| Author | Message | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1459 Registered: 11-2005 |
Exposing Adventism - Remnant church to have continuing gift of prophecy Adventism assures us that God's remnant church will have "the continuing ministry of the gift of prophecy till earth's last days." Chapter Title: Working in a Changed AtmosphereEllen White has been dead now for the past 93 years, 5 months, and 11 days. Where is that continuing prophetic gift that the corporate "remnant church" will have? Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Akweavers Registered user Username: Akweavers Post Number: 82 Registered: 8-2008 |
I think some of the deluded souls think it is Ernie Knolls(sp) or David Gates | ||
| Freedom55 Registered user Username: Freedom55 Post Number: 10 Registered: 3-2008 |
I'm not wanting to speak on behalf of the SDA Church, but their answer will probably restate their fundamental belief #18 wherein it states: "As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction." In other words, they will say it is her "writings" that are now the continuing source of truth. That's how they will weasal out of this. But I believe the New Testament is clear that the church of Christ will be blessed by the gifts (note it is plural) of the spirit, including the gift of prophecy. It also says that our young men and young women will dream dreams, again not limited to one specific person but a plurality of people. So why does the SDA Church think that the spirit of prophecy only existed in one person? Its just not biblical. | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1460 Registered: 11-2005 |
So how is the SDA Church's claim that since her writings are "a continuing and authoritative source of truth" that her "spirit" lives on valid, while they deny each of us the same prophetic gift through the New Testament Bible writers? And then they have the nerve to make yesterday's memory verse Hebrews 1:1-2? It just goes "Zing!" -- right over the heads of the Adventists who are studying the new 1Q2009 Sabbath School Lesson Quarterly. Oh. I forgot! Ellen White was "more than a prophet" -- in fact even more than the "General Conference" -- which is God's highest agency on earth. That puts her way up there somewhere. In fact William Johnsson even stated that she is the Adventist "Word made flesh" -- so who needs Jesus? ==== Much more than a prophet ==== http://www.exposingadventism.com/content/facts/ellen-white_much-more-than-a-prophet.php She doesn't claim to be a "prophet", because she herself claims that she is "much more" than a prophet! Quote: Why have I not claimed to be a prophet?--Because in these days many who boldly claim that they are prophets are a reproach to the cause of Christ; and because my work includes much more than the word 'prophet' signifies. (Selected Messages, Vol 1, p. 32) Quote: To claim to be a prophetess is something that I have never done. If others call me by that name, I have no controversy with them. But my work has covered so many lines that I cannot call myself other than a messenger, sent to bear a message from the Lord to His people, and to take up work in any line that He points out. When I was last in Battle Creek, I said before a large congregation that I did not claim to be a prophetess. Twice I referred to this matter, intending each time to make the statement, 'I do not claim to be a prophetess.' If I spoke otherwise than this, let all now understand that what I had in mind to say was that I do not claim the title of prophet or prophetess. (Selected Messages, Vol 1, p. 34-35) Quote: "During the discourse, I said that I did not claim to be a prophetess. Some were surprised at this statement, and as much is being said in regard to it, I will make an explanation. Others have called me a prophetess, but I have never assumed that title. I have not felt that it was my duty thus to designate myself. Those who boldly assume that they are prophets in this our day are often a reproach to the cause of Christ. My work includes much more than this name signifies. I regard myself as a messenger, entrusted by the Lord with messages for His people. (Letter 55, 1905, Selected Messages, Vol 1, pp. 35-36) Quote: I am now instructed that I am not to be hindered in my work by those who engage in suppositions regarding its nature, whose minds are struggling with so many intricate problems connected with the supposed work of a prophet. My commission embraces the work of a prophet, but it does not end there. It embraces much more than the minds of those who have been sowing the seeds of unbelief can comprehend. (Letter 244, 1906. Addressed to elders of Battle Creek church, Selected Messages, Vol 1, page 36) ==== GC is God's highest authority on earth. Ellen White above GC ==== http://www.exposingadventism.com/content/facts/body-of-christ_gc-highest-authority-on-earth.php Seventh-day Adventism's "Pen of Inspiration" tells us, I have been shown that no man’s judgment should be surrendered to the judgment of any one man. But when the judgment of the General Conference, which is the highest authority that God has upon the earth, is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be maintained, but be surrendered. Your error was in persistently maintaining your private judgment of your duty against the voice of the highest authority the Lord has upon the earth. After you had taken your own time, and after the work had been much hindered by your delay, you came to Battle Creek in answer to the repeated and urgent calls of the General Conference. You firmly maintained that you had done right in following your own convictions of duty. You considered it a virtue in you to persistently maintain your position of independence. You did not seem to have a true sense of the power that God has given to His church in the voice of the General Conference. You thought that in responding to the call made to you by the General Conference you were submitting to the judgment and mind of one man. You accordingly manifested an independence, a set, willful spirit, which was all wrong. (Testimonies for the Church, Vol 3, p. 492) If the General Conference is the highest authority God has upon the earth, and Ellen’s authority is higher than the GC, then what does that make Ellen? ==== The Adventist "Word made flesh" ==== http://www.exposingadventism.com/content/facts/ellen-white_word-made-flesh.php I was reading the November 27, 1980 issue of Adventist Review (http://adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH1980-53/). There are two relevant articles in this issue concerning Ellen White's "inspiration". The second is an editorial by William Johnsson, "Reflections on Ellen White's inspiration", on page 12. We find this most amazing statement: "Unlike many conservative Christians, Adventists do not hold that inspiration works to dictate the words of God's prophets. We believe in inspired people, not inspired words (see Selected Messages, book 1, pp. 19-39). While this has been our position from the days of the pioneers, many of us have never thought through the doctrine. In practical terms we have been verbal inspirationists, subconsciously holding that, because inspiration brings God's message to people, it somehow must overpower the human medium. We have not taken seriously the implications of the expression "The Word was made flesh" (John 1:14), true for inspiration as well as for the Incarnation (ibid., p. 25). We have devalued humanity by our idea that divinity must supersede it. But the Word of God comes also as the word of man. It does not short-circuit the usual human channels for acquiring knowledge, even as it does not confer upon the inspired prophet a unique "Holy Ghost" literary style. The prophet as a total person is inspired. From the human perspective, the prophet, utilizing the common fund of human knowledge, displaying both strengths and weaknesses of expression is like any other writer. But because God is using the person as an instrument to convey His revelation, there is divine superintendence in selection of material and in the literary activity. The end result is always "Word made flesh" -- fully human but more than human." (Adventist Review, November 27, 1980, pp. 12-13) William Johnsson notes: "In the final analysis, however, inspiration cannot be proved -- neither of the Bible nor of Ellen White's writings. Inspiration is known in the inner being: as we read we hear God speak to us, and we know that these words of man are the Word of God. That is why, no matter what the process that brought it about, a book like The Desire of Ages is inspired. It bears the divine credentials. It issues in fruit that nourishes the soul and leads to eternal life." (ibid., p. 13) So you see, if Ellen White plagiarized material from her contemporaries, and included it in her writings, it was because she was "inspired" to do so. How convenient! Furthermore it is not her writings that are inspired, but her. In Adventist jargon, she is the "Word made flesh"! ==== God operates out of Washington DC ==== http://www.exposingadventism.com/content/facts/body-of-christ_this-office.php The June 1976 issue of Ministry Magazine, the official publication for Seventh-day Adventist ministers has a rather enlightening article. The title of the article, beginning on page 7, is “What It Means to Be Part of — The Highest Authority That God Has Upon Earth”. (http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/MIN/MIN1976-06/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=7) At a General Conference worship, Jan. 9, 1976, General Conference President Robert H. Pierson said: When you and I joined the General Conference family something special happened to us. When we begin work in the General Conference office we become part of what inspiration describes as God’s highest authority on earth. … All of us are something special in God’s sight. Our relationship to our church, to the world field, to one another, and to the work entrusted to us is unique. We are part of ‘the highest authority that God has on earth.’… This office is the headquarters of our Commanding Officer — the Lord Jesus Christ Himself. These three buildings are not ordinary buildings…. These buildings constitute a consecrated place where God, through His appointed servants —you, me — directs His worldwide work. … As those of us here on the General Conference staff continue our unique service for Him, let us remember that we are daily, hourly, momentarily a part of a group of leaders that constitute the highest authority of God upon earth… I guess the Baptists, Lutherans, Methodists, Evangelicals and others are not part of the Body of Christ? And what about the great reformers and preachers of the past that we studied about in our Bible classes? A triumphalistic church and a triumphalistic leadership will not be quick to repent and to openly acknowledge mistakes. Unqualified admission that mistakes have been made are rare in Adventism. A thoughtful observer could not but see that this Rome-like ecclesiology springs from a soteriology of the same character. Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Jonvil Registered user Username: Jonvil Post Number: 264 Registered: 4-2007 |
"Joel 2:28-29 "It will come about after this That I will pour out My Spirit on all mankind; And your sons and daughters will prophesy, Your old men will dream dreams, Your young men will see visions. (29) "Even on the male and female servants I will pour out My Spirit in those days." = ONE DEAD person, Ellen White? Note the intro to the new SS lessons about Ellen "For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he” (Luke 7:28). No greater prophet than John? That would include, apparently, Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos, even Moses. Yet, according to Jesus, John was the greatest of them all? How fascinating, especially because, unlike Isaiah, Jeremiah, Amos, and Moses— John the Baptist had no writings in the Bible, and yet John was a greater prophet than all those who, at least before him, did! The point? The prophetic gift wasn’t limited only to the prophets whose writing became Scripture. No, the prophetic gift included those whose work for the Lord involved something other than writing books of the Bible." Thus introducing Ellen as THE Spirit of Prophecy Such sophistry! "a subtle, tricky, superficially plausible, but generally fallacious method of reasoning." John Douglas | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 584 Registered: 7-2007 |
I wonder if the Mormon church would be glad to apply that about the "continuing gift of prophecy" to their church. After all, after their "prophet" died in June 1844, it was as if the "mantel" passed to Ellen White. Now that Ellen White has been dead for nearly a century, they'd be glad to note that they ALWAYS have a "prophet" and take the "mantel" back! At least, if I'm not mistaken, whoever is their current president at any given time, is their "prophet."  | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9199 Registered: 12-2003  |
Excellent insights and comments, Gilbert. One of Ellen's quotes on p. 10 in the EG White Study Notes, the companion volume that goes with the quarterly, is this: "The Ten Commandments were spoken by God Himself, and were written by His own hand. They are of divine, and not of human composition. But the Bible, with its God-given truths expressed in the language of men, presents a union of the divine and the human. Such a union existed in the nature of Christ, who was the Son of God and the Son of man. Thus it is true of the Bible, as it was of Christ, that "the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us" (John 1:14). There are so many problems there--The 10 Commandments are more direct, more God-originated than is the rest of Scripture. The rest of Scripture, like Jesus, is a union of human and divine. Therefore, the implication is that Jesus is less "God-originated" or holy or divine or--something--than are the 10 Commandments. When I mentioned this to my SDA in-laws, they agreed that the 10 C's were more original, more God-originated than all the rest of Scripture. They disagreed that the 10 C's were loftier than Jesus. Yet they agreed that the Bible, like Jesus, is "the Word made flesh" dwelling among us. Huh??? It's too crazy, too convoluted, too heretical to be borne! Colleen | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 1462 Registered: 11-2005 |
Colleen, From my notes ... Ellen White tells us: We have only glimmering light in regard to the exceeding breadth of the law of God. The law spoken from Sinai is a transcript of God's character. Many who claim to be teachers of the truth have no conception of what they are handling when they are presenting the law to the people, because they have not studied it; they have not put their mental powers to the task of understanding its significance. Their God-given powers are diverted and misapplied, and they come far short of apprehending what is truth. They have a smattering of knowledge, but they do not understand the relation of Christ to the law, and cannot present it in such a way as to unfold the plan of salvation to their hearers; for they do not let Christ into their hearts, or bring him into their discourses. They do not feel in their souls that they must plow deeper in their search for truth, so that they may declare the whole counsel of God. (Review and Herald, February 4, 1890) I have included the entire paragraph so we can see the context. The statement that I would like to focus on is the following: The law spoken from Sinai is a transcript of God's character. Now on the surface this sounds very good. Let take a moment to actually contemplate what she says here. When we read Ellen White's writings the natural tendency is to look for the devotional aspects, and overlook her doctrine. Adventists automatically consider her to be inspired. as a result the normal evaluation to see if what she is proposing is scriptural is short-circuited. The doctrine she proposes in this statement is what I would like to examine today. Throughout her writings she places great emphasis on the Mosaic Law. Christianity places great emphasis on Jesus. Is it biblical to say that the Mosaic Law is a transcript of God's character? First let's make sure we understand the meaning of the word "transcript." Dictionary.com tells us that the word "transcript" is a noun meaning: a written, typewritten, or printed copy; something transcribed or made by transcribing. an exact copy or reproduction, esp. one having an official status. an official report supplied by a school on the record of an individual student, listing subjects studied, grades received, etc. a form of something as rendered from one alphabet or language into another. Let's try out each of these four definitions and see which makes the most sense. The law spoken from Sinai is [a written, typewritten, or printed copy; something transcribed or made by transcribing] of God's character. The law spoken from Sinai is [an exact copy or reproduction, esp. one having an official status] of God's character. The law spoken from Sinai is [an official report supplied by a school on the record of an individual student, listing subjects studied, grades received, etc] of God's character. The law spoken from Sinai is [a form of something as rendered from one alphabet or language into another] of God's character. The first definition makes the most logical sense. The law spoken from Sinai is [a written copy] of God's character. I propose that it is the only definition that makes any sense. But is "the law spoken from Sinai a written copy of God's character?" Like many of Ellen White's statements the have a devotional ring that sounds appealing, but a doctrinal evaluation uncovers numerous disturbing contradictions to Scripture. Is the law spoken from Sinai a written copy of God's character? I would like to propose that Jesus, not the Ten Commandments, is the final revelation of God’s law and as such he is the definitive factor, that is, the lense through which all of God’s laws ought to be interpreted and applied. Additional reference material: http://www.jesusinstituteforum.org/Law-in-Christ.rtf Gilbert Jorgensen | ||
| Freedom55 Registered user Username: Freedom55 Post Number: 12 Registered: 3-2008 |
I find many things in the Old Testament are hard to take, and sometimes obscure what God is really like. To say that the law is a transcript of God's character limits God to 10 principles. And you can't limit God. You can't handcuff God. He is so much more. The clearest revelation we have of God is through Jesus Christ, who said, "If you've seen me, you've seen the Father." And we find in Jesus the most loving, kind and caring person the world has ever seen. The Bible states that God is Love, and love will have limitless expressions. God loves us and desires us to love Him and others. How do we accomplish that? Well, the 10 C's are a good start but if that's all it was, then we would limit love. It was possible for the rich young ruler to say that he had kept all of the commandments. But Jesus pointed out that he loved money more than people and thereby expanded the law of love. And you just have to look at Matthew 5 to see Jesus again expanding the law of love to include hatred & lust etc. I can't tell you how many times I have heard and even used that expression, that the law is a transcript of God's character, without really thinking about it. Its when you stop and consider it and lay it all out, like Gilbert has, that it becomes clear that the statement is in reality God limiting. I agree wholeheartedly with your proposition Gilbert. In fact, Jesus is not just the final revelation, but the total revelation and fulfillment of God's law. It really is all about Jesus, isn't it? | ||
| Animal Registered user Username: Animal Post Number: 357 Registered: 7-2008  |
I disagree with this statement very strongly. Hasnt God ALWAYS existed?? But, has sin always existed?...NO. Isnt sin "the transgression of the law"? The 10 commandments havent existed from eternity. But Christ has. Christ is a Living example..or reality, of Gods character. If one wants to understand the character of God..Look to Christ, for Jesus IS GOD. Seems simple enuff for me. The Law does not define God. But, God does define the Law. The Jews boasted in their knowledge of the law. But they didnt really know the "Lawgiver". They worshipped the law instead of the Lawgiver. Read Jeremiah 2:13,32. They forsook God and they also forgot God. If WE focus on Jesus, the character of God shines brightly. Of course, this is my opinion. Maybe I am wrong. But Maybe.....I'm right? Animal...By beholding we become changed...Look to Jesus !!! | ||
| Joyfulheart Registered user Username: Joyfulheart Post Number: 417 Registered: 10-2006 |
It sure is! You have great insight Freedom55! You know, one time at a Wednesday night prayer meeting they were talking about how obeying the ten commandments were God's ways of fulfilling the greatest commandment of loving God and loving others. We had just the Sabbath before taken our turn at feeding the homeless. There was a man there who was physically disabled, smelled stronger than anything I've ever smelled and spouting obscenities I had never heard before. He got his food and a few pair of socks, but nobody would talk with him. I was passing out food and not able to leave my post. Others were assigned to minister to the emotional and spiritual needs and pray with them. Nobody approached him, even when he was the only one left on the porch. It was still bothering the following Wednesday. I changed details and told the story kind of parable like. They remarked that he got his food and socks and that was what God required. They still maintained that the man in my story had been loved. My point was that the ten commandments are not enough of a definition of love. God said greater love hath no man but that he lay down his life for his friend. I think it is very possible to keep the ten commandments and fail to love. All you have to do is stay away from someone and you can say that you have loved him. The love Jesus taught is compassionate and considers the full range of a person's needs. I corinthians 13 describes so much more. I think God gave the ten commandments because the Israelites needed them. They were lying, cheating, stealing, killing etc. (They had a sinful nature like us.) God had to let them know that as His people they weren't to do those things any longer and made it a covenant. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 9203 Registered: 12-2003 |
Such a good point, Gilbert. And Joyfulheart, I agree that one can keep the 10 Commandments and fail to love. Actually, Jesus revealed God's glory by going to the cross. God's true glory and love have been most deeply revealed in Jesus' obedient sacrifice. The law, throughout the NT, is clearly described as being the device through which we become conscious of sin (see Romans 3:20). God's character is FAR more than that which brings the knowledge of sin. I've gotten to the place where the words "The law is the transcript of God's character" give me a visceral shudder. They are blatantly FALSE. Jesus is the revealer of God—not just because He showed us God's love but because He lived God's justice, mercy, authority, and original Life. Jesus showed us God's forbearance and mercy (Romans 3:25-27), His justice, His power over sin and death. The Law simply reveals sin by stating moral requirements. Jesus demonstrates God's authority and power over sin, over death, over US. Jesus IS God—and He brought God's divinity into time and made it visible to us in the physical realm. Amazing. Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 6210 Registered: 3-2004  |
I am finally learning the "pet" phrases adventists use in their doctrine. Some have changed in the years I did not go to church consistently and some are the same. It all adds up to dependence on EGW to confirm their doctrine. This one about the law being the transcript of God's character is not surprising but I have only recently heard it. Diana L |
