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Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 649
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Monday, June 22, 2009 - 10:57 am: |     |
25 Now a discussion arose between some of John's disciples and a Jew over purification. 26 And they came to John and said to him, “Rabbi, he who was with you across the Jordan, to whom you bore witness—look, he is baptizing, and all are going to him.” 27 John answered, “A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven. 28 You yourselves bear me witness, that I said, ‘I am not the Christ, but I have been sent before him.’ 29 The one who has the bride is the bridegroom. The friend of the bridegroom, who stands and hears him, rejoices greatly at the bridegroom's voice. Therefore this joy of mine is now complete. 30 He must increase, but I must decrease.” John 3:25-30; ESV
A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven. Verse 27
Takes ALL boasting out of any equation involving the things of God and us. We have nothing unless it is given to us by God.
I am struck by this, because it is easy to become confident in oneself. - I know I can begin to feel self-sufficient.
Another former and I presented in a church about Adventism this past Sunday ... The first hour we were both scared - literally crying out to God for help. It went well - we felt a sense of the Spirit present sustaining us ... The second hour we felt less "in need" we thought. We were feeling more confident the first hour had gone so well ... so "we cried out" less. The time went ok - but something was absent ... we both agreed ... something was missing - was less present than the first hour. We sensed a lessening of the Presence ... and both of us were convicted that we need to have sustained prayer and not become confident in ourselves, but constantly holding our confidence in the Lord.
It is a good thing when we sense our desperate need of Him.
I read this section of John this morning and this afternoon I needed a scripture break.. More than a break, I needed a word from the Lord. I went to His Living Word ... I hadn't seen this in the text this morning ... but this afternoon I "needed" Him ... notice the wording, "The one who has the bride IS the BRIDEGROOM."
This morning I read it as if "I" had the bridegroom. This afternoon as I feel my need of Him - I read again ... I am the bride - Jesus is the bridegroom and it is Jesus who has me. HE holds me - HE sustains me - it is HIM, NOT me. HE has me.
John, in the text, was telling his disciples that Jesus' has the right to the people - not John. John needed to decrease so Jesus' could increase.
I am glad He has me and not the other way around. |
Animal
Registered user
Username: Animal
Post Number: 534
Registered: 7-2008
| | Posted on Monday, June 22, 2009 - 11:31 am: | |
Hi there....
The same can be said for the Holy Spirit. Many times I have heard people ask of others..." do you have the Holy Spirit?"...
My response would be..."No, but the Holy Spirit has ME"
Some feel that God is something we can possess. At least that is how it sounds when they speak.This teaches me to choose my words carefully so as not to give the listener the wrong understanding.
Animal |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 851
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 23, 2009 - 8:04 am: | |
Perhaps this is a tangent but it prompts the thought that as I look back upon my Catholic past as well as my 30 plus years as SDA.
Both had the quality of Authority , of God's actual presence, of authentication.
It was in that sense I at least thought I was were I belonged.
Now that all these past experiences are in question, shall we call that previous faith, "feelings" ?
Then if that is so, this too is the unknown factor.
Proving the Spirit, "Knowing" anything is based upon our understanding and it's subsequent belief as displayed in our faith.
What this says to me, since faith comes by hearing (understanding-recieving) then our faith (belief) is valid in that moment as far as sincerity goes. (right or wrong).
Because as we grow , learn and expand, it has to be assumed first and formost. We can only go by what we understand and believe (as truths) at each step.
As for feelings, a sense of this is where I belong.
I have "concluded" no one has it right, not even one. We are all partial in our understandings and extrapolated theories.
In fact, I am not even sure that the SDA or the Catholics are all that far off the real mark in the global sense.
How is it, I listen and see for myself that there are inconsistancies, yet I still feel like a fish out of water?
They say you can never go back.
It just seems to me , this open ended approach on the outside is no better.
Again, the suggestion and thought invaribly goes back to "Read your Bible Jim".
I submit, that in of itself is not enough.
Yes , it is part of it, but it is not enough.
I understand the wilderness effect of transition.
The problem is , I don't sense this is the path in all the places I have looked so far, or even in the maproom or scriptures, I don't even have a heading.
Now can anyone point to the "sensing"?
Or is that too, just an illusion?
Jim |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 7066
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 23, 2009 - 8:53 am: | |
Jim, this is just a thought of mine. When you were a Catholic, then an Adventist, maybe that is where God wanted you at the time to teach you what ever it was He wanted to teach you. That could be how to recognize abberant beliefs or a host of other things. Ask God about it. Ask Him to show you what He wanted you to learn. Listen carefully. He will let you know.
Diana L |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10037
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 23, 2009 - 3:04 pm: | |
Jim, first of all, "faith comes by hearing" has a context. Romans 10:17 says, "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of Christ." The phrase "faith comes by hearing" has a specific meaning. It doesn't mean, "Whatever you hear, that's what you put your faith in, so your faith is valid."
The passage specifically means true faith—the faith that is a gift from God and does not generate from our own eagerness to feel secure—comes from the word of Christ. True faith only comes from one source: absolute truth: the word of God given to mankind by His Spirit as He impressed His spokespeople over a period of 1,400 years.
Moreover, it is not Scriptures themselves which give us faith or which give us eternal life. It is only a Person, Jesus Christ, who gives us security, belonging, peace, and salvation. As long as we look for belonging, a sense of "fitting", an internal "knowing" that we have found the right church—even as long as we keep reading Scripture hoping to find peace there—we will be disappointed.
Jim, I'll go out on a limb here. I think what's happening to you is that you desperately want a sense of reassurance and comfort. The fact that you compare religions and denominations with each other, hoping to find the best theology and forms of worship, means that you're looking for the wrong thing. God is not in denominations. God IS, and He dwells in a sanctuary not made by human hands.
Scripture exists to reveal the truth about God, not the truth about doctrine. (The truth about doctrine flows out of meeting God personally and allowing Him to teach us His word.) We will never actually experience God, however, if we retain our own right to have our logic be the final analysis. Jim, you actually have to submit your mind to the Lord Jesus. Literally. You have to give up to Him your right to analyze and critique what He says in His word and to rationalize the choices you make.
It will feel like jumping off a cliff. Trusting Jesus always does. But ultimately He asks each of us to trust Him enough to surrender our plans and feelings and control of our lives to Him. We have to trust that He IS, and He always tells the truth and is faithful to His own promises. We have to give up our "what if's" and believe the words He says in Scripture. We have to give up our logical analysis of God and instead submit ourselves to what He says about Himself. We have to ask Him to reveal Himself to us, to make us willing to be submitted, to make us willing to be alone in the world if that's what it means to meet Jesus.
It's not a magical summation of facts that equals truth. It is Jesus. Only Jesus. And He persistently asks us to give up clinging to and grasping for the things that actually stand between us and Him. The rich young ruler who asked Jesus what he had to do to inherit eternal life said, when Jesus told him to keep the commandments of God, that he had done them all his life.
Jesus then exposed the truth: keeping the commandments does nothing to save a person. That rich young ruler had to give up what he most loved—what gave him his feeling of greatest security—and follow Jesus without his familiar "security blanket".
I think, Jim, that you are living in your own analysis to the exclusion of trusting the unseen God of the Universe. Your own analysis will never reveal reality and truth. Only surrender to TRUTH in the person of Jesus, trusting the Unseen One to be real and faithful and present, will yield peace.
With prayer for you, Jim,
Colleen |
Skeeter
Registered user
Username: Skeeter
Post Number: 44
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 23, 2009 - 4:44 pm: | |
Colleen,
I want to thank you :-)
I know that letter was meant for JIm..
But it struck home with me also. I don't know how many times over the years I made excuses for the SDA church.. saying to others and to myself that even though the SDA church is not "perfect" I truly thought it was the one church that followed the Bible the closest BECAUSE they (I thought) kept the Ten Commandments (including the 4th) and I had always said that if I ever found a church that had MORE TRUTH than the SDA church I would go to that church. I never felt comfortable about EGW ,, I thought she MIGHT be a "Prophet" but every time I would bring up something she said that was wrong... or seemed just plain CRUEL I was told "she never claimed to be a prophet" that she claimed to be Gods "MESSENGER" Well, she DID claim to be a prophet! She didnt come out and say "I am a Prophet of God". She did it more subtily (like Satan does) she said some call her a Prophet and she never claimed that title for herself, (she didnt deny she was though) that HER work encompassed much MORE than the word Prophet implied. Since I had married into a "Christian" SDA family at 17 years old and had really no religious training (though I had WONDERFUL parent's who loved me and taught me right from wrong, it was never a Religious thing) before that except to go occasionally with a friend to one church or another once in a while through Grade and High School... My MIL took great pleasure in teaching her new DIL all about the "truths" of Adventism,, from keeping The Ten Commantments to EGW's Health Message,and all the "rules" about what we should and should not do on Sabbath, and I soaked it all up.. because I wanted to please God, and I am sure part of it was also that I wanted to please my new Family. I wanted to "fit in". I have so many regrets about raising my children as SDA... yes they got to be in Pathfinders, do the bike a thon thing and go to Camp Wawona in the summer,, but I did not encourage them at all to join in any sports (would conflict with Sabbath) or anything else that might "profane" the Sabbath... Now I see my Grandchildren playing in sports and greatly excelling at it.. still managing to be straight A students AND going to church, and it makes me so sad that I did not have the joy (for myself or them either ) of letting my own children do those things. It has just been about the past 2 years (almost)that I started really studying and finding out the TRUTH about what heresy they teach. Before I accepted what I HEARD because I felt THEY were the experts on the Bible and so who was I to question THEM. ?
Regardless... your statement that "you desperately want a sense of reassurance and comfort. The fact that you compare religions and denominations with each other, hoping to find the best theology and forms of worship, means that you're looking for the wrong thing. God is not in denominations. God IS, and He dwells in a sanctuary not made by human hands.
Scripture exists to reveal the truth about God, not the truth about doctrine. "
That really struck at my heart. I WAS looking for reassurance and comfort,, and a sense of belonging. Add to that the fact that my MIL who I love dearly has always been THE head of the family in Spiritual matters.... or so it seemed to me.. my oldest son who joined a (Gasp) SUNDAY keeping Church.... told me a while back that when he was a child he used to think Grandma S------ was right up there with Jesus Christ. Now she is also dissappointed in me.. because she knows I no longer believe in the church and NONE of her 5 children attend ANY church.. though they are all good people and have Christian beliefs.. I don't think any of them will attend another church as long as she is living,, in part I am sure so as not to dissappoint her.It is as though they feel (and maybe rightly so) that she would rather they not go at all than to be lost by going to any other church. I was the last one in the family to remain a SDA along with my MIL and now I am sure she feels we are all in danger of being lost.
I dont want to dissappoint my MIL,, BUT it is MORE important that I not dissappoint my GOD !
So.. now I attend church with my son, DIL and Grandchildren occasionally, but I am afraid now to become a member of any church. I was deceived for so many years by what I was so sure was truth,, and it hurt deeply (still does) to realize we were lied to all those years.. I don't EVER want to go through that again. At the same time I know we are not to forsake the assembling of ouselves together...sometimes I feel closest to God when I just go down by the beach, sit in the car listening to the ocean and reading or walking the beach listening to tapes I have downloaded from Mark Martins site and the FAF site. But it is kinda lonely sometimes,,, feeling like I don't really have a church family anymore.
Francie |
Jim02
Registered user
Username: Jim02
Post Number: 852
Registered: 5-2007
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 7:00 pm: | |
Francie, You and I have similar thoughts on some of the aftermath.
Colleen,
You have brought up a wide spectrum of very deep topics and I am trying to absorb it.
Serveral of the things you expressed appears to me to have become known to you intuitively yet somehow learned as well.
You are trying to teach me something and as you may have already guessed, I often cannot see the forest for the trees.
I present partial views of my thoughts (as do we all), I come from circumstances that form the whole package and when there is damage, not only are we attempting to learn , we are also attempting to mitigate the damages already done.
Part of the things about my approach you commented on is the "analysis" habit I have.
I too am painfully aware of that.
My sister has been on me about that too. 
You said I wanted reassurance and comfort about my (religon and perhaps life in general).
It kind of goes like this.
God is capable of keeping our minds in perfect peace. Yet , I have not found that peace for long periods at a time. Usually circumstances and distractions as you mentioned, always something.
So I try to form neat modules of beliefs in my mind , things that serve as anchor points, and in that process, it becomes a form of control and then I see, having figured it out, I can hold onto a thought and make it my security blanket.
I have even worried , that as I age and my mind slows down, if I don't find peace soon, I will not be sharp enough to retain all the point counter point secure thoughts of doctrinal beliefs to maintain peace of mind.
It occurs to me, I am manufacturing my own peace of mind. What an utter waste of effort!
It is simpler than that, it has to be.
And so, I see that you are trying to show me something. Don't give up on me. I am trying to hear, trying to grasp, and even that approach may be a mistake.
My sister said tonight, just cling to the cross and stop figuring anything out.
Jim |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 7088
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 7:20 pm: | |
Jim, Your sister is right. Just cling to the cross and Jesus and stop figuring anything out.
I continue to pray for you.
Diana L |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 10055
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, June 24, 2009 - 9:42 pm: | |
I understand, Jim. And I agree with your sister. I'm totally not giving up on you! God is holding you.
Colleen |
Jrt
Registered user
Username: Jrt
Post Number: 659
Registered: 10-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, June 25, 2009 - 3:25 pm: | |
Jim,
I have and will continue to keep you in prayer. It is a painful process, indeed. Jesus is worth the risk of believing and trusting once again ...
Keri |
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