| Author |
Message |
Steve (Steve)
| | Posted on Thursday, May 08, 2003 - 10:06 pm: |     |
Hi Brad,
At least I can handle the one passage from Revelation better than I can understand the book of Daniel.
As you stated in an earlier posting, John stated that there are already many antichrists (I John.)
I believe that both are true and literal. There are many antichrists AND there will be THE Antichrist in the time of the end. We meet antichrists every day. Some who claim that Jesus never came in the flesh, but was only a spiritual ideal. Some say that Jesus was not who He said He is, God. Some deny His deity and claim that He was just a good man. Others say that He was a great teacher. Some say that He's the great Physician. Some (Masons) think of God as the great architect and Jesus as one of His MANY sons.
All these, and more, are antichrists. Revelation 13 tells us that there will also be The Antichrist, who is to come. I'm not sure that it's referring to a country, an organization, an apostate church, or a very powerful individual. I now lean toward the belief that The Antichrist will actually be an individual.
Regarding the "out of the earth" or "out from the sea" are part of what I threw away with Adventism. (I guess I threw much of the bathwater out looking for the baby [ref: Cora's story, see Stories.])
All I know is that there will be an Antichrist who will forbid buying or selling unless one has the mark of the beast. It's not Sunday. I have no idea whether it'll be something technological, something spiritual, something physical, or who knows what.
All I know is that if I'm in Christ, it isn't going to affect me. It may affect me if I'm not allowed to eat or drink because I don't have the mark. But what's this minor present affliction compared to that eternal weight of glory?
Steve |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 2:35 pm: | |
Steve, I agree with you. I also lean toward the idea that the antichrist will be an individual. Exactly what the symbolism of "out of the earth" and "out of the sea" mean, I don't think we know yet.
Likewise the mark of the beast isn't known yet, either. What we can know is that it's related to giving one's loyalty to anything other than Christ, and it will affect us economically and/or physically. Satan can't mark a person who is safe in him.
Praise God for absolute security!
Colleen |
Brad_2 (Brad_2)
| | Posted on Friday, May 09, 2003 - 3:58 pm: | |
Out of the earth is worded ìupî out of the earth. This maybe up out of the earthly and into a spiritual world-wide beast like the first one was literal and local during the Church Age.
In the popular view there is the rapture of the wheat before a great tribulation and 1000 years in heaven while the tares get left behind. Jesus said to harvest them together then separated them.
Then after the 1000 years there must be another rapture to get those who want to be with Christ after the so called 144000 Jewish evangelist preach the gospel to those who missed the rapture.
Some of the problems I had with believing the popular view of the antichrist or beast is that there is a second beast. And all this is suppose to happen within the seven years in Daniel9:27 that refers to the Messiah.
Do any former Adventistís believe that the SDAís may have the truth on this one? I would like to know. |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 11:22 am: | |
Brad, Sorry I got lost when I tried to do a blue letter search on the phrase "out of the earth". What are you alluding to?
Just thought I would let everyone know that Jack Van Impe has been under a lot of attack from the author of a new book called "The Rapture Trap" and Dr. Van Impe has now done a two-hour video tape as a refute to this man that relates ALL of the scriptural references that PROVE the pre-tribulation rapture theory. Who but the devil would want us to live in fear of being persecuted and hunted down like wild animals during the final tribulation week mentioned in Revelations? This man had to be letting Satan influence him when writing this book because the rapture is a fact straight from the mouth of God.
www.jackvanimpe.com is a wonderful site to visit for all kinds of studies concerning the books of Daniel and Revelation, and I make no apologies for supporting him as he teaches the truth from God's word. He may not have ALL the facts on ALL the issues, but he is a tremendous Bible scholar and man of God. It is my belief that much of the attack has come about as a result of "multiple implications" of scripture concerning past, present, and future events that people have not taken time to consider such as EGW did when she concluded that the rest of the Christian world was in error when teaching about the destroyed temple as being a "future" event when it had already happened in A.D. 70. History does repeat itself, we have the facts that prove this, so, why should Bible history be any different?
One last thing to think on, God told Daniel to "seal the book till the end" and Revelations says "he who has an ear, hear what the Spirit says to the churches". Having said that, it is confirmation to a spiritually minded child of God that we are in the "endtimes" since we now see that the book of Daniel and the book of Revelation are both basically "one-in-the-same" with only the symbolism being slightly different.
I have enjoyed reading your book Brad, it has shown me things from a different perspective, but I still take the word of God to be very literal in most of the things I have studied. I believe too that there is a literal "eternal hell" that the lost and wicked dead will go to, but knowing that God is just, he will mete out punishment accordingly in hell just as he will do when it comes to heavenly rewards. I accept it all by faith and can't help it if someone wants to fight against me on various issues.
Brad, you can be sure that as long as we are all trying to do right by giving a reason for our hope, we will find opposition. I will end with this verse that puts all this into its proper perspective:
1Pe 2:19 For this [is] thankworthy, if a man for conscience toward God endure grief, suffering wrongfully.
This verse should speak to all of us and comfort us. God is truly showing us all that if he has touched our conscious and led us to write out our thoughts for others, we will have God's thankfulness for it and will receive a reward. It also ends with saying that "we suffer WRONGFULLY" for it, doesn't it?
Enduring afflictions for the love of Christ, let's strive to the prize set before us, amen.
Janice |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 12:27 pm: | |
Brad, I sent you an email and it was returned. Is your address right? Send me a test email at JaniceLumpkin@msn.com so that I can get it back into my address log, please. I thought I used the address that you just posted but it must have been wrong. I am good at keying in the wrong letter. I had a question for you but didn't want to post it because it fell into the category of gossip because I wanted to ask about a certain email correspondent that had sent you mail in the past.
Anyway, I would appreciate it if you could mail me.
Janice |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 12:41 pm: | |
I thought I would mention too that a lot of study has been made concerning this 1000 year thing. There is a big difference between the "rapture of the church" and the "second coming of Christ." The rapture will "snatch away" the bride of Christ for the wedding supper and then the tribulation period will begin and during that time a literal number of 144,000, 12,000 each from the twelve tribes of Israel (do the Math) and these men will go out into all of Israel during the time of Jacob's trouble (Jacob translates into Israel) and will preach the gospel to those who have NEVER heard the gospel (not those who rejected Christ and got left behind)and these will be the ones that will be persecuted for their newfound faith and killed during that time. The Bible clearly teaches that when Christ returns to set up his kingdom that he will come "bringing his saints with him" and will set on the throne of David and rule with a rod of iron during the 1000 year reign of Christ on earth when the lion lies down with the lamb and eats hay instead of flesh. Satan will have one last chance to tempt God's people and will be destroyed in the final battle of Armageddon. The earth will then go through a cleansing fire and then the heavenly sanctuary will come down to earth instead of hovering over it and we will all begin our eternal reign with Christ.
I will end by asking this question: If there is no such place as eternal damnaton and outer darkness outside the presence of God, then why does the Bible mention in the very last chapter of Revelation that there are liars, thieves, adulters, and etc. outside the gate?
Janice |
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 7:14 pm: | |
Here's an interesting site I happened upon regarding the last days, the beast et-cetera:
http://hammer.prohosting.com/~nealking/
What are your thoughts into this guys ideas...anyone?
Denise Gilmore, watching the world |
Steve (Steve)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 8:10 pm: | |
Brad,
You finished your last post with a question regarding whether the SDA church may have the truth on what you're referring to regarding the beasts, etc.
I do not believe the SDA church has any truth whatsoever. PERIOD.
Sure, you may read in their 27 fundamentals about the Trinity. You may read about being saved by grace, not works. You may read about believing in scripture for the foundation of all doctrine.
You can read much that appears as "truth" from official SDA sources.
But it's not truth.
If I open a can of tuna and it is tainted with salmonella, the entire can is tainted. I have to throw the entire can of tuna away and clean up well after so no one in my household will become sick. (This 'aint a "One bad apple doesn't spoil the whole bunch" kind of problem.)
The ONLY reason Adventism has doctrines that MAY sound absolutely correct to human ears is because of the words that are used.
I believe in the Trinity as understood by the scriptures, Augustine, Gregory Thaumaturgis and other great men and women of God.
The only reason the SDA church even teaches the trinity is because of their increasing acceptance by mainstream orthodox Christian churches since the 1950's. They did not become Trinitarian until then.
I reject all SDA teaching, even those teachings on which they seem to be in alignment with orthodox doctrines.
I will accept orthodoxy from orthodox sources, not from heterodox or heretical sources.
Sorry, Brad. Let's find another source for these speculations than the one organization that this site exists to expose.
Talk you you soon,
Steve |
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 8:43 pm: | |
Steve, Brad and everyone else,
I posted a site above that is NOT sda...What do you think about it?
Be sure too, to check out the links to the Official UN Documents. Interesting stuff.
Course I'm looking everywhere on the internet anymore, trying to put together things that are already in my head. And the rough part about that is I have no bloody clue why certain things are in my head! Yipes....that's frightening! Think I'm losing it?????? 
Denise Gilmore sometimes considered a nut and sometimes this could apply me thinks....hehe
Hi Colleen and Richard! I found my way back for a spell.....(((((hugs)))))) to your entire household. |
Steve (Steve)
| | Posted on Saturday, May 10, 2003 - 11:32 pm: | |
Hi Denise,
Yes, I have checked out the website. A little looking around profited me the following.
The author of the website is promoting civil disobedience and using the Bible to encourage Christians to break the law of the land.
In regards to the mark of the beast he says:
"The Bible tells us that those who worship the beast -- and his image WILL receive the "mark of the beast. No one will be forced to receive the mark; those who receive it will do so willingly. This is not unlike "voluntary" tax-filing and reporting."
In other words, the website author is stating that paying taxes is voluntary. He is not a very informed individual.
He then goes on to suggest that so-called Christians who pay taxes to a government are showing their allegiance to the State over and above God. He says:
"The answer is that those who WILLINGLY and VOLUNTARIALLY pay tribute to Caesar (the state), in doing so, show their true allegiance by their actions."
I can guarantee you, WE DO NOT HAVE A CHOICE in paying our taxes. Ask anyone who has avoided paying taxes. (I've received Red Ink letters from the IRS!)
He then again uses the Bible in a perverted way to suggest that God "honors" the disobedience, lying, etc. He provides the following 4 examples:
"[1] Midwives/Moses' mother disobey king (civil authority)"
He then goes on to quote Exodus 1:15-23. Did they disobey the government? Of course not. Moses went into the Nile along with the rest of the males. (Isn't Jewish logic great?!)
_______________________________________________
He says:
"[2] Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego disobey the king (civil authority)"
He then quotes Daniel 3:12-14. The passage is NOT about disobeying civil authority. It is SPECIFICALLY about blatant worship. God honors their worship of Him, not their disobedience to the government.
_________________________________________________
He says:
"[3] Rahab lies to civil authorities, God honours her deed"
He then quotes Joshua 2:3-4. God did not honor her deed of lying to civil authorities. Read Hebrews chapter 11. God honors her because she hid the spies.
________________________________________________
He says:
"[4] Apostles disobey civil authorities"
and quotes Acts 5:27-29. The Apostles were sharing salvation through Jesus' death and resurrection to others.
In each of the four examples he provides on this part of one page, he is focusing on the wrong point. Sure, there was lying and disobedience. But these things are not what God honors. God honors obedience to Him. It is not our disobedience to worldly authorities that counts for anything.
___________________________________________
As I continued looking through this page, I found a reference to the author, in regards to a court appearance that he had made in a High Court appeal on June 22, 2000.
He has this to say about himself:
"HIGH COURT APPEAL on 22 JUNE 2000
I believe that while I was in the HIGH COURT that I was sober and that I was NOT on drugs. To the best of my recollection and that of my 2 friends in the court I believe that the following was said by one of the 2 judges during my appearance ."
Hmmmmm. I've been around too many drunks and drug users to know that this is not an honest statement.
________________________________________________
I looked around on the website, but found nothing to inspire me in greater love or dedication to Jesus. I found plenty of claims as to when the last 7 years started of earths history began: He says:
"On the 6th to the 9th September 2000 Leaders from 160 + nations (I would call that "many" wouldn't you?) attended the Millennium Assembly and Summit to ratify the Charter for Global Democracy. "But they didn't tell us about the Earth Charter and the Rome Statute!"."
Sure, it's fascinating. Sure it COULD be tied in to the book of Revelation. But it has to be speculation. The prophecy of Revelation is for those going through the events or for those after the events to look back and realize what has just happened.
Date setting, name calling, disparaging Christians who pay taxes, etc. He even has a web page called Citizens Against Police.
I've had a few cops in my family. I'm not against the police. How could one be a "citizen" against police and yet claim NOT to be a citizen of the society in which one lives? The logic he uses backfires on himself when following to its conclusion.
Too much babble and no Jesus. Focus on us and what we do, and no focus on Jesus and what He has already accomplished for us.
So, I guess when I mentioned above that I don't accept anything from Adventism, I must amend that.
I do not accept as truth so-called expositions of the scriptures from a source that does not first and foremost preach Christ and Him crucified to bring sinners into the kingdom. Some sources may have good information without Jesus, but this guy seems to have neither.
I didn't get to the links to the Official UN Documents. Sorry, I guess I couldn't stomach it. My guts are weak, but my spirit is strong!
Steve |
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 6:35 am: | |
So Steve,
You noticed all that too eh? Yeah, me too and more. But it is a fascinating read, you must admit. I'm wondering how many are listening to him.
Although I do agree about the flouridization (sp) in our water. Also that there have been alot of wrong doing within our own governmental system.
Not sure I'd completely discount everything he has to say as some of it is just as pertinent as some other sites I've read.
I'm very amazed when I type into google the word "apocalypse" just how many sites come up! Sheesh, is it any wonder there is so much confusion in this world?
By the way, I do happen to agree with the idea that we will be here for the tribulation. At least that's how I believe so far.
I have read so many sites like this, all of them with different views and ideas......absolutely amazing, yet I still find myself searching them out. This happens to interest me, especially these days.
Now at least you can see and so can others that it's not just SDAs with some stuff that is pretty hard to believe, infact, some of it impossible.
Yet, in all of these, there is a bit of truth. At least that's my opinion. But then what's my opinion?
I don't trust our government nor the UN. Too many laws being taken away...little by little. Course that's been going on for several years now from what I've witnessed.
The UN documents were very interesting to read as far as I'm concerned. However, we all have our different areas of interest that seem to attract us and those are the areas that we'll have a tendency to look up first.
Thank you for at least taking a good read of that site and giving me your opinion. Most folks wouldn't have even given it but maybe 2-3 minutes. This shows me that you really did do some reading and I value your opinions into this. This is one reason why I posted it, was to get some feedback.
Thank you Steve and God Bless you!
your sister in Christ Jesus of Nazareth.
Denise Gilmore |
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 6:39 am: | |
Oh, by the way Steve,
Did you notice the government experiments regarding the chemicals on our service men and women for around 50 years? What is posted there, is truth about that stuff from what I hear.
Kinda makes ya wonder, no? I'll look more into it, of course.....whadya expect? 
Peace to your household,
Denise |
Brad_2 (Brad_2)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 8:40 am: | |
5{we can skip the SDA's and go to Martin Luther and all the rest before the 1830's who believed at the time that RCC was the beast. They must have though at the time that Daniel's 9:27 referred to the Messiah? in the first half of the scripture. |
Steve (Steve)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 9:20 pm: | |
Hi Denise,
Well, I'm pro-military, so I'm probably a bit biased. I'm sure that at times there have been expirements with various chemicals over the years. I've had many family members in the military and in various wars.
Lost a grandfather on the USS Arizona in Pearl Harbor. Two uncles survived Vietman. (I'm having trouble with the word "uncle.") One of my uncles was severely messed up for years after the war. My first stepfather fought in Korea. Another one of my grandfathers fought in WWII. I have a nephew in the Air Force that just returned from a one year tour of duty in South Korea (may be heating up over there.)
I've never had a relative that has been expiremented on with various chemicals. I'm sure there have been some, and there were plenty of guys hurt and killed by agent orange.
*************************
The website author that you're referring to says that I have the mark of the beast because I pay taxes to the IRS (U.S. version of the I.R.D. in New Zealand.)
Having been a member of a religious group that now says that I have the mark of the beast, I guess that I don't find anything uplifting on that guys website.
As you say, there are some things that interest each of us more than other things. For me, it's now the gospel. Anyone who is using Jesus to preach something other than Good News is an antichrist.
We've all had the bad news preached to us all our lives. The Good News is so good! He is Living Water. I am thirsty. Websites like his just make me thirstier!
Peace to your household too!
Steve |
Steve (Steve)
| | Posted on Sunday, May 11, 2003 - 9:30 pm: | |
Hi Brad,
I'd be interested to see what you have in regards to Martin Luther stating that the RCC is the beast.
Personally, I have a hard time believing that the office of the Pope has ever forced me to worship it. I've always been able to buy (when I had the money) and sell with no problems from the RCC.
I look forward to what Luther experienced. I may do a little reading up on it myself. I just found my volumes of Luthers Sermons in storage today. It may take a while as they're here but still in a box with other stuff.
Steve |
Brad_2 (Brad_2)
| | Posted on Monday, May 12, 2003 - 2:54 pm: | |
Steve, It must have been back in memory of my mind something that the SDA's said. But I think it was referring to Martin Luther saying that the Pope was the antichrist not the beast. A beast in is a nation. |
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