Post Number: 1321
|Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2013 - 2:31 pm: || |
There is another one very similar to this one, by Vernon Nye--I was a pupil of his for one class @ PUC many years ago.
Post Number: 1322
|Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2013 - 2:36 pm: || |
Post Number: 1323
|Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2013 - 2:43 pm: || |
OK--I have to post this, too--same subject (satan), but he's not leading a heavenly choir this time:
Post Number: 135
|Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2013 - 5:58 pm: || |
I remember being taught that growing up: that Lucifer had something to do with leading the choir in Heaven, or had something to do with music. It's a very vague memory. Nothing I've read in the Bible says anything about it and you certainly don't hear non-SDAs talking about it.
Post Number: 270
|Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2013 - 6:35 pm: || |
I wonder if it came from "Paradise Lost"/Milton. I don't know...just a thought.
Post Number: 71
|Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2013 - 8:45 pm: || |
Isaiah 14 and Ezekiel 28 are often used by many non SDA Christians to infer that Lucifer was a type of worship leader in heaven before he was cast out... Have also heard that because God inhabits the praise of his people, praise and worship is an important focus of spiritual warfare~ the enemy is loath to have the power of joyful praise and worship loosed...
Post Number: 14393
|Posted on Saturday, April 27, 2013 - 11:06 pm: || |
Oh, my goodness! You know, Adventism is quite the Luciferian religion.
Post Number: 16
|Posted on Monday, April 29, 2013 - 5:16 am: || |
Rain, I was given a dvd of a SDA preacher teaching that satan uses music to corrupt us, the premise is that he is the great deceiver who knows how to appear attractive and make beautiful music but attaches an evil message to it which gets into our subconscious. I can agree with this to a certain extent, there is a lot of popular music with messages that are selfish, adulterous or otherwise against Christian values. On the other hand there are many songs on the radio that promote love and respect for one another and its a simple thing to do to turn down the volume on the others. What I want to know is, where is the biblical proof about these qualities of satan?
Post Number: 14400
|Posted on Monday, April 29, 2013 - 3:44 pm: || |
Uh...there is none. I do know Scripture calls him the god of this age, and the prince of the power of the air. He does know how to mess with the media and the material things of our lives, so it's not a stretch to know that Satan does use music and art and literature and all the things that God has given us.
He's surprisingly unoriginal. He counterfeits the good things God has given us.
Nevertheless, Adventism gave Satan much more "credit" than the Bible gives him. EGW even said that satan sang four-part harmony himself in heaven, and that he was the choir director before he fell. None of this is biblical.
Scripture certainly straightens out our world views!
Post Number: 274
|Posted on Monday, April 29, 2013 - 4:49 pm: || |
Colleen, it seemed to me, that I heard much more about Satan than Jesus. I didn't understand why they were so focused on Satan. Of course I do now. All the odd, dysfunctional, unorthodox, heretical stuff came to a head about 10 years ago. So began my search and it all became clear.
Post Number: 748
|Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2013 - 12:44 pm: || |
What you say here is interesting for me. I have never been SDA, so I did not know EGW taught this stuff about Satan and music.
What I have heard is that some modern charismatic teachers claim that Satan was worship leader in heaven before he fell, and some go into all kinds of details about it.
As far as I can figure, the only verses there are to go on are:
"All your pomp has been brought down to the grave, along with the noise of your harps" - Isaiah 14:11, and
"Your settings and mountings were made of gold" - Ezekiel 28:13 - NIV, the KJV is perhaps more applicable to music.
Anyway, it is all rather tenuous and unconvincing. Not all theologians agree that these passages even refer to Satan, though personally I think they probably do. Still, it is not much to build a strong theological position on, is it?
Post Number: 189
|Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2013 - 1:02 pm: || |
I remember being taught and even teaching that Lucifer was the choir director of the angels. He had the most beautiful voice and wrote wonderful music. Now he is Satan and His music has changed. Thanks for bringing this up. It is another elenism I can discard.
Post Number: 425
|Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2013 - 1:34 pm: || |
Ok, i have a question . When i was in 5th grade at Fresno Adventist Academy in around 1961 or so our teacher who was very devoted to Ellen White and pretty much had no devotio. to anything Christian or Biblical taught us that we should always pray in our minds and not out.loud because God knows our thoughts and the devil, satan can't know our rhoy thoughts so if we pray out loud satan will hear our prayers and satan will answer our prayers therefore tricking us into thinking God is answering our prayers. Were any of you taught this too,?
Post Number: 1077
|Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2013 - 1:52 pm: || |
Yes~several of my adventist elementary school teachers taught this in my classes.
Post Number: 275
|Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2013 - 3:35 pm: || |
I remember hearing that. And I came in as an adult in 1976. Once again...fear, and making Satan more powerful than God.
Post Number: 72
|Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2013 - 9:26 pm: || |
David Guzik's commentary on Isaiah 14:11 suggests he understands satan to have been a type of worship leader - David Guzik is not charismatic, unless Calvery Chapels are charismatic... (He is Calvery Chapel pastor) Is this concept more widely accepted perhaps?
Post Number: 14405
|Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2013 - 10:13 pm: || |
Well, I have to say I wonder where this notion of Lucifer as worship leader came from. As Doc said above, there's really no biblical source that could give this idea shape. (And for those of you who don't know Doc, he is a bona fide theologian ;)!
The fact that this idea shows up elsewhere, especially among the more charismatic teachers, does make me wonder if somewhere along the line some extra-biblical sources informed some of them. This makes me wonder what Mormon tradition says about Lucifer. I know Mormon pre-history and Adventist pre-history have some similarities, at least in terms of Jesus and Lucifer. I also know that Mormons also make a huge focus of classical music, similar to the huge focus Adventists place on it.
Just wondering out loud...
Post Number: 190
|Posted on Tuesday, April 30, 2013 - 10:20 pm: || |
I used to use "Margie Asks Why" (child's Great Controversy) to tell the story of creation and the beginning. Maybe that is where I heard it. I don't have my copy anymore.
Post Number: 21
|Posted on Wednesday, May 01, 2013 - 5:28 pm: || |
Punababe....email me. I think maybe our paths have crossed in the past. I put it up on my profile...ignore the web address part.
Post Number: 173
|Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2013 - 10:29 am: || |
PLEASE READ: I wouldn't give Ellen credit for the whole Lucifer-was-worship-leader or Lucifer-can-make-great-music teachings, these concepts are often brought up in holiness circles as well as evangelical circles, and Ellen is a known plagiarist besides....
To me, honestly, I find music inherently worshipful of whatever its subject matter happens to be, and I have very little use for music that is not praise/worship, I tolerate songs with educational value, historical value, etc.... BUT to each their own.
If you want another perspective on this which is, as far as I know, in no way linked to EGW or SDA, PLEASE DO check out the documentaries:
They Sold Their Souls for Rock and Roll Part 1 of 4 (This was somehow linked to "Cross TV")
Hell's Bells 2 The Power and Spirit of Popular Music (This is from a completely different evangelical group than the first link, "Hell's Bells" is the name of an AC/DC song, hehe)
Hell's Bells - The Dangers of Rock'n'Roll (This was made like a decade before its sequel, but it does bring up some information not found in Hell's Bells 2, 2 is definitely the better documentary between them, more comprehensive and professional)
There are similar documentaries only about Hollywood/TV instead:
Pandora's Box Office
Hollywood Unmasked 2(IIRC this one is better than the first)
There are other such documentaries out there, these are some of the best made IMHO.... I would just ask that you guys consider that even a broke clock is right sometimes, just because Ellen taught these things doesn't mean SHE came up with them or that they are not true. Now I'm not suggesting to take those verses about lucifer's pipes and timbrels and consider everything in these documentaries canon, I'm just asking that we all use our God-given discernment to realize what kind of spirit is behind the messages pop culture/mainstream media/music are injecting into our society, especially victimized in this are the youth. There are very overt, NOT AT ALL VEILED, antichrist messages, where these artists are blaspheming and being very vulgar with thousands of their teenage fans praising them in front of the stage, I've done things just as bad especially when I was an atheist, I'm not painting these victims as the enemy, I just want us all to realize what we're up against in this media-powered world so that we can better relate to people who are fontanelle-deep in this evil.
Post Number: 14431
|Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2013 - 11:58 am: || |
Colossians, I'm not thinking Ellen White came up with the Lucifer-music connection. I'm thinking that idea came straight from her spirit guide...straight from satan's minions. Whatever the case, we can't assume that scenario is true; satan has no truth in him. Even if he WAS a heavenly choir leader, that fact does not make him in any way admirable. He's dangerous, and we have to understand that whatever he has tried to make us believe is actually a twist of what is true.
I do think it's interesting that false gospels use music to insinuate their messages into people's minds. No surprise there...sigh.
Post Number: 175
|Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2013 - 12:33 pm: || |
Oh definitely Colleen, I don't believe it makes him admirable, but instead dangerous.
As for the no truth in him, I of course agree with this, but it can be more complicated than that, for example when a demon tells someone where their long lost wedding ring is, the demon is telling the truth about the location of the ring, but is not telling the truth about how it's an inroad into the person's life and no ring is ever worth such an association having been made.
Anyway, I'm just concerned about the state of pop culture. My concerns and observations, and for the most part the content of all the above mentioned films, do not RELY on believing satan was worship leader before his expulsion. I would be shocked if angels couldn't make music, I know I can make music, but it's nothing you'd want to buy I think there could be something to the verses, but they aren't required to be read in that context to realize what's going on in mainstream media, and I also very much wanted to point out that EGW doesn't deserve credit for that particular teaching about being a worship leader etc.
And I only just now realized that Rocky pointed this very thing out more than two weeks ago, oh well......
Yeah, I think it makes sense experientially but it's useless for standard theology.
Post Number: 277
|Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2013 - 4:00 pm: || |
I agree...Chis White does an awesome job on his videos.
I think Goodfight Ministries did the Hollywood Unmasked documentary. Joe Schimmel (Goodfight Ministries) does a lot of really good stuff...refuting false teachers, as well as exposing a lot of the what is going on in the entertainment business. Soooo much occultic/spiritualistic stuff. Really horrendous!
Vigilant Christian is also a good resource. Lots of people exposing the occult and spreading the Gospel.
Post Number: 177
|Posted on Wednesday, May 15, 2013 - 4:29 pm: || |
Foofighter, yes I'm familiar with Joe Schimmel from one of the Megiddo movies I believe it was, he was being interviewed at a desk and was just 100% deadly accurate, about how the NWO wants people to fear and hate and take up arms and fight when Jesus wants us to abide in Him and His Power and Peace basically - trying to blow the lid off the Hegelian Dialectic before it is even in place. bwahah!
I'll have to look up Vigilant Christian, not familiar on that point. Thanks a lot