Post Number: 300
|Posted on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 3:23 pm: || |
I have to look back and say that growing up as SDA there was the implicit understanding that in the Bible it was explicitly recorded we not to buy or sell things on Saturday. Why because that would be sinning.
Yet when I do even a quick Google or search there is no such statement or moratorium. It is possible, when one jumps from one text to another and stretches reason out enough to write a tome you can rationalize to that conclusion through exegesis.
But if that is the case, then along the way one would have to also agree observance of the Jewish Sabbath requires one, obey the command in Ex 16:29-30 "Remain every man in his place; let no man go out of his place on the seventh day. So the people rested on the seventh day."
Other than the belief for SDAs--which I have to assume comes from EGW--that if you bought gas, or food, or ANYTHING on Saturday you were profaning the Jewish Sabbath.
Perhaps this is why we see the "liberal" or rebellious SDAs rationalizing why they can go eat at Soup Plantation after church to eat vegetables (swapping one indulgence [i.e., Sabbath breaking] for penance [i.e., eating vegetables/vegetarianism])?
From my understanding of Scripture there is no such injunction. Perhaps I did miss the plain verse. If not, then from what writings does this specific teaching find its origins and receive power?
(Message edited by wiredog on February 03, 2013)
Post Number: 2950
|Posted on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 7:10 pm: || |
(And for any SDAs who might be lurking, the Sabbath was the sign/seal of the old covenant between God and Israel - Exodus 31:13. And in the new covenant, believers are sealed with the Holy Spirit Who is the guarantee of their inheritance when they believe on Jesus - Ephesians 1:13-14.)
Post Number: 910
|Posted on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 8:16 pm: || |
Post Number: 301
|Posted on Sunday, February 03, 2013 - 8:54 pm: || |
Asurprise, the "Seventh-Day" Adventist injunction against buying or selling on the Jewish Sabbath is one that we used to teach and even condemn others. We should have expected much more clarity and Scripture than one misapplied text upon which we built that doctrine given the fervor we exercised it. Perhaps Neh 10:31 in isolation (viz., proof-texting) we can claim that is so, however when you read that text it was the surrounding people of the land coming to the Israelites seeking to do business and two the verse is but one in the entire chapter from which we get the context.
I seriously doubt and I don't recall as a "Seventh-Day" Adventist being taught in church, Sabbath School, Academy or University to--
(i) Verse 29 (NASB),"keep and to observe all the commandments of God our Lord, and His ordinances and His statutes; (As SDAs we insisted there were differences between "commandments", "ordinances" & "statutes" cf. Col 2:13-17). As Christians we know there were actually 613 Mitzvot to which this referred.
(ii) Verse 31, "and we will forego the crops the seventh year and the exaction of every debt." (That I'd like to have seen as it too was just as much a commandment as the injunction against buying and selling on the Jewish Sabbath)
(iii) and as you pointed out, the entire Chapter of Neh 10 is speaking about the Israelites and the whole Jewish System of worship. There isn’t even a cross reference to a verse admonishing Gentile Christians to observe this fulfilled law.
Pretty disturbing to see that again even the notion that we are somehow more Biblical because we refused to buy or sell on the Jewish Sabbath was built on what was NOT in Scripture.
Post Number: 1974
|Posted on Monday, February 04, 2013 - 3:44 am: || |
Wiredog, you make a number of good points about the other commands, but I'm not sure they change the one about not buying or selling. Shouldn't we apply this just as much to Hobby Lobby and Chick-a-fil?
Post Number: 301
|Posted on Monday, February 04, 2013 - 3:56 am: || |
I think that's the verse that is most often used. In the commentary below, there's a version that uses the term business, as in not doing your own business on the Sabbath, but none of the versions at the top of the page say business. But that's what I'm most familiar with as the source of the no buying or selling rule.
Post Number: 298
|Posted on Monday, February 04, 2013 - 11:11 am: || |
There is nothing in the Bible that says we can't buy something. Yet going shopping was considered "work" for a long time by society. Now shopping isn't work most of the time, it's entertainment.
Post Number: 289
|Posted on Monday, February 04, 2013 - 1:54 pm: || |
With the exception of attending funerals the last SDA sermon i sat through (eight years ago, or so) was the preacher admonishing the sleeping in the pews SDA 's to stop going to Starbucks before church and out to lunch after church because that's is a violation of keeping Sabbath holy and resting on the Sabbath.
Post Number: 2951
|Posted on Monday, February 04, 2013 - 1:57 pm: || |
Wiredog; the Gentiles weren't even given the law (Romans 2:14 - "...when Gentiles, who do not have the law...").
The law given in the Old Testament was given only to Israel, the literal descendants of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. (Deuteronomy 5:2-3 [Moses speaking to Israel] - "The Lord our God made a covenant with us in Horeb. Not with our fathers did the Lord make this covenant, but with us, who are all of us here alive today.")
And as you know, that covenant was the law. (Deuteronomy 4:13 [Moses speaking to Israel] - "And He declared to you His covenant, which He commanded you to perform, that is, the Ten Commandments, and He wrote them on two tablets of stone.")
God had a purpose in calling Israel out from the nations and giving them the law, the scriptures, etc. Through them, the Messiah would come, and through Him, salvation to the world!
Butterfly; Shopping is only entertainment for me for a little while. After awhile it becomes work!
Post Number: 302
|Posted on Monday, February 04, 2013 - 8:37 pm: || |
Ric_b If I understand you correctly I would agree it should also apply to Chic-fil-A and Hobby Lobby to be consistent . . . were they under requirement to keep Mosaic Law as Gentiles.
Katarain. I had to cheat a little and see Canright's commentary on the proof text. it goes along with Asurprises and NCT position that those commands were given to the Jews (i.e., House of Jacob [v1]) and their nation (v2).
The reason I asked is, I'm working on converting the ORIGINAL, "From Sabbath to Sunday" by Paul Cotton written in 1933 into Kindle, Nook & iBook formats. In it he does a very thorough job detailing the historical record and progression of how Sunday moved into prominence over the Jewish Sabbath. He does so from the Gentile Christian, Jewish Christian, and non-Jewish/Christian perspective.
In the chapter on Jewish Christians he address their accretions regarding Sabbath Observance law. It is very reminiscent of "Seventh-Day" Adventism. In order not to break the essence of the law it was plastered over with so many more laws that if those were kept it would help prevent the breaking of the essence of the law. Yet there were several loopholes they rationalized into them so one could still be a good Jew and "mess up a bit". This one for instance not to buy or sell on Saturday (for us fAdventists) the Bible does not teach it with the force we would have other believe.
BTW I don't have direct citation but I have to believe that Jews did buy and sell on the Jewish Sabbath, did they not have merchants on the temple grounds to sell animal's for the sacrifice?
Post Number: 45
|Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2013 - 8:54 am: || |
I was taught that it was wrong to buy on the Sabbath because it would be breaking the admonition against having others do work.
"in it [the Sabbath] you shall not do any work, you, or your son, or your daughter, your manservant, or your maidservant, or your cattle, or the sojourner who is within your gates" Exodus 20:10b
As an example, if you're buying groceries, you're causing the check-out clerk (your servant) to work on Sabbath, which is forbidden in the fourth commandment.
Perhaps that isn't orthodox SDA teaching, but in my little part of the world, that's how it was viewed.
Post Number: 915
|Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2013 - 10:30 am: || |
"..in my little part of the world.." this is what I was also taught!
Furthermore, since 'egw' is a part of my 'Family Tree',
we believed this was 'her' revelation from GOD!
You just 'Don't' argue about it~!
Are we ever going to be able to Thank 'Our' FATHER in Heaven, enough, for opening our
blind eyes, to the "Gift" of HIS SON, JESUS CHRIST? We are now under 'Grace', not 'law'.
I believe it will be my Praise for eternity!
~Praising HIM now!~
Post Number: 2953
|Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2013 - 12:45 pm: || |
Have you noticed how false religions make for hypocrisy? They say: "you can do this or that, but don't cross THIS line!"
For example, I've heard of Muslims who were away from their wives for a time - say a week; being allowed to "marry" another lady for that week (they're allowed more than one wife), and then they "divorce" that lady at the end of the week. I guess they think they have a pretty stupid "god" who won't notice as long as they're "married."
Adventists would say to this in horror; "oh, we'd NEVER do such a thing!" but don't they? As the Sabbath ends, they know exactly what time sundown is and they studiously try to keep their minds from wandering onto secular subjects until 1 minute after sundown. They just don't get it.
The law was given to INCREASE sin - Romans 5:20. The Ten Commandments are the ministry of death! (2nd Corinthians 3:7 - "...the ministry of death, carved in letters on stone..."
Christians are sealed with the Holy Spirit Who is the guarantee of their inheritance - Ephesians 1:13-14. We are HIS workmanship, not ours - Ephesians 2:8-10 - and it's not a result of works (not even partly), or it wouldn't be a FREE GIFT! We're not even saved by the work of the Holy Spirit in our lives - salvation is instantaneous, the moment a person believes on Christ. Adventists parrot: "but works naturally follow." That's true, but they don't know how true that is, because those works are the Holy Spirit's doing and not our own.
Wiredog, yes, I agree that man changed the Sabbath to Sunday and thereby tried to change God's law - but NOT in the way Adventists think. When Jesus died and rose, He became our Sabbath - Colossians 2:16-17, so it's not a day anymore.
Post Number: 14271
|Posted on Tuesday, February 05, 2013 - 5:13 pm: || |
I also was taught that buying and selling would make the "other person" work. Furthermore, I was taught that it would involve "doing my own pleasure," so that would also eliminate buying and selling.
Here are some biblical text prohibiting Sabbath buying and selling:
We will not give our daughters to the peoples of the land or take their daughters for our sons. And if the peoples of the land bring in goods or any grain on the Sabbath day to sell, we will not buy from them on the Sabbath or on a holy day. And we will forego the crops of the seventh year and the exaction of every debt.
(Nehemiah 10:30-31 ESV)
And one more:
In those days I saw in Judah people treading winepresses on the Sabbath, and bringing in heaps of grain and loading them on donkeys, and also wine, grapes, figs, and all kinds of loads, which they brought into Jerusalem on the Sabbath day. And I warned them on the day when they sold food. Tyrians also, who lived in the city, brought in fish and all kinds of goods and sold them on the Sabbath to the people of Judah, in Jerusalem itself! Then I confronted the nobles of Judah and said to them, “What is this evil thing that you are doing, profaning the Sabbath day? Did not your fathers act in this way, and did not our God bring all this disaster on us and on this city? Now you are bringing more wrath on Israel by profaning the Sabbath.”
(Nehemiah 13:15-18 ESV)
Post Number: 321
|Posted on Thursday, February 14, 2013 - 5:38 am: || |
Well...if anyone had to pay my grocery bill with 2 sons they would know shopping on the sabbath is not doing my own pleasure....