| Author |
Message |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 9:47 am: |     |
Just for clarification sake, I want to say that I was not necessarily speaking of a person's biblical knowledge, I am more speaking of their approach to analyzing a passage. I am very interested in how the Spirit speaks to others in the group about the scripture we are studying. Its frustrating when all you get is a recitation of facts. For example, when speaking about the building of Solomon's Temple, I was looking for input from others about why that account may have been included in the historical record and what if any application that has to us today, rather than a technical discussion about how they got the logs up the river--maybe its a male thing..
I by no means thinkg that I have a corner (even a small one) on spiritual understanding. I am there to get that spiritual and personal support that Colleen was speaking of. I want to hear the spiritual perspective of those who have not walked the same road I have. That's what I am there for.
One other clarification that I would like to provide is that the quality and depth of the preaching ministry at the church I attend is some of the best I've seen. We have literally walked through several books of the Bible--something that generally never happened in Adventism. The insight that the Pastor's shared was absolutely awesome. I guess I was expecting that same depth in the group, and did not experience it.
Anyway, I just thought I needed to clarify. I appreciate the words of encouragement from each of you, and I will relook at why God may have placed me in the group that I am in. Thanks to all.
In His Grace
Doug |
Loneviking (Loneviking)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 4:37 am: | |
I think we understand what you are talking about Doug. For some reason, a lot of Christians just have never thought about things the way SDA's have. I've had the same experience that you and all of the others have had of frustration (sometimes) at their lack of knowledge, or their inability to question and dissect a passage. When I first joined my church, they thought I had been to preaching school to have learned as much about the Bible as I had!
I wonder though, at what God is up to salting so many congregations throughout America with ex-SDA's who are so well versed in Scripture? Could it be in preperation for the end time deception mentioned in Matthew that would be so persuasive as to deceive the elect if possible? Are we some sort of guardian put there to warn others when false teaching comes in? I really wonder if this isn't the reason for the 'shaking out' of SDA'ism and into mainstream Christianity of so many of us. What do you think? |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 7:09 am: | |
I don't know Loneviking. For all of our "knowledge," we sure were deceived weren't we? The Pharisees were also pretty well versed in the scripture, yet God did not choose them as his disciples. Personally, I believe I have been called into "mainstream Christianity" to be retaught rather than to teach. Maybe God has a bigger plan, but he surely doesn't need me to carry it out. Just my $.02 worth.
In His Grace
Doug |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 3:08 pm: | |
Doug, I have had the same reaction you expressed above. Richard and I have often commented that God took us out of Adventism and in his amazing wisdom placed us in a church where we could re-learn. These past three years have been astonishing. It's impossible to begin to explain how our understandings of things we thought we knew really well have completely changed. One of the biggest "miracles" is that the Bible increasingly makes sense as a whole unit. It is completely trustworthy, and I understand why Elizabeth Inrig repeatedly held up the Bible in her "Walk Through the Old Testament" class two years ago and said, "Everything you need to know about salvation and holy living is right in here."
Even then, I must admit, I was still slightly uncomfortable with that position. My Adventist upbringing taught me to see everything critically, and the Bible as God's word but not inerrant. Isn't it "schizy" how we were taught that we had to base EVERYTHING on the Bible, but we were simultaneously taught that it was not inerrant and that we had to "interpret" it for today, the way we did EGW's writings?
I have thought many times how grateful I am that God does redeem our pasts. For all my familiarity with Bible stories and passages, I was so unfamiliar with what the Bible REALLY said and how it linked together. I also was arrogant enough to believe that I knew the Bible really wellóbetter than most people "out there".
And now God is re-teaching me, and all those out-of-context stories and passages are saying new things about God that I didn't know they said before. And even though my familiarity with the Bible was tainted by faulty understanding, God is redeeming all that past study and reshaping it into truth.
So, I guess what I'm trying to say is this: those Adventists who did take Bible study "seriously" were, for the most part, not really well-versed in scripture because they read it inaccurately. I know my own "Bible knowledge" was so flawed I couldn't have had a very meaningful discussion with a non-Adventist until a very few years ago. I've become convinced that Bible knowledge is really no advantage if the knowledge is not enlightened by the Holy Spirit.
I am so grateful to God for placing us in a church where He can teach us the truth about his word, and where there are literally hundreds of Christ-followers who are also eager to learn and committed to growing in the Lord. What an amazing reality!
Colleen |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 5:44 pm: | |
Doug and Colleen,
You have both been a tremendous help to me. I believe God called us all out to do His work. Knowledge is a big part of it but Doug, God definately needs you to help further His kingdom!! You were redeemed by faith for good works! Don't underestimate yourself.
Sabra |
Loneviking (Loneviking)
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 02, 2002 - 7:37 pm: | |
Sure, we have a lot to relearn---but having relearned and refocused our beliefs, don't you think we are a little better qualified than most to say 'hey wait a minute, what that person is saying isn't right! I know it isn't right and that it leads to twisted theology and problem because we encountered something similar in the SDA church!'......and in this way, warn and counteract false doctrines moving into the church.
This is what I was referring to when I was wondering what God was doing salting other churches with ex-SDA's.
Yes, there is a lot to be relearned, but one thing all of us have experinced is how to be deceived----right? |
Violet (Violet)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 6:48 am: | |
Colleen you are right. it is only with the Holy Spirit can we ever understand the Bible and God's intent for our lives.
I am seeing that so many in my new church know very little about the Old Testament, and I feel without an understanding of how God works with His people (the Old Testiment) we cannot understand what He expects from us.
Remember it was suppose to be the tuter to show us how to love.
So many of us formers take simple things for granid. At the mock Sader last Friday night some of the women did not know what leaven was. This was something I thought every christian should already understand the concept of sin and leaven.
Basically when we bring the two background together we have a richer understanding for both. |
Lucias (Lucias)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 7:18 am: | |
Well I don't know how many of us here went to SDA schools growing up.
I did and, despite any doctrinal issues, there is no denying that a half hour or so every day of focused study of bible stories over the course of 8-12 years will put you at an advantage to those who very likely did not go to a Christian school.
This coupled with instruction at home may actually mean that some of us, for all intents and purposes, attended as Loneviking puts it "preaching school".
There is no denying the benefit of Christian education.
But that being said when I left, having been rather surprised at the shakiness of many of the "pillars of the faith" once I had studied into things I thought I was a good Bible scholar.
But Christianity is not a faith of scholarship. I'm not opposed to Bible study and/or theology but as I read scripture that is not the test. The test is "when I was hungry did you feed me" or "when I was thirsty did you give me water" ?
Christ says there will be many in that day who will say didn't we preach and convert and do all kinds of great things and he says away I never knew you. The reason is because they didn't actively practice love and forgiveness.
For a long time I viewed those around me in my new church home as not as enlightened in many regards. I did puzzle at the focus on relationship and human interaction instead of doctrine. But ultimately that is what Christ taught.
When I look back at Christs day it was the "wise bible students" who were engaged in doctrinal questions that didn't matter. Those who Christ sought were not necessarily the wisest either.
I have found a book very interesting called "12 Steps for a Recovering Pharisee". Its format is a rip on the various "12 step" programs but its point is well suited for those of us from an SDA background. |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 4:14 pm: | |
Good point, Lucias. I am so grateful that God deals gently but firmly and surely with our Adventist inheritance of arrogance. I do praise him for revealing himself to us!
Colleen |
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 03, 2002 - 6:43 pm: | |
Loneviking, what you said about salt in the church from our sda perspective is very true. It does make my head do a fast jerk when someone is taken in by something deceptive now, because I do see it right away. Or helping my friends resolve in further, deeper Bible study so they know how to stand on certain things, etc. We have lots to relearn, but we have lots to share. Most folks I met do not get the importance of the New Covenant even though a New Covenant believer. The awesomeness of that I get to share and helps them on their journey. |
Windmotion (Windmotion)
| | Posted on Thursday, April 04, 2002 - 7:45 pm: | |
Thank you Lucius, what you said made me stop and think. Some people (SDA's yes) study salvation like it's a chemistry formula. (Add equal parts grace and works, stir briskly until completely mixed, then let sit until precisely 1844 when you add investigation)
If salvation was to be this exact science, why wouldn't Jesus have picked some smarter disciples? Why are so many books on Bible doctrines so much longer and harder to understand than the Bible itself? (yes I went to a Christian Bible College but not to be a preacher)
I have to believe the Bible contains all one needs to know. When Paul says to love is to fulfill the law, or to bear one another's burdens is to fulfull the law, that's what he thought was the most important thing for Christians to know. He didn't have any ands, buts, or astrisks connecting the reader to pertinent Old Testament passages that were exceptions to his statements.
Even stuff like the Trinity, the Rapture, Hell and other things I used to think were so important. The Bible doesn't devote a book or even a chapter clearly explaining these things. It just keeps talking about staying away from sin and loving.
Maybe there is stuff our brains just aren't big enough to understand, like trying to understand the 20th dimension or how the universe could be infinite, or how God has always existed. For all we know, God could be laughing as we look through the glass darkly and try to determine what we are seeing.
Anyways, don't know where all that's been hiding. I know I haven't posted in a while. Let's see if I still remember my password.
Sincerely,
Hannah |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 11:16 am: | |
Hannah, it's good to see you again! I've been wondering how you and your husband are. Welcome again!
Colleen |
Windmotion (Windmotion)
| | Posted on Friday, April 05, 2002 - 9:19 pm: | |
Thank you, Colleen.
My husband and I are preparing to become members in the local Evangelical Free church, which is an answer to prayer. He still hasn't officially severed his relationship with the SDA church, however. Im not sure why not. We get considerable amounts of mailings from them, church magazines and stuff. I think it's amazing how much stuff they send you absolutely free. I think I would value it more if I were paying for it. I kind of think the church would value it more too, if that makes any sense.
We spent Easter Sunday with my family who lives about two hours away. My mom brightly greeting my husband when he woke up with the traditional Christian Easter greeting "He is risen!" (Have you heard of it?) The reponse is supposed to be "He is risen indeed!" Instead, David said, "well, um, yes I have," thinking she was congratulating him for getting out of bed! I had to remind my Mom David wasn't used to going to church on Easter Sunday. David really likes my family, which is a blessing since he lives so far away from his family, and they are still SDA.
In my previous post, I didn't mean to imply Christians shouldn't study the Bible. Christians should study the Bible to learn the character of God so through the power of Christ we can love others and learn what sin is so we can flee from it. Christians should not read the Bible so they can beat each other up over one interpretation or another. Is a person not going to be saved if he believes that he could lose his salvation, as long as he believes all the other stuff? Anyways.
Hannah |
Lucias (Lucias)
| | Posted on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 10:24 am: | |
Windmotion,
Although tounge in cheek you have a good point about how we as SDA's study salvation like a chemistry formula. And there is a reason.
Because at the core of it, if you don't get it right, you vanish in a puff of smoke.
This is perhaps the biggest reason SDA's are so into "Bible Study", making sure you learn how to chain all the right texts together while cleverly skipping the texts that don't help your position any.
In that life Salvation depended on having the right doctrines, that is what seperated us after all our doctrines.
And that is what differentiates a lot of others and make them seem so lax in study. Salvation comes from Christ, it is claimed in Faith, and then the Favor that we received from God is extended, by action and deed, to those we come in contact with.
Its not so much a difference in degree of study but rather in focus. |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Monday, April 08, 2002 - 11:54 pm: | |
Lucias,
I took your advice and ordered "12 Steps for a Recovering Pharisee (like me)" from Amazon.com. I just got it today. Reading the introduction and the first few pages of chapter one, I must have said "ouch" five times. It looks like an excellent book. It is good to be reminded of the grace into which we have been called, and now stand.
If it continues to hold true to form, I intend to share it with some of my friends (both Adventist and non-Adventist) who are stuck in the bonds of religion. Thanks for the recommendation.
In His Grace
Doug |
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