Post Number: 3
|Posted on Tuesday, December 22, 2015 - 3:14 pm: || |
Because of my Adventist upbringing i've always believed the rapture to be unbiblical...and for obvious reason! It would fly right in the face of the deceptive doctrines of the Sabbath as the seal of God, the IJ, soul sleep etc...because after all how could anyone be translated to heaven without having to withstand persecussion and answering for their sins and works or lack of works. So my question is, is the rapture truly biblical, and what supporting evidence in the bible is there for it. Id like to study this as even though ive been able to lift the Adventist colored glasses of my eyes, im still not sure about this. Thank you!
Post Number: 1940
|Posted on Tuesday, December 22, 2015 - 3:34 pm: || |
If you can wait until after Christmas....?
I have sound reasons I can post for you Why you can believe
in a Pre-Tribulational Rapture! It is the "Blessed HOPE" for the Believers
who are the, "The Bride" of CHRIST !
~~~MERRY CHRISTMAS~~~ (^_^) ~
Post Number: 5
|Posted on Tuesday, December 22, 2015 - 6:15 pm: || |
Three comments on the doctrine of the rapture that might help you focus your search.
1) The term "rapture" comes from a latin translation of 1 Thessalonians 4:17 (the "caught up" or "taken up" verb is "rapiemur' in the latin vulgate). So, everyone who thinks that 1 Thessalonians is Scripture believes in a rapture, in one sense or another. The question then becomes: what is the nature and timing of the "being caught up" event which 1 Thessalonians 4:17 describes?
2) In our time in the West, "the rapture" typically refers to a particular understanding of the "being caught up" event in 1 Thessalonians 4:17, and is commonly termed the "pretribulational rapture" or possibly "secret rapture", and is broadly associated with a related set of doctrines called Dispensationalism. The understanding here is that Jesus comes and catches up believers towards the end of the age, right before the start of the antichrist's great tribulation, which lasts for seven years, and then Jesus comes back with full-on power and glory. The particulars about the rapture's timing is constructed by integrating the 1 Thess 4 text along with other parts of scripture, especially Daniel (9 especially), the Olivet Discourse (Matt 24, Mark 13, Luke 21), and of course Revelation.
3) Another common way to understand 1 Thess 4:17 is to say that alive & newly resurrected believers are caught up in a similar sense to the pretribulational view, but this happens when Jesus comes in great glory (as opposed to a sort of two-stage event), and is after the antichrist has been revealed and has persecuted the church, but prior to final judgment or God's wrath at the end of the age. After wrath or judgment, the believers then accompany the Lord back down to the earth (or new earth). Depending on the particular view here, the believers may spend some time in heaven in the presence of God, or may immediately accompany Jesus back down to earth.
Hope that helps. I myself do not find arguments for a pretribulational rapture compelling at this point in my life, but I do believe there is a rapture which accompanies the second coming of Jesus, based on 1 Thess 4.
Post Number: 15304
|Posted on Wednesday, December 23, 2015 - 8:10 pm: || |
Tmagikal, the issue of pre-tribulational or post-tribulational rapture is what we call a "secondary issue" within Christianity and is not considered a dividing issue among believers. On this forum people vary widely in their understanding of this subject.
Ignobleberean has done a great job summarizing the two main views.
I have come to believe the issue of a future for Israel is a more significant question than is the timing of the rapture. A pre-tribulational rapture is more often associated with a belief in an earthly millennial reign of Christ (Rev. 20) prior to the new heavens and the new earth, although people with other views of the rapture also believe in the earthly millennium.
All of this is considered secondary and is not to become a point of division among believers. Nevertheless, although I have some questions about the pre-trib rapture, I tend to lean that direction...but I will be fine even if it's a mid or post-trib rapture. :-) I do see a future for Israel, however...but at the same time, this issue doesn't cause me to break fellowship with my brothers and sisters in Christ.
Post Number: 3194
|Posted on Thursday, December 24, 2015 - 7:27 am: || |
I'm with you Colleen on this topic. Although I also lean in the direction of the pre-trib view, my reason for doing so is founded upon knowing our Savior warned us he will return 'at a time we least expect'. I don't really concern myself to much with the timing but at this stage of my life I am really hoping for it to be soon.
The original handle for me was 'Fearless Phil at the Wheel' which was a reference to my driving skills...or...the lack thereof years ago when I flipped my 4-wheel drive up-side-down.
(Message edited by philharris on December 24, 2015)
Post Number: 1836
|Posted on Thursday, December 24, 2015 - 10:25 am: || |
Great, concise post from Ignobleberean. The truth is, when it comes to the exact timing and sequence of being "caught up" to meet the Lord, the Bible isn't really all that clear. I know there are those who would strongly disagree with that statement, but in my opinion, either position (pre-trib or post-trib) requires some degree of speculation. Witness the fact that there are truly great men and women of God, who are very careful biblical scholars, who use excellent hermeneutics, and who agree on most other things, yet they can reach no consensus on this issue. In my opinion, God never intended to give us every last detail of end time events. Instead, He chose to give us a broad overview or outline and emphasize the most important point: In the end, God wins and paradise is restored.
Post Number: 2276
|Posted on Thursday, December 24, 2015 - 11:01 am: || |
I'll add my $0.02, echoing Colleen and Chris. I believe that an honest look at any of the positions results in some unanswered questions. Most views look great when you only look at the passages they emphasize, but start having questions when you look at the ones that they minimize.
Personally I lean towards amillennialism first and post-trib second. I have the fewest "left-over" questions from these, but there are still questions.
Post Number: 674
|Posted on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 7:44 am: || |
Okay, I've waited very patiently for your exposition on the Pre-Trib Rapture.
You aren't going to make me wait until next year for it, are you?
"I have come to believe the issue of a future for Israel is a more significant question than is the timing of the rapture."
I believe the issue of the future of Israel and the Pre-Trib Rapture are one and the same. I have come to some pretty startling conclusions in favor of the Pre-Trib view, from an unexpected source "out in left field:" 2,000 years of brilliant Jewish analysis of the Book of Ezekiel and other Old Testament Prophecies; and the predictions of many of their most eminent Sages strongly-support the Pre-Trib Rapture, albeit indirectly.
(Message edited by Resjudicata on December 28, 2015)
Post Number: 1941
|Posted on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 12:35 pm: || |
OK ~ Resjudicata !
I will "get on this" before 2016 !
Really, however, I shy away from discussing "PT" Rapture in this 'venue'!
I should NOT have made any comment~ But, when it comes to the subject
of the "Pre Tribulation" RAPTURE of CHRIST for HIS "Bride" the Church,
I want to 'speak out' because for one thing, the "PT" Rapture changes the dynamics (or should change ~IMO~)
the way Christians are personally compelled to 'share' the Gospel!
How about if I email you articles and some 'links' to 'sites'?
I once had some really informative books on this
subject, I have been studying since 1998 !
Post Number: 6
|Posted on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 12:57 pm: || |
Hi Mjcmcook - I hope I didn't discourage you from sharing resources on the board. I'd be interested to know what books or articles you've found helpful.
For all -- As far as the relationship between Israel's and the timing of the rapture, one deviation from a traditional pre-tribulational timing is the prewrath view, which still strongly maintains a future for ethnic israel. The difference basically is that the church will face the tribulation of the antichrist (which is an end-time persecution not to be equated with the end-time wrath of God or His judgment), but will be rapture-d prior to the outpouring God's wrath. Its deviation from the pre-trib view is primarily based on some exegetical issues that the pre-trib view runs into with 2 Thess 2, the semantics of terms used by the NT writers to express the imminence of Jesus's return, and other things here and there.
One person whose resources I've found helpful is Alan Kurschner. His main book is "Antichrist Before the Day of the Lord" and his website, which is updated frequently, is http://www.alankurschner.com/
Post Number: 675
|Posted on Monday, December 28, 2015 - 2:10 pm: || |
Please email your cites, but more importantly I would like to hear how you have analyzed and maybe reexamined your own relationship with Christ in light of your acceptance of the TP Rapture.
Post Number: 108
|Posted on Wednesday, December 30, 2015 - 6:57 am: || |
From what I know: The pre-trib rapture was not taught or believed by the early Christian Church; in fact did not become a doctrine until well after the Protestant Reformation. This gives me great pause.
Many American Christians believe that it is the only way to view the Scripture; this is nonsense. Historically, only a very small bubble of world Christians believe this scheme.
American Dispensationalism is/was a grid used to force a novel hermeneutic on the Scripture. Those theologians who still hold to it have drastically revised it since the times of Darby and Schofield, and I think the view has seen attrition in recent decades.
Schofield Dispensationalism causes many more problems than it attempted to solve; it views the plan of salvation shattered into numerous covenants, whereas Paul taught that only the Abrahamic Covenant that mattered; Christians are part of this covenant through the "seed" who is Christ.
Off the topic, but Adventists believe that Christians are part of the Mosaic covenant, which is the Ten Commandments (Deut. 5), which is a covenant that was contrary to the Abrahamic Covenant (Gal. 3)
The Baptist church where we attend teaches a literal second coming, because it seems to have most biblical support. However, it is a "soft" doctrine as we have amillenials and pre-tribs in our congregation. It has never been a point of contention.
(Message edited by leifl on December 30, 2015)
Post Number: 678
|Posted on Wednesday, December 30, 2015 - 8:17 am: || |
I respectfully disagree that the Pre-trib rapture had no support from the Early Church Fathers:
Moreover, as we have been rewriting Lying for God, Tenth Addition, we have retained one of the world's foremost Talmudic Scholars and Hebrew experts. It is stunning.....just STUNNING.....how more than 2,000 years of Talmudic study and Rabbinical opinions absolutely supports the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.
IF the Book of Ezekiel was written to and for the Nation of Israel, then it only stands to reason that their own experts should be consulted on eschatology from that book, right?
That is what has been the clincher in accepting the Pre-Trib rapture: The stunning and unintended support for it in 2,000 years of intense Talmudic study.
Post Number: 2277
|Posted on Wednesday, December 30, 2015 - 10:29 am: || |
Most of the "supports" for the pre-trib rapture given in the document that Res linked appear (at least to me) to be going to the Lord in death rather than in rapture. Ultimately, I think most of the statements are sufficiently vague that each person will see what they already believe in the wording.
The one that appears highly convincing (Ephraim) appears much different when you continue reading the following paragraphs in the document.
I have a difficult time accepting that Talmudic and Rabbinical writings support the pre-trib rapture. The rapture (pre- or post-trib) is a New Testament teaching. If you are meaning to say that they support the Messianic establishment of a political kingdom for the Jewish people, that would be easier to believe.
Post Number: 679
|Posted on Wednesday, December 30, 2015 - 11:13 am: || |
Rabbinical authority predicted and goaded on the modern-day restoration of the Nation of Israel; predicts the final battle of Gog/Magog(from the Book of Ezekiel); and supports the dispensationalist view of the Tribulation (particularly from the Book of Daniel).
While Rabbinical authority clearly rejects the New Testament, their actions and interpretations (which would require a book-length treatment to list and analyze them all) strongly support dispensationalism. Dispensationalism is the bedrock theory of the PT Rapture.
Furthermore, they have predicted that prior to the Battle of Gog/Magog, there will be the sudden and complete irrelevance/disappearance of their most powerful allies, which they recognize as the Christians in the United States. I concede that does not necessarily "prove" the PT Rapture, but certainly only the theory of the PT Rapture "fits" with this.
Of particular interest for our day and time is the analysis of the Gaon of Vilna, who based his thinking on his unprecedented memorization of the Talmud at a very young age. His disciples were instrumental to the reforming of the Modern State of Israel:
The Gaon declared that when Russia "goes into the Crimea" (which it occupied last year); and when Iran and Russia are allied together in Syria (which they clearly did this year); "put on your Shabbat clothes and leave them on, because the Messiah is near."
We have been advised by our Hebrew/Talmudic expert that the vast majority of Rabbinical authority believes that Ezekiel's prophesied Battle of Gog/Magog has began in Syria.
(Message edited by Resjudicata on December 30, 2015)
Post Number: 2278
|Posted on Wednesday, December 30, 2015 - 1:33 pm: || |
The discussion in Daniel about tribulation hardly warrants an understanding of PT rapture.
And there shall be a time of trouble, such as never has been since there was a nation till that time. But at that time your people shall be delivered, everyone whose name shall be found written in the book. And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 And those who are wise shall shine like the brightness of the sky above; and those who turn many to righteousness, like the stars forever and ever.
I disagree, the core of dispensationalism does not require that the rapture is pre-trib.
Nor does the "disappearance" of US allies. Obama has nearly singlehandedly accomplish this. Obama 2.0 (Hillary) might finish it.
I hear many wild and fantastic claims by PT Dispensationalist, most of which wilt under close scrutiny. I have a hard time accepting the idea that those who reject Christ and the writings of the New Testament would have a better understanding of prophecy.
However, I will bow out of the conversation at this point as I have found that despite the statements that this is a "secondary" issue and isn't a "divisive" point among believers, that openly questioning the PT rapture in this community is not accepted, and that most PT dispensationalists do make this a divisive point and elevate it to a status almost equal to the Gospel.
Post Number: 680
|Posted on Wednesday, December 30, 2015 - 2:04 pm: || |
I am sorry that you feel that way, because I was enjoying my conversation with you. Please reconsider.
I continue to have many questions about the PT Rapture, and have only recently came to accept many of its tenets. I definitely believe that it leads to "Prophecy via headlines" in way too many instances. Clearly some of the proponents engaged in prohibited Day-setting in September of 2015. And I belong to a denomination that is "agnostic" on the whole issue, and if anything, is likely anti-PT rapture.
One of my backgrounds (besides law of course) is International Relations. I won a prestigious scholarship and studied six months in London for my undergrad degree in International Relations; and six months in Athens for my Classical Rhetoric Degree. I have worked "backwards" from the present disaster in Syria; back through my legal training and experience (which helps to unravel Talmud study); and back through my experience in Greece to come to the conclusion that what is happening in Syria right now has no "earthly" explanation or solution. There are forces that have been unleashed there that have experts of every political persuasion completely baffled. I had a phone call with an esteemed political science professor, and he shocked me when he said that he believed what was going on there was spiritual, and definitely related to the end of the world. That is the call that set me off studying end times eschatology.
I was in Syria for a few days on my way "home" from Greece. I've been to the Street called Straight and all over Damascus. When I returned to the United States and heard from my Fundamentalist/Dispensationalist friends that somehow Syria was going to be the center of the future end times events; it was enough to strongly impact my faith in a negative way. I had been to Syria, and I was confident in unequivocally-stating that anyone that believed that miserable, fetid, backwards, stinky-hellhole was going to be the center of the world, had more a few screws loose. I was struggling to retain any sort of belief in Christianity, and their ignorant opinions about Syria sent a cruise missile right into the side of my Christian belief system. I simply could not accept the idea that Syria would somehow, someday be the center of world events.
Well, now it is.
What is striking to me is that NONE of the experts in the field of International Relations seems to have any sort of a rational solution to it, either. It is simply a situation that has come unglued and nobody knows how to put it back together again. That is just shocking to me.
I have friends that live in Israel. They describe the Temple Mount as a slowly-growing spiritual "Volcanic Cone." People get stabbed everyday in Israel, for no reason, other than someone thinks that the Jews are trying to take over the Temple Mount. Rabbinical decrees forbid Jews from even going up there!
More and more, I see these events having no human explanation, and no human solution. It is definitely coming to a head, and it is coming unwound.
I find myself drawn to the PT Rapture explanation, in spite of myself, my background, and my natural inclinations.
Post Number: 1837
|Posted on Wednesday, December 30, 2015 - 2:51 pm: || |
The scenarios under discussion involving Israel are consistent with premillennial eschatological views, but are largely inconsistent with amillennial or postmillennial eschatological views. I believe you could say something similar about common Jewish interpretations of the Prophets (like Ezekiel). So the discussion above makes some sense in terms of defending a premillennial view.
Having said that, the pre-trib rapture is just one timing scenario within the spectrum of premillennial views. Even just within Dispensationalism, a subset of premillennial views, a pretrib view isn't the only dispensational view. A mid-trib (or pre-wrath) position is also gaining some popularity with some dispensationalists.
My point is, I think there is some confusion here. The arguments advanced support a literal understanding of Israel's future prominence in end time events and in the millennium. The arguments advanced support premillenialism in general and perhaps more specifically dispensationalism. What I'm not following is how logically the arguments especially support one specific timing scenario for being caught up to meet the Lord.
To be abundantly clear, I can completely understand how one could say that prophecies in Eziekiel concerning Israel, a new temple, a final battle, etc will have a literal, physical, future fulfillment (I don't know if that is the correct interpretation, but I understand it). But none of that absolutely necessitates Christians being removed from the earth before any of that can happen. Maybe they are, but it seems like a leap of logic or at best speculative. Possible, but neither certain nor required.
Post Number: 681
|Posted on Wednesday, December 30, 2015 - 3:31 pm: || |
I agree with you that the timing of the rapture is not the central issue. Dispensationalism is the central bone of contention. And I was shocked when I realized that rabbinical authority absolutely supports dispensationalism.
Secondly, while the timing of the rapture Is not the central issue for me, I find it very curious that the Rabbinical interpretations of the Book of Ezekiel do seem to indicate the sudden disappearance of Israel's strongest ally. You can call that incompetence on Obama's part, or you can just accept the opinions of the experts, and that is Syria is a gigantic sucking maw, that has no solution and no human intervention can make one bit of difference. The best idea that anyone has had so far is Russia, which basically has suspended the law against attacking civilians, and goes about merrily bombing hospitals, ambulances, and laying waste to heavily populated civilian residential areas. That is the best human thinking going on right now: suspend 100 year-old laws of war that have made war more humane!
Israel has "skin in this game." And to a shocking extent, the rabbis are having a great deal of impact on Israeli foreign policy. Russia and Iran are united at Israel's doorstep. That would have been unthinkable just 1 year ago. Only the prophecies of Ezekiel seen to make any sense of it.
The Israelis are bracing themselves for the imminent loss of their staunchest ally. That's next, according to Ezekiel. That "fits" with the PT Rapture.
Post Number: 1838
|Posted on Thursday, December 31, 2015 - 10:09 am: || |
Well, it fits with a PT rapture if you assume the U.S. is mostly made up of believing, born again Christians who will be raptured away, thereby removing the major source of U.S. support for Israel. However, the data suggests we're a shrinking minority in the country and while we're an important part of the pro-Israel lobby, we're not the entirety of that lobby. Secular conservatives and U.S. Jews probably make up a larger part of the pro-Israel lobby in the U.S. So it's entirely possible that a PT rapture would have a relatively small impact on U.S. policy. My point being, all of this is highly speculative. Interesting, but no more than speculation.
Post Number: 109
|Posted on Thursday, December 31, 2015 - 11:14 am: || |
It's really easy to jump from one lunatic boat (SDAism) to another. Unplugging from the influence and authority of Adventism leaves one in an inevitable pendulum swing. Few recover to a stable existence.
I think that the type of personality drawn to Adventism tends to be obsessive/compulsive (hi, that's me!). When I was 10, I used to sneek out of bed to finish writing a computer program, running through lines of code until I was sure it would work (the computer was at school).
When the Lord opened my eyes to the gospel some years ago, I bought all the books (Piper, MacArthur, Sproul, Calvin, Luther, etc.) and started to go to conferences around the continent on our family holidays.
In recent months/years, the Lord has shown me that what I need is to spend more energy at our local church, where we have been blessed with two very gifted pastors/teachers/shepherds, that there this is where the life of the "church" is to happen. Not so much through the blogs and YouTube videos of celebrity preachers and teachers, though these can be a great tool. I have been a deacon/elder at our church now for two years, which has been a great experience.
When we joined this church about 5 years ago, I realized that I really needed to get out of my spiritual cycle and learn from the seasoned Christians around me. Their approach to Christianity was so different from mine, their approach to life in Christ was new to me. They weren't asking the questions I was, and though smarter than I, were willing to leave the tensions alone in certain debates and doctrinal paradoxes. I would parse these difficult subjects until it drove me mad (Trinity anyone?)
I think (we) formers risk becoming the very thing we have rejected. It's human nature. I'm curious how many of you are actively functioning in a solid Bible-believing church? It's not enough to exist (whether physically, mentally, or spiritually) in a community of formers.
My wife and I will be in the Loma Linda area from january 15-27, so would enjoy again meeting with some of you.
Post Number: 15307
|Posted on Thursday, December 31, 2015 - 11:58 am: || |
Leif, we'd love to have you join us again! I agree with you that it's not good to stay in a community of formers without worshiping with and being taught by Christians who know Scripture. Being under the sound teaching of Gary Inrig, for example, has been a huge part of losing our Adventist paradigm. We've begun to see Scripture through different lenses, and it makes sense that areas of belief, such as the timing of the rapture, absolutely must not divide believers.
And just by the way, I know I've posted this before, but since the subject has come up again, I'll post Gary's email response to me about five years ago when I asked him about this subject. As you'll see, he doesn't give lots of detail, but he gives an overview that is helpful. I have learned to trust Gary's handling of Scripture; he studies from the original languages, he pays attention to context, and he connects words and references throughout Scripture to show how the same ideas are written about by different authors in the two different testaments.
Here is his response:
1. The connection of the issue [of a future for Israel] with dispensationalism is a red herring. While dispensationalists certainly believe in a restoration of national Israel, the idea certainly didn't originate with them. Postmillennialists such as Jonathan Edwards were speaking of such a thing a hundred years before. Premillennialism has a far more ancient heritage than that.
2. The entire issue is tinged with a sad history of anti-Semitism on the part of the Christian church, that has roots back into the early church. The Jewish rejection of Christ, the Jewish revolt in the second century and the desire of early Christians to distance themselves from the Jewish people led to a spiritualizing and de-Judaizing of the Biblical record. Sadly, this led to replacement theology and a "supercessionist" viewpoint (the church gets Israel's blessings; they get to keep the curses) which bedeviled "Christian" theology down through the centuries. Much of what was done by Christians to Jews was utterly shameful.
3. The modern secular nation of Israel remains in a state of unbelief and rebellion against God, just as the United States, Canada and all nations do. The time of national salvation has not come. That means that Christians cannot and ought not mindlessly defend Israel's actions. But the reemergence of the nation after 1900 years of dispersion is a remarkable event, especially in the light of OT promises, that it is foolish to deny.
4. It is well and good to be suspicious of the novel. However, the ultimate question must be, Is it Biblical? After all, some of those who most ardently profess the novelty of dispensationalism ardently defend the Reformation or Reformed theology, which are only 250 years earlier. The fact is, as James Orr showed in a book called The Progress of Dogma, certainly issues have come to the forefront in Christian history at different points in history. So the deity of Christ and the Trinity were of central importance in the early centuries, and then concern shifted to the nature of the person of Christ (what did it mean that he was God and man). Issues of the nature of the church formed the next period (with sad conclusions), and soteriology came to the fore during the Reformation. Eschatology wasn't on the front burners for most until the 18th and 19th centuries.
Post Number: 44
|Posted on Wednesday, January 27, 2016 - 10:38 pm: || |
I'm firmly in the historic postmillenial camp. It does not align with today's headlines but that's not a reason to reject it. We all tend to view history through the lens of our very brief time on earth. A longer view of the arc of history makes for a very solid case for postmillenialism. Ironically, this is the view that William Miller rejected. It's high time to recover "lost truth".