| Author | Message | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 85 Registered: 11-2007 |
Another thread recently made me realize I know of at least 5 Adventists who have committed suicide. Since being out in the "real" world, I have only known one non-SDA who has done this. I wonder if the incidence is much higher for SDA's. To do a completely unscientific survey, how many SDA's have you known that did this? Does anyone know of any statistics? Probably a well-kept secret Two of the five I know for a fact were under condemnation for not being able to measure up to what they thought they should be. One was the father of a friend in school who I know was a very strict SDA. Whenever people are infused with doubt about God's love toward them, the enemy comes at them like hurricane. I've been there a few times myself. I have wanted to die, feeling so hopeless and in despair, thinking I was not even worth the organic matter I was composed of. God miraculously intervened and comforted me, assuring me of His ability to be my perfect parent. Soon after this I was given the psalm, "If my mother and father forsake me, the Lord will take care of me." I don't want to say Adventism causes people to commit suicide, but could be a contributing factor. I wonder if there could be a connection between people coming from extreme dysfunction being attracted to cults. My husband and I realized one day that all the members of our small congregation came from families without a loving father figure. Transferring their father image to God, they felt comfortable in a religious system where God was potrayed in a manner similar to their earthly fathers - far away, constantly striving for his attention/approval,, etc... This was also the case for my husband and I. It was interesting that after I spent 6 months in counseling and both of us experienced a quantum leap in our emotional lives, forgiving the past hurts of absent fathers, that we were soon also delivered from our legalism and deception. I don't know if there is a connection, but I was curious to know if anyone else had input on this. | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 347 Registered: 1-2006  |
Hi 8thday A few years ago I was in Shipshewana, Indiana, where the Amish have a nice equivalent to what we would call a "conference office." I was looking thru the bookstore and glanced at a book written by an Amish author who mentioned that the suicide rate of the Amish was about the same as for persons living in large, crowded cities. I recall hearing of tests where animals are overcrowded in cages with unfavorable results, and, of course, you would not expect the Amish to suffer for that reason, with their emphasis on country living. The reason posed by the author was the perfection in the flesh required for salvation. Ellen's scenario from the Great Controversy in which we must stand without sin before God without a Mediator teaches the same thing, and it's also pretty bad news. Speaking of the law, Acts 15:10 mentions that neither we (Christians) nor our fathers (Jews) were able to bear it. Next verse . . . we're saved by grace. I'm not aware of any formal studies linking suicide to theological teachings, but I've often wondered if there isn't a connection as the Amish writer suggested. Certainly our theology can have profound effects on our behavior, as the horrors of the recent FLDS raid come to light, David Koresh, Jim Jones . . . Bob | ||
| Indy4now Registered user Username: Indy4now Post Number: 62 Registered: 2-2008 |
The only person I know of that committed suicide is my older's brother's best friend in high school. He committed suicide in either his senior year of high school or early on in college. I never thought of it as being an Adventist issue. I don't think it was for him. I'm not sure you want to add him to your statistics in your completely unscientific survey!  ~vivian | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 5083 Registered: 3-2004  |
My Mom became an SDA after marrying my Dad. She and her brothers and sister were orphans when their parents died when she was less than 2 years of age. The children were separated and raised by their godparents. For my Mom that meant living with her grandmother who moved from child to child and my Mom not having a stable childhood. I think my Mom had sociopathic tendencies as she did not know how to bond with people, not even her children. I think that is why she mistreated her 2 step children also. Saying that adventism attracts dysfunctional people, in my opinion, is correct. I have seen it in my family. I thank our awesome God that I am no longer there. Diana | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 7962 Registered: 12-2003  |
I'm also curious about the suicide statistics for Adventism. I do believe, as Bob suggested, that the hopelessness it engenders leads people down that path. I know one person rather close to our family who died about ten years ago, not from overt suicide, but from the results of severe malnutrition brought on by progressively reducing her food intake in an effort to keep obeying Ellen White's comment that people should cut their food intake. This young woman (in her 30's) was admittedly suffering from a psychological disorder, but it seemed to have been brought on by deep issues of abuse, control, and guilt for which she had no solution except to turn to more and more rigid observance of EGW. Colleen | ||
| Treasurehntr Registered user Username: Treasurehntr Post Number: 76 Registered: 7-2007 |
Just a thought. Does Adventism attract dysfunctional members or does it take otherwise normal people and make them dysfunctional? | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 350 Registered: 1-2006 |
Treasurehunter While I'm sure this is an unpleasant topic for all of us, the pastor of a local non-adventist seventh-day keeping church told me that he believes the "seventh-day" business attracts "kooks"--his word. He's their pastor! There are many adventists with multi generational stories that might confirm lasting damage over a period of generations. I do not think it's healthy to remain in toxic systems. So I would guess it works both ways. People pretty much find what they're looking for . . . An key method for cults is to keep dangling the promise of life--but never quite granting it--until believers descend into despair. This was what bothered me early on when I would read Ellen. First, hope; then, despair. Never peace. Richard Tinker summed it up a few years ago with one word: Trust. It's the difference between walking by sight--believing that you are saved by being part of the remnant church--but being plagued with doubts, or walking in the faith of Abraham, and actually trusting fully in God. Bob | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 2605 Registered: 9-2006  |
River's words of wisdom. Adventist try to sell God atonement at a higher price and then try to make him believe he got a good deal. Then they try to sell you Sabbath worship as the main course, E.G.W as a side order and then try to make you believe you got a good deal. Now you know where the saying comes from "I was sold a bill of goods." Adventist make the best snake oil salesman in the world. Ye old River | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 113 Registered: 10-2006 |
I think the Adventist church attracts people who haven't read their Bibles or are in weak churches who desperately want to know truth. They think they've found it when Adventists show up with all the answers. I was actually from a very strong church, but looking for something deeper. My church did some things I was having a hard time with so leaving was easier. I was so wrong to leave! The Adventists seemed more committed to holiness and everyone seemed to know their Bibles so well. I had never studied Daniel or Revelation at least to that depth before and it was fascinating! I really believed that my church had taught my wrong. They gave me multiple Bibles and had me mark texts. I thought everything they were teaching me was Biblical. I'm not a "Kook" - well maybe some think I am. I just wanted a deeper, more commited walk with Christ. I thought (when I came in) that I had found it. The problem was that I check out everything. When I finally began to test the things I was learning after the seminar in my Amazing Facts class that my personal "time of trouble" began. I found ellenwhite.org and truthor fables.com - and my trouble in the church began. Although they say to check everything out, they mean check out the verses we showed you and make sure they are really in the Bible. They mean listen to the Ellen White quotes we read in church and see if those quotes are in line with what the Bibles teaches. Read STC and see if you think it's true. Don't bother reading the other stuff until you're not a "babe" anymore. Inductive Bible study is taboo as is testing Ellen White's writings against the Bible -or even herself. She contradicts the Bible so much! When I began to ask the pastor and elders about some quotes I was finding, the "get her out now" machinery began. Again, I'm not a "Kook" but I did last in the church for several years because I was seeking more truth than I thought I had. I liked being part of the "remnant" - God's favorites. It felt good and was hard to leave. I guess I think that most people coming into that church just don't check things out. (The Clear Word doesn't help.) The veil becomes firmly attached - and the rest is history. I have noticed though that at least my SDA church attracted a lot of former Jehovah's Witnesses. Hmm... | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 87 Registered: 11-2007 |
Thanks for all these thoughts! Joyful Heart, I do really relate to what you said too. My husband almost became a Jehovah's Witness for the same reason - they opened their Bible and showed him what they believed which was a new experience for him. He had not encountered that anywhere in his church background which is a sad reflection on the church at large. If the Body of Christ was more diligent to the Word of God, people would be less vulnerable. In the interim between leaving Adventism and getting sucked into the Hebrew Roots movement, I was sitting in "normal" church thinking, "There has to be more to it than this!" Part of it is the church not fulfilling its mission to teach and reach, but also part of it was my own imprint of needing that something extra special -being special. That was just from being raised Adventist. I do think Adventism attracts AND creates dysfunction. However, the Hebrew Roots adherents we were involved with did not have any adults raised under its teachings because it is a relatively new phenomenon. Everyone in our congregation had come from other churches, most Sunday keeping churches. After leaving we really saw a connection between people's emotional baggage (including our own) and being attracted to the movement. It doesn't have one cult leader, but several you can pick from. It's not cohesive or controlled by anyone, therefore we deceived ourselves into thinking it wasn't a cult and we were just simply following the scripture alone. But the end result was the same - focus on obedience you can never really live up to, and fearing punishment every time you fall short. We adopted the "us" and "them" mentality, feeling superior to all other believers. And whereas Adventists at least go out and want to help people, Hebrew Roots groups often take on the characteristics of Judaism and seldom ever reach out beyond there cloistered associations. One of our members posted our congregation on a Hebrew Roots message board so some people found us through the internet. We told him to take it off because the people who showed up were downright scary. When we attended bigger gatherings for festivals, we met other people who were WAY out there. Borderline crazy. While it should have been a "here's your sign" experience, we instead said, "we'll be different." In the end, we weren't. This is all going beyond the scope of the suicide question, but just pondering the connection between mental anguish and false teaching. I definitely think it contributes in some cases. | ||
| Bobj Registered user Username: Bobj Post Number: 351 Registered: 1-2006 |
Joyfulheart Being labeled as pecuilar or different or a cult was not a great deterrent for me in adventism. We got called a lot of things. I was so incredibly hungry for the gospel as a kid. I took a theology major and minor (called a concentration at Andrews in those days) read about 300 sda books from the last 150 years, and countless theological periodicals. I chased the health thing at Loma Linda School of Health for three years where I encountered friends who were, I think, hoping for perfection in the flesh by attaining perfect health practices. I took a double major MPH in nutrition and also health ed major--right in line with some of what I'm describing. When you believe this stuff there's no rest, and there wasn't any for me. I took another three year degree at La Sierra, then planned to return to the seminary eventually. Being deceived was very costly. The spiritual battle is just amazing. It was a gradual process for the Lord to lead me out, and one of the important steps was seeing the data from valuegenesis studies, which were being replicated on a small scale in local southern California schools by my research classmates. It wasn't really until that point that I saw how far off the church was theologically, and the difference in the moral judgment inventory scores of mainline Christian students to SDA students. I was horrified to look at objective, measurable differences. And I had young kids just starting in adventist schools. I guess what I'm trying to say is that the hunger and the blindness were just incredible, and any names or labels people put on us as adventists was fairly easy to brush off--we had the truth--but I could see that it sure wasn't helping our adventist kids in the local church schools. I'm embarassed by all this now. There were no shortcuts for me, but I have dealt honestly with all the misapplied mistranslated prooftexts that kept me in adventism. It was worth the effort, and I'm thankful to the Lord. I'm sorry about mentioning the pastor's comment about "kooks." I was so hungry for the gospel that I was quite willing to weather the labels and derision (and I've heard enough) from whatever source as I searched honestly for the good news. I never felt like one, either, despite his comment years later. Bob | ||
| Foofighter Registered user Username: Foofighter Post Number: 29 Registered: 7-2005 |
I agree that Adventism attracts kooky people and creates dysfuctional people. But, it also attracts people who are Biblically ignorant and who are searching. I was that person in 1976. I was 23 when a friend of mine became an Adventist. We had both been looking for something spiritual in our lives. We had checked out some "kooky" things, but hadn't really found what we were looking for yet. Then, through some pretty traumatic circumstances, she became an Adventist and I followed about a year or so later. She left Adventism about 8-10 years later, but I was there 25 years. Of course, she had the advantage of being out in CA, I think around the time of the Walter Rae business, and her spouse didn't work for the church. To be honest, I didn't know too much about the Walter Rea and Des Ford stuff. We were in the Southeast at the time, and I guess we just weren't exposed to it so much. I was pretty busy catching up on "the truth". But, anyway, I think it does attract kookier types, the Biblically ignorant, and creates dysfuntion. My husband, who is at least 3rd generation SDA, has so much dysfunction in his family, as do so many other SDA's I've known, it is just unbelievable. My family, on the other hand is Baptist, and are so normal. That was a red flag later on, but I think I just parroted what I had heard somewhere along the way in SDA, that the Devil works harder on people following the truth. Sometimes,(most of the time?) I too, feel so embarrassed for being so hoodwinked and just going head-long into something so far removed from anything I had known before. Oh, the other thing I wanted to mention, is that I think the Review had an article about suicide within the last couple of years. As I recall, it was written by a younger guy, and I thought he said that 4 or 5 of his friends had committed suicide. Does anyone know of a way to locate that article? It was quite shocking to me. Did anyone else see this? | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 114 Registered: 10-2006 |
Hi Bob ...and everyone else, There's no need to apologize for the "Kooks" comment. The truth is that many "Kooks" are in the SDA and lots of churches. I think though that there's no better place for a "Kook" (or anyone else for that matter) than in the church hearing the Word of God. The fact that the pastor said the "Kooks" were attracted to it is probably so right. I think I remember Dale Ratzlaff said in one of his books (correct me if I'm wrong) that one of the reasons his church began worshipping on Sunday rather than the Sabbath was the "Kooks" that were attracted to the peculiarity of the different day of worship. I still maintain that the reason people are atracted to the revelation seminars is that so many churches aren't teaching the book of Daniel - or Revelation for that matter. People don't have a correct understanding of the ten commandments or the covenants and can't refute the teachings they're getting about the state of the dead. Just about anything can be proven as scriptural as long as contxt is ignored. I heard virutally every week in my Amazing Facts class about the line upon line method that was God's plan for studying the BIble. Many churches are spiritually anemic. People aren't being taught to study the Bible for themselves. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 5090 Registered: 3-2004 |
That is one thing I really like about my church. Anyone can go to services, but if you want to join, it is recommended that a person take the Starting Point Class which is a class that gives an overview of the Bible and the Gospel of Jesus. It is 6 weeks long. To do any volunteer work one has to be baptized and be a born again Christian. Joyfulheart, how in the world can you sit in a class and listen to that "stuff"?? (shiver) Diana | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 116 Registered: 10-2006 |
Hi Diana, My time in the Amazing Facts class ended a few years ago. It's a long story. I'll share more in the members only section soon. | ||
| Susans Registered user Username: Susans Post Number: 851 Registered: 8-2006 |
I have an opinion on the personalities attracted to Adventism,(I have an opinion on everything ha!) but I don't have time to post it now. I'll try to tonight. Susan | ||
| Mommamayi Registered user Username: Mommamayi Post Number: 321 Registered: 12-2007  |
I have known 3 Adventist that committed suicide. I would say that at least 1 of those would definitely have some tie ins to the dysfunctional family life and religion. Another one was an elder in the church, but I do not know what motivated him. ~Mommamayi | ||
| 8thday Registered user Username: 8thday Post Number: 90 Registered: 11-2007 |
Mommamayi, 3 is a high number, as well as the Adventist Review article mentioned above (if anyone finds that, let me know!). Just seems higher than the average person would encounter in their circle of acquaintances, unless you were in the drug culture or something. Coleen, you raise an important point to - deaths which aren't exactly suicide but an indirect result of being under the SDA mindset. I recently heard that in the Mormon sect here in Texas that has been in the news also had a very high suicide risk. I have also heard the argument that the devil just works harder on those who are in the "truth". Makes God seem kinda weak doesn't it? (Message edited by 8thday on April 20, 2008) | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 260 Registered: 2-2003  |
I know my friend Gyula was suicidal while under the influence of Adventism, though the issues were complex. Since being convinced of the new covenant, he seems to be OK! Adrian | ||
| Mommamayi Registered user Username: Mommamayi Post Number: 322 Registered: 12-2007 |
Well, and also a couple of attempts, one being a roommate of mine in academy. |
