy Spirit. Pentecost was the gift possible only after Jesus' ascension, and the church was born. Another thing the Quarterly missed was what Jesus' resurrection promised. It's not just a promise of our own resurrection; Jesus' resurrection is what "saves us" according to Romans 5. Also Ephesians 1 says that we have the same power in us that raised Jesus from the dead. Jesus' resurrection is what defeated death and guarantees our own new birth and our new life in the Spirit. Adventists, of course, cannot embrace these facts because they fail to understand the role and power of the Holy Spirit because they deny having spirits themselves. The reality of living as born again believers, united by the Holy Spirit and thus one with God, is obscured to them. And Jeremy, I was deeply impacted by the same thing you mentioned above: the SS Lesson studiously and repeatedly demeans Jesus and portrays Him as "less" than God. I know many people argue this point, but I KNOW why every Adventist I know has a conception of Jesus that is less than Almighty God. They might say the right words, but as long as they have an Adventist world view, their perception of Jesus will be diminished. This view of Jesus is part and parcel of Adventist theology. Colleen |
