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Lucias (Lucias)
Posted on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 8:25 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You know one of the side effects of the 1844 movement, from Millerism, was that an entire bunch of people became convinced that they were right and the rest of the world was wrong. Some have observed the plethora of groups that emerged from the collapse of Millerism.

Seventh Day Adventists were not the only ones. They were, however, one of the few that retained the date of 1844 as important. Other groups that emerged shortly after this period from among the various groups of confused followers include the Church of God, the Jehova's Witnesses, and many others.

All these groups share a common idea, they are right and everyone who doesn't agree with them completely is wrong.

Although Miller may have simply been a sincere Christian, who was mistaken, the "zeal without knowledge" spoken of in the scriptures, there is no doubt his movement brought a lot more harm than good into Christianity. Thus it is very reasonable to conclude the movement was highly charged by satanic influence.

So the question that I contemplate from time to time is "Why would the devil want to do this ?"

In a little while I will be travelling out of state to visit some shirttail relatives. I will spend a few days in the country visiting with two people who share a home, a mother and daughter. One is SDA the other Jehova's Witness. Both insist they are Christian. Both insist, although they do get along, that the other is hopelessly flawed in their beliefs and that they will go to hell as a result if they don't see the light. Both agree that the whole problem with the world is the result of the "evil influence" of paganism on the church through the catholic church and the papacy. They just can't agree on what the precise evil is.

Ultimately I think this is one of the reasons this movement was glommed onto by the Devil. By keeping sincere Christians in various error and fighting against each other he severely limits the amount of good they could do if they stood shoulder to shoulder instead of toe to toe. He does this by interejecting error, sometimes serious error that must be dealt with, into the truth of Christianity.

Besides wasting effort fighting among ourselves over the error he brings in we also discredit ourselves as Christians by spending our time declaring that each group isn't really Christian. This credibility gap then works to prevent converts from coming into Christianity and against current converts by undermining their faith. It is very effective.

Now I'm not suggesting we should not deal with various doctrinal errors. I'm just observing why I think the errors are so deviously incorporated into various groups who believe themselves Christians and what the result of that is.

Just my random observations.......
Sabra (Sabra)
Posted on Saturday, March 23, 2002 - 10:59 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's exactly the point. The unity of the "church" - the group of true believers in Jesus Christ is essential to complete the spread of the gospel. If you mention unity to SDA's, JW, other groups who think they are right- they want no part of it. The gospel is simple, the devil works hard to distract from that simplicity to prevent the unity of brothers. If the church were united in the gospel alone, the message would have been spread long ago and we'd be out of here. Individual doctrines play no part in salvation and should not be the main focus of spreading the gospel of Jesus Christ. I found a church that allows the individual to determine their own doctrines with their own guidance from the Holy Spirit. The only requirement for membership is an understanding of and belief in the birth, death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. After that, it's between me and God. That is the gospel!
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Sunday, March 24, 2002 - 10:54 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Lucias and Sabra, I think you're right. When our focus of attention is not completely centered on Jesus, we lose sight of the compelling fact that there is only one way to get to God/heaven, and that is through Jesus Christ.

Our pastor has been preaching an amazing series from 1 Kings--which, startlingly enough, always leads to Jesus as the source of life and salvation--and he pointed out today that when Elijah met the people and the priests of Baal on Mt Carmel he asked the people if they would leave Baal worship and worship God alone. The people said nothing. (see the story in 1 Kings 17-18)

He said, Here's why the people said nothing. Paganism never requires people to choose. Paganism is inclusive; people can pick and choose beliefs and/or gods and embrace whichever ones they wish simultaneously. Only the true God requires us to choose. To follow God we can only embrace him through the person of Jesus. Paganism is threatened by such choosing. We can't embrace a mosaic of religious beliefs and arrive at truth or God. We must exclusively choose Jesus alone.

Suddenly the current trends toward tolerance and inclusivity made sense; they are a form of paganism.

He asked what "baal" we held in our lives which we were resisting giving up to follow Jesus alone in every area of our lives.

I find it reassuring to understand God as being exculsive and personal. I am grateful for his choosing me and saving me and for giving me his Spirit so I don't have to struggle to understand how to live biblically in a post-modern world.

Colleen
Sabra (Sabra)
Posted on Monday, March 25, 2002 - 7:58 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I just joined a study group and they are studying Luke chapter by chapter. I came in on ch 13. And it starts out with people gossiping about the Galilieans being killed by Pilate while they were in the very act of sacrifice. Jesus says do you think these things happened to them because they were worse than any other Galileans? No, but if you don't repent the same will happen to you. The point was that they thought they were above the others and for this reason, had been spared, but Jesus told them, they weren't any better. We are all equal. Our confidence can turn into arrogance sometimes and especially if we lose sight of Jesus.
In keeping our eyes on Him we can remain humbled and live in love.
I know I need to keep that in mind in sharing with people who believe differently than me.
Praising God for increasing knowledge,
Sabra
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 3:25 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sabra, I know what you mean about praising God for increasing knowledge. I had an inisght this week that probably many of you have already had, but for some reason it took my breath away.

I'm in a women's Bible study at our church, and we are currently doing a study on the Life of Christ using The Harmony of the Four Gospels by Orville Daniel as our textbook. The lessons are written by Elizabeth Inrig. I was doing my lesson for Monday, and she asked this question referring to the passage in Matthew 5:17-20: "What principle is Jesus establishing by saying He fulfills or 'fills full' the OT teachings, symbols, and promises?"

This passage, or course, is the famous Adventist proof text for Sabbath keeping where Jesus says, "Do not think I have come to abolish the Law or the prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them," and proceeds with the "jot and tittle" comment (KJV) that in the NIV reads, "I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not the smallest letter, not the least stroke of a pen, will by any means disappear from the Law until everything is accomplished."

I've struggled with this passage for years. On one hand, I see it meaning that Jesus did fulfill, as he said, the law, and it is now superceded by Him. I also see it meaning that the curse of the law still exists for those who refuse to accept Jesus as their Savior and live instead by legalism. But the wording continued to perplex me, suggesting that in some way the Law and the Prophets would be significant, even for Christ-followers, until EVERYTHING is accomplished--suggesting the New Earth.

Well, Sunday evening I read Elizabeth's question and her simple inversion of "fulfill" to make "fill full", and suddenly the whole thing made sense in a new way. The Old Testament, including the Law and the prophecies, will exist for all timeóuntil eternityóbecause it is the PROOF that Jesus is the promised Messiah. Without the law and the sanctuary system, we would have no frame of reference to understand what Jesus did and how he intercedes for us now. Without the prophecies, we would have no reason to look at Jesus as anything other than a man who showed up out of nowhere and claimed to be the Christ. It is the Old Testament that delivers the promise of a Savior. It is the Old Testament that predicts the kind of person the Savior would be. It is the Old Testament that tells he will save us from our sins, that he would be God With UsóImmanuel.

Of course not one small letter or the least stroke of the pen would disappear from the Law and the Prophets until all would be fulfilled because the entire OT is about Jesus. It is about God caring for his people, fighting their battles, sovereignly leading his people, disciplining them and restoring them, emphasizing that without perfection they cannot enjoy his ultimate blessing, promising that he would bring them a final deliverer and put hearts of flesh into them instead of hearts of stone. It is the OT that promises the new covenant (Jeremiah 31). It is the OT that is our frame of reference by which we can evaluate Jesus and realize that He was the Seed promised to Abraham, the deliverer promised to scattered Israel, the atonement promised on evey Day of Atonement, the perfect sacrifice, the perfect human, the Savior who would institute the New Covenant.

Wow! For some reason that took me so by surprise it overwhelmed me. As an Adventist I had been taught to read that passage in Matthew from a completely flawed persepctive. That passage is embedded in the Beatitudes which is not a statement of how society should live; it is a statement of "kingdom living," a statement of the way the Holy Spirit helps a person live. The Sermon on the Mount is not an "expansion" of the 10 commandments, as I had been taught. It is the standard to which God calls his followers, a standard possible ONLY when we are living by the Holy Spirit.

The passage about the law not disappearing is NOT a statement saying, "the Law will always be here, so we have to keep on keeping #4." It is, rather, a passage proclaiming the significance and necessity of the OT in establishing the truth about our Holy God, about the Messiah, about why the New Covenant was needed. The OT is the history, the perspective, which we must have in order to understand God's relationship with us and the true need for and identity of Jesus. When we understand this passage in Matthew as establishing the significance of the OT as history and revelation instead of as a legalistic command, it adds even more weight to the understanding of the fourth commandment being completely realized in the person of Jesus.

I'm now afraid I've been a bit confusing. Again, I realize that many of you have probably already seen this passage this way, but this was one of those Adventist stongholds that I just couldn't quite see through. Have you noticed that when God reveals truth to us, it always confirmsórather than contradictsówhat he's already confirmed? And that his confirmations are consistent among people everywhere who are seeking truth? I am SO grateful to Him for his faithfulness and for revealing himself to us!!

Colleen
Sabra (Sabra)
Posted on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 4:15 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Colleen,

That was one of the first passages I questioned when I started studying. I asked God, what about this one? ...not one jot or tittle...until all is fulfilled? Almost immediately I heard in my head, When the fullness of time had come, God sent His Son. It was so clear to me. I want to share the following letter I wrote to someone refuting me because it sort of shocks me that I wrote it. It's almost like it doesn't even sound like me. It just seems so clear:

From: "sabrastone0539" <sabrastone0539@msn.com>
To: <weaniem@yahoo.com>
Subject: regarding your comments on the cult questionaire:
Date: Friday, March 22, 2002 11:02 PM

Hello PT,

I read your comments refuting my comments and beliefs and I hope you don't mind my responding.

I was raised SDA and only recently began actually studying my bible. It became clear to me that my sunday-keeping neighbors needed to be shown the error of their ways. They weren't impressed by my SDA "proof" that they were worshipping on the wrong day, so I started studying and praying to proove them wrong. Isn't that honestly the SDA goal? Well, it happened that one particular week my son got sick and I stayed home with him all week, engrossed in bible study, pleading for God to show me the "right" texts, the one thing that would convince my neighbors that they needed to be keeping the Sabbath holy. I prayed for what I wanted and read and read and read. After being stunned by Galatians, confused by Romans and inspired by the 4 gospels, I decided to open my mind, and heart and pray for God to show me whatever He wanted me to see and whatever He wanted me to understand. That was the turning point of my life.

If you will take the time to read Galatians with a sincere desire to understand the gospel and a prayerful heart, God will show you what He would have you understand. Doesn't mean it has to be the same as my revelation. I've learned for sure that when I think I have it all figured out and I'm set in concrete, God can't reveal anything to me. Don't forget, I know exactly what you believe and why you believe it. Here's the conclusion I've drawn from hours of study and prayer:

In the beginning......no, really, God created a perfect world. No sin, no work, a very personal relationship was established with Adam and Eve. God talked to them, they had complete access to God. It was perfect. On the Seventh day God rested, this is very symbolic. You know the verse, "you'll know the end from the beginning" well, keep that in mind. After the fall, man was separated from God. There was no holy spirit dwelling in men before Christ's coming, the world became very evil. Contrary to SDA teaching, there is no mention of the Sabbath until Moses. If you don't believe me, read Genesis. Remember Jesus said to the Pharisees who were so concerned about Him breaking the Sabbath that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath. Why was the Sabbath made for man? Because man was evil, man had no connection to God, no Holy Spirit, no access to even pray to God-he was separated. The Sabbath was established to provide a connection to God, a day in which the people could set aside their sinning and reflect on God. Man was not made for the Sabbath because there was no need of a Sabbath before man. What would you cease from if there was no sin, no work? The laws did not connect man to God, for this reason, Jesus had to come and die. After the cross, the work of man is complete and the work falls on Jesus, man can again rest in Him, like it was intended from the beginning. Israel never understood this, they never accepted His gift, they never got His rest. They will one day. After the cross we have the holy spirit living in us, we have direct access to God to pray and worship Him. We are called to serve Him everyday, not just one day a week. The fourth commandment is magnified, completed, established in Christ's death. See Hebrews 4. This was obviously written to those who had received the gospel but didn't know what to do about the 4th commandment: Therefore, since a promise remains of entering into His rest, let us fear lest any of you seem to have come short of it. For indeed the gospel was preached to us (the gentiles) as well as to them (the jews)but the word which they heard did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in those who heard it. For we who have believed do enter that rest, as He has said: "So I swore in my wrath, They shall not enter My rest" although the works were finished from the foundation of the world. For He has spoken in a certain place of the seventh day in this way, "And God rested on the Seventh day from all His works" and again in this place, "They shall not enter My rest" Since therefore it remains that some must enter it, and those to whom it was first preached did not enter because of disobedience, again He designates a certain day, saying in David, "Today" after such a long time, as it has been said: "Today if you will hear His voice, Donot harden your hearts" For if Joshua had given them rest, then He would not afterward have spoken of another day. There remains therefore, a rest for the people of God. For He who has entered His rest has himself also ceased from his works as God did from His.

I read that chapter a lot of times before I prayed for God to show me His will and never made sense of it. I now understand that Jesus is our rest, He alone could re-establish that connection to God with us. If you study early christianity you find that the early christians never worshipped on Saturday. They were mostly pagans and worshipped the Sun and continued their tradition of gathering on Sunday, that is why Paul wrote Romans 14, because the gentiles were judging the jews and like-wise, he told them not to judge, do what is right in your heart and let the other person stand before God with his own conviction for God will make him able to stand.

I didn't come by this in a short time, it took lots of prayer and study and thinking. God knows what we are prepared to handle at any given time. I never knew I was saved when I was an Adventist and now I can say for certainty that I am indeed saved. God never spoke to me before and now He is so real in my life. I could share so many experiences that are without a doubt God working in my life. All I ask is that you don't judge my walk with God. There is no sin in worshipping on any certain day, and yes, that includes Wednesday. We should worship God everyday, Today, as Paul put it in Galatians 4, and incorporate Him into every aspect of our life. When we give our life over to Him no day should be secular. One day we will have the perfect rest that was originally intended and we will worship God everyday, until then He lives in our hearts, Today and everyday because of the sacrifice of the cross and the completion of the works of the law. You mentioned that faith is dead without works, there is no works without faith. The only works God wants from us are the works that Jesus works through us by our faith in Him.

God bless you and lead you in all truth,
Sabra M. Reed

I think it is really a largely misunderstood fact. I don't think most people have ever really pondered it enough to understand all of that, but I feel it was God working through me to write that.

Blessings,
Sabra
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Tuesday, March 26, 2002 - 10:10 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Sabra, that is a wonderful letter. God did speak through you!

Colleen
Doug222 (Doug222)
Posted on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 4:51 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I have a question for those of you who are participating in study groups. I have beomce a member of one recently (the first since my departure from Adventism). Our group is studying certain books from the Old Testament. I'm somewhat disappointed with the scope/depth of the discussions. We seem to focus all of our attention on the specifics of the historical event, but very little on the spiritual or practical implications. I've made a couple of observations about passages (i.e. the grace metaphor in the story of Mephiboseth [sp]) that the group seemed to be totally oblivious to. I want to avoid falling back into my SDA arrogance, but I am beginning to wonder if there is any validity to the SDA charge that other Christians are not as astute students of the Bible. Do you believe that coming from the background we did, that our approach to Bible study is different than others? If so, is that an advantage or disadvantage?

Just wondering if others have had similar experiences. Please don't mistake the question for feeligs of spiritual superiority.
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 6:39 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug, you don't sound spiritually superior at all. What you are experiencing is identical to what many of us have or are experiencing. I was thinking just today about the difference being raised Adventist has made in my Bible study compared to what I observe among some of those in my Monday night women's group.

First, there are a few who really do delve and look for spiritual applications. Those few help so much in the discussions. But it's really unusual to have more than one or two others in the group that look deeply.

Second, Elizabeth Inrig, our women's study leader who is EXTREMELY unusual among evangelical women in that she's just finished her doctorate from Trinity Seminary, told me recently that many evangelical women (and I'm sure she could have included men) simply don't think theologically. In fact, one comment I heard this last week from a young, twenty-something Christian man observed that he came from four generations of Christians, and he has understood the Bible all his life, unlike those of us who have had to study to leave heretical teachings. The reality he fails to realize is that he doesn't understand the new covenant, and he still thinks Christians should observe Sunday as the Lord's Day in honor of the commandments.

I have become convinced that the majority of Christians never found it necessary or compelling to search the scriptures for truth, and consequently they only superficially understand them. They know the basics of the gospel, and they've never caught sight of the richness and depth and eternal significance of the OT and its fulfillment in the New.

Third, I think that the major way our background affects our Bible study as formers is that we have found it necessary to study deeply and inductively in order to understand the truth we were not taught. As an Adventist I was not taught inductive Bible study. The proof-text method is about as unlike inductive Bible study as peroxide is unlike water. They look alike on the surface; they even have simmilar components; their function, however, is completely different. But because our proof texts came from all over the Bible, we've had to learn to read all over the Bible IN CONTEXT and to search the scriptures topically in order to know truth from error.

I don't think the charge that other Christians are not as astute as Bible scholars is valid. Even among Advenitsts, those who actually did read and study the Bible seriously are a minority. And among evangelcial Christians, there is also a minority that search the scriptures deeply. The difference between the two group's searching habits is that among Advenists, Bible study is selective and out-of-context, while among evangelical Bible students, study is inductive and in-context with the goal of knowing truth.

So, Doug, I think what you're seeing is pretty typical. I suspect you always were a searcher, always making sure you knew what you believed and why you believed it. That, by the way, is partly why you've left! I have discovered that in my women's group, while not everyone really looks deeply into the word, many do respond with some curiosity or slight insight when I make a spiritual application.

I can also tell you that I've begun to pray during the summer before the next year's groups are established that God will bring people into my group that he wants to be there. I believe also, Doug, that God will put people into your group who need to hear your insights into the scripture. It may be only one or two at a time, but there are Christians out there who really are hungry for a deeper relationship with God, and they don't know how to study the Bible well.

I will also pray for you, Doug, that God will bring some people into your life with whom you can study deeply and develop a spiritually accountable fellowship. Richard is is a men's group of six that study the Bible and pray together, and they discuss their lives and pray constantly for each other. It is one of the best things that's ever happened to Richard!

In summary, when we leave Adventism for reasons of conscience and truth, it only happens after serious Bible study. That experience with questioning and learning to find answers in scripture becomes one of the things God redeems in our lives. It seems that God places us in situations where we not only continue to learn but where we also find ourselves teaching. No, Doug, you don't sound at all superior. What you are experiencing is normal although surprising when we discover the lack of depth most Christians experience in their study. God will speak through you, and he will also bring people into your life to grow with you.

Actually, you've made me realize that I need to start praying for all of us that God will place us in situations where he can speak through us and glorify himself through the study that we've done.

Praising God for redeeming our past,
Colleen
Dennis (Dennis)
Posted on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 8:53 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Dear FAF friends,

This discussion is most relevant and important for us Formers. Colleen and Sabra, your biblical insights reflect your intense search for truth. Yes, I also have repeatedly noticed how newly- discovered Scriptural insights build upon and/or reinforce true doctrine. I particularly noticed this happening when I was studying the state of the dead and hell doctrines. I was truly amazed to find how interrelated the true biblical doctrines really are. I read the book titled TWO VIEWS OF HELL by Fudge and Peterson. Peterson successfully portrayed the whole picture to me--not just obscure proof texts. Once I realized how eschatology, soteriology, and Christology needed to harmonize, I was truly awe-struck. I found that most of what we know about hell, for example, is what Jesus Himself taught about it. The overall picture on a topic (i.e., how it relates to other doctrines, etc), was clearly an eye-opener for me. It is, indeed, exciting when one finds the last piece to a puzzle. More importantly, the last piece of a puzzle unveils the whole picture.

God called us out of Adventism, with His own timing and purpose, to make a difference for His kingdom. God is good all the time! All the time God is good! Aristotle correctly stated: "Truth invites examination." Our experience in seeking and finding God's light, after years in darkness, equips us in no small measure to be catylsts for truth. Truly, we have many reasons to praise our awesome, risen Savior; consequently, we have many blessings and insights to share with others.

HAPPY EASTER!

Dennis J. Fischer
Doug222 (Doug222)
Posted on Wednesday, March 27, 2002 - 8:57 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow! Colleen, you definitely have the gift of encouragement. Your response really warmed my heart. I praise God for you. Thanks.

Doug
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
Posted on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 3:04 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Amen to all the responses to Doug222!

Doug, finding an almost apathetic attitude or a better way of putting it would be surface attitude with other Christians has been most disheartening indeed. Not just in studies but in the many different Churchs that I've now investigated.

However, these Christians, other brothers and sisters to me in Christ Jesus have shown much interest in study and this is the good news!

Their hearts want to know truth as all of us here do or they wouldn't be at the study nor at Church.

And these very same people, or at least many of them, will see and hear how the spiritual is there in Scripture, but they never noticed. Then you will be the one who they turn to for lots of questions. At least that has been a truth in my life. Not that I have all the answers, for most certainly there is much much learning for me yet. Still, there is something to share that perhaps they hadn't noticed and now their eyes light right up when seeing these deep spiritual insights.

I just believe that they have never thought about some of the deep things that we think about, when it comes to God's Word. Not their fault necessarily, just the way it's always been in either their home life or their church life.

And remember that we have REALLY had to search Scripture for we came from a background of, as stated in someone's above post, prooftexting and much indoctrination. We are fighting our way out and trying to rid of the poisonous teachings that were our very lives. At least that's how we saw it at the time. Or I'll just say, I did for sure.

But I can tell you this from my own experience, that, as Colleen has stated, God will put people into your life and you'll find yourself showing and teaching some of these profound spiritual insights that we are finding.

You do not sound arrogant at all by the way. In fact, as I read it, it really hit home with me and the same type of experience that you are currently experiencing was what connected me to such an extent that I just had to post regarding this matter.

Don't worry nor fret about this Doug, as in God's timing He will give you even more insight into why you have discovered this sometimes very sad truth. But He redeems all that the locusts have eaten and you will be surprised at how this all works out. Trust HIM for HE HIMSELF is showing you many things that need to be known to others.

You will be blessed abundantly and then in turn, be able to bless others in the same way. Praise His Holy Name forever and ever!

It's late, so hoping this has added to the many other great posts, some help or answer, I'll say goodnight and God Bless,

Your sister in Christ Jesus,
DtB
Denisegilmore (Denisegilmore)
Posted on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 3:34 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Shalom!

Although this is way off topic, thought I'd throw this in while still contemplating hitting the sack.

"Passover is the 8 day observance commemorating the freedom and exodus of the Israelites (Jewish slaves) from Egypt during the reign of the Pharaoh Ramses II.
A time of family gatherings and lavish meals called Seders, the story of Passover is retold through the reading of the Haggadah. With its special foods, songs, and customs, the Seder is the focal point of the Passover celebration. Passover begins on the 15th day of the Jewish month of Nissan. As the Jewish day begins at sundown the night before, this year (2002) the first night of Passover is Wednesday March 27th."

From a Jewish website (forgot the name already, sorry.)

Also, it is my birthday! What an amazing thing to me, having been raised in many of the Jewish customs, to know this!

So, for me, this birthday has more significance than any other before.

Thanks for being patient and sorry for being off topic.

In Messiah Jesus always your sister,
DtB
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
Posted on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 4:01 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I guess I must be truly blessed then. I was really surprised by what Doug's experiencing, and apparantely some of you others also. Please don't think I say this arrogantly AT ALL....in the church God put us in, they dig very deep into the Word and every sermon, every study I've been in makes personal application to our lives in every way. I love it! So I guess, I'm giving you hope...maybe there's some in depth people out there in the Word of God.

Denise, it is interesting that you mention the Passover being an 8 day celebration. In some writings, the early Jewish Christians who worshipped on Sunday considered it the 8th day, the day of freedom, the day of deliverance, but through Christ now. I read one Jewish scholar who sees the 8th day like this: God made the world in 6 days and rested the 7th, and then on the 8th day God will make the world new again. I don't have a quote on where I read that. It just stuck with me. Shalom to you too. :) Happy Birthday as well.

I found it neat to find out that the Passover bread is suppose to be baked on the rack, as to leave stripes on the bread for by His stripes we are healed, and the bread must be pierced through to be sure there is no rising whatsover for purity, symbolizing Him who was pierced for our transgressions. Some fun things I learned through Jews for Jesus passover at our church last Sunday.

Blessings!!!
Violet (Violet)
Posted on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 6:23 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

What I am finding in my group is that they have not studied the Old Testiment much at all. They do not see the need to, because they are under the New Covenant. Much the same way as a SDA I knew all of the Old Testiment stories but was not real clear who Paul was, and the only thing I knew about Timothy was that he lived with his grandmother.

As long as we continue to pray that the Holy Spirit will reveal to us what He wants us to understand on His time table we will be OK.

But I am finding out that because of the legalism in my past I can share alot with christians who grew up under the new covenant. In ways they would of never understood. It's so amazing to me how from you deepest hurts the Lord can be gloified, and you can be blessed.
Lydell (Lydell)
Posted on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 6:58 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Well Sherry, I thought maybe I was the only one having the same thoughts reading the discussion. I too have really been struck by how every sermon and Bible study makes the point of applying the stuff to life in a personal way. It's vastly different from the SDA days!

Of course there are a majority who don't really dig deeply into the word as they need to, but I think a good point was made that if the folks are showing up for Bible study, then they are there because they have the desire to learn. Maybe some don't yet realize just how much work that will entail to make the knowledge their own rather than the teachers....but they ARE in a learning process.

I think there are some things that we as ex-SDA's could get pumped about the need to study deeply that others would have a "well, duh" reaction to. It is such a given with them that they don't have the need to make an issue about it. That's likely because they were taught correctly from the beginning and haven't had to go back and undo the incorrect teachings in their brains.

As has been noted, it certainly helps to understand the OT background stuff to understand the NT stuff. I agree completely.

But I'm trying never to lose sight of one fact. Time and again I have noticed folks, even those with little "education", who I must admit are MILES ahead of me in some areas of their understanding of some points of Bible teaching. And some of those things rightly should be considered kindergarten material of the faith. It's rather humbling! I'm learning to be very careful in keeping that in perspective when I start wondering how in the world it is that someone can't understand some other point of scripture that I have a sound grasp on. We are all in a process of learning, just at different stages. No matter what stage we are on, Bible study is vital definitely.
Violet (Violet)
Posted on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 7:15 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

We are studing "Lord, I need grace to make it today" by Kay Arthur. Last night the question was posed as "What do we ned to be able to keep the law" They answered the Holy Spirit Hairs were standing up on the back of my neck. I posed the question "What do you mean by the 'Law'?" The rest of the class assumed it was love your neighbour, love God. Here I was on the decalouge. It all depends on where you are coming from.
Lucias (Lucias)
Posted on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 3:02 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug,

I've had similar observations to yours about the depth of study in groups that i have participated in.

Most Christians, SDA or otherwise, are not deep students of the Bible. Most simply learn what they are taught. A few, of both groups, probably best classed as theologians, do study intently.

Adventism, being more closely defined, allows for a perception of deep study when it is actually closer, in nature, to a chatecism recital.

If I can presume that you were formerly an SDA. I suspect you felt an equal frustration in those circles when you talked of certain things you'd studied/learned and they were met with blank stares or knee-jerk recitation of catch-phrase answers.

In many ways I have learned "the more things change the more they stay the same".

As to the history of the event -vs- the meaning. Remember that many of these people may not have the background you do. Some may be fairly new to the faith.

You can never tell when an observation you shared got someone to thinking but just not to talking. Perhaps they had never heard your observation and didn't know how to digest it.

I think of one case such as this, in an SDA study group, where a woman was completely shocked to learn the words in RED in her KJV were not the precise words spoken by Christ but rather translations of the Aramic/Hebrew that he spoke.

She hadn't been indoctrinated that KJV was the one true version she had just been told that the words in RED were the words of Christ and she took that at face value.

I am not currently participating in a group study of any kind. I need to get into one. Maybe I'll look into it this weekend.
Sabra (Sabra)
Posted on Thursday, March 28, 2002 - 8:08 pm:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Doug,

I'd have to agree with Lucias. Most "christians" are not in the Word. I don't even know that the biggest percentage of the people going to church are sincerely seeking God. Everybody is on their own level in their walk and you are just farther along than many. Most likely God put you in this particular group for a reason. Pray about it and if you feel you could be fed more somewhere else and God leads you elsewhere-go. I changed churches from the first one I attended because there was no real bible being taught or studied in the way that I felt I needed it. The people who are there are happy with the way things are, people are different. I feel though, that God has placed me in a church where the pastor is very concerned with educating the church with historical and theological facts and he really likes to disect and cross-reference the scriptures. My Sunday school class is a little hum-drum when it comes to any in-depth discussion, but I've joined a great study group that is really into that. I hope that you can get the group thinking a little more or find a group that you're more suited for. I will pray for you. Let us know how it's going. Don't get discouraged!! You're not arrogant, just intelligent!
Sabra
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
Posted on Friday, March 29, 2002 - 8:37 am:   Edit PostDelete PostPrint Post   Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

You know, the common thread among all the posts above is that it's vital to be studying the Bible. I have to agree with some of you who've said that even though many members of study groups are superficial, they are still there because they want to study. I believe that. In fact, I've noticed that the women in my groups over the past three years, no matter how superficial they were, really did benefit from reading and studying, even if it seemed that their understandings were not really deep.

God really does bless our study of his word however trained or untrained we are. I am convinced that God leads us, when we trust him, to the people with whom he wants us to study. I've been really humbled and overwhelmed with the personal and spiritual support I've received from some of the women I've studied with who seemed superficial in their Bible study. The Holy Spirit gifts and blesses us in such different ways!

God provides people who can challenge our growth while simultaneously putting people in our path whom we can support and teach. The miracle is that such different people can study together and be actually bonded throught the Holy Spirit! This bond in the Spirit among people of really different backgrounds and Bible study experience is one of the (still) most surprising things I've found in the Christian community. I think one of the biggest differences is the way many of these Christians pray. They take it seriously! I just never had these kinds of experiences among Adventists!

I praise God for the fellowship he gives us in and through him!
Colleen

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