Post Number: 2967
|Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2013 - 11:00 am: || |
Hebrews 10:12 says: "But this Man, after He had offered one sacrifice for sins forever, sat down at the right hand of God," So obviously, Jesus went immediately into the Most Holy Place upon His ascension.
I want to point that verse out to any lurking Adventists once again; because as soon as someone in a cult hears the truth, the devil is right there to snatch it our of their heart if he can.
Kind of like that parable that Jesus told of the grain that falls on the hard ground and the birds of the air snatch it away. Someone in a cult is hardened to truth. They're ready to excuse anything they believe.
I wrote to the head of the Andrews University church (at least he was back then - I don't know if he still is) Dwight Nelson, and he told me that God the Father's throne has wheels and that He wheels His chair back and forth from the Most Holy Place and THAT'S how Jesus was able to sit down at His side. I quit writing back to him at that point because it seemed to me that he didn't really want to know the truth, but I should have asked him...
Is there a place in Heaven more Holy than where God is? The answer is of course, NO!!! And here's a verse that speaks to that too, (for any Adventists still wanting to believe that there's someplace holier than God.)
"And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb." Revelation 21:22 (So God IS the Most Holy Place!)
The people in cults explain away verses that contradict their beliefs. For example, to support her belief that only 144,000 of the first people to become Jehovah's Witnesses will go to Heaven and the rest will live eternally on this Earth; she said that Revelation 21:3 "Behold the tabernacle of God is with men, and He will dwell with them..." meant that God won't actually live with the saved on the earth, but that God will dwell in the ceiling of the tent - Heaven.
Are you, Seventh-day Adventists reading this, doing the same thing as that Jehovah's Witness?
Post Number: 875
|Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2013 - 2:15 pm: || |
Adventism also teaches that because Stephen saw Jesus standing this proves that Jesus' sitting down at the right hand of God was symbolic and temporary, and that He stood up again and you know the rest of the story surrounding the Investigative Judgment...
"But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, And said, 'Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God." Acts 7:55,56
(Message edited by freeatlast on February 17, 2013)
Post Number: 2831
|Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2013 - 4:37 pm: || |
There is no the logic in Adventist logic!
The posture of Jesus, sitting or standing isn't the point. Where he is located is the point!
Either standing or sitting, Jesus is at the side of the Father.
There is no holier place to be than at the side of the Father.
Post Number: 9929
|Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2013 - 5:39 pm: || |
Amen Phil. You are absolutely correct. It is not about standing or sitting. It is about Awesome Jesus being at the side of the Father.
Post Number: 876
|Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2013 - 7:10 pm: || |
I was never taught that the right hand of the Father = Most Holy Place. They refer to different things in Adventist theology as far as I know. Right hand of the Father is symbolic of Jesus being put in authority at His ascension, and Most Holy Place is a physical location in the earthly and Heavenly sanctuaries.
I wonder if anyone else was taught in Adventism that they refer to the same thing.
Post Number: 952
|Posted on Sunday, February 17, 2013 - 9:11 pm: || |
For what its worth~
I was taught that the "sanctuary" is a physical place in heaven, with two compartments.
JESUS has been "standing" in one or the other of the compartments since His ascension.
Alone, apart from GOD~
When JESUS ascended into heaven after His resurrection he went into the "Holy Place" in the
"sanctuary", and took up residence there until
the year 1844 a.d.; at this time in history, He moved into
the "Most Holy Place" in the "sanctuary" to begin
the "Investigative Judgement", of the dead who
had died believing in GOD, from the beginning of time on this earth.
When this was completed, He open the "books" of those who are living in the present time, and is still
there judging whether or not, as names come before Him, if they have unconfessed sin.
If sin is found, these unfortunate people are doomed to eternal separation from GOD!
Those lucky people found without sin are granted eternal life with GOD!
The unbelievable cruelty of this "lie" is no one on earth knows when their name has "come up" in the
judgment process~ therefore "we" are on "probation" until JESUS appears in the "Second Coming"!
At the "Second Coming" the dead will be raised to life, and along with the living be told their fate!
This was enough to scare me to death, for far too long!(about 45 yrs). It certainly did not bring me to
repentance~ I just gave up trying to "be good enough"~ it was a lost cause!
I thought, if I die, I die. I will only burn in the fire, for a short time~ This "doctrine" of
the adventists, I believe is truly "crazy-making"!
Without this devilish "doctrine" their whole "church of cards" collapses!
My heart breaks for those still believing this deception of satan~
(Message edited by mjcmcook on February 17, 2013)
Post Number: 449
|Posted on Monday, February 18, 2013 - 6:58 am: || |
I love your reference to Rev 21:22, Asurprise! And Phil, yes, WHERE Jesus is - that's the point.
That is the conclusion I have come to in reading thru the bible: Holy IS God; Holy is where God is. Holy is declared by God. God declared the 7th day holy. God makes holy. Rest is with Him, & in Him. Mankind had that rest with him & in him, until the fall, disobedience, breaking covenant (Hosea 6:7). Then man was banished from the garden & the entrance was guarded by flaming angelic beings. In the Tabernacle, & later the Temple the Most Holy Place was where God was, & the place was guarded by the cherubim hovering over the Mercy Seat, the PLACE of atonement. The access to the Most Holy Place was restricted, until Jesus died & was resurrected & ascended to heaven.
The first time I read thru Hebrews I saw clearly that Jesus, our High Priest, took his blood into the Most Holy Place, made atonement for our sins = the true sacrifice. He opened the way back to the Father, into the most holy place. We are covered by the righteousness of Jesus, & thus are not killed, but can enter God's presence thru Jesus Christ.
I also find it interesting that Jesus committed his spirit to his Father; whereas the first martyr, Stephen, committed his spirit to Jesus:
Luke 23:46 Then Jesus shouted, "Father, I entrust my spirit into your hands."
Acts 7:59 And as they stoned him, Stephen prayed, "Lord Jesus receive my spirit."
Post Number: 145
|Posted on Monday, February 18, 2013 - 9:46 am: || |
I was tortured in exactly the same way... Because of this doctrine, I KNEW I had a pretty slim chance of being saved, even though I did everything "right" and was a good person/SDA. I was so filled with despair that I, too, reasoned that to be annihilated wasn't so bad after all, since I wouldn't be conscious of what I lost. The doctrine actually drove me to a place with being "ok" with separation from God for eternity! Because there is no salvation through grace in the IJ doctrine, I knew I couldn't be good enough to be saved - no human can. I always fell short. Hello!? This is the human condition - therefore, we can ONLY receive eternal life as a completely free gift. No strings attached. Any other way leads to eternal death. Period.
In my opinion, a doctrine that leads a person to rationalizing that it's ok to be annihilated and eternally separated from God can ONLY come from the pit of hell. After all, whose main purpose is it to eternally separate as many people from their Creator as possible? Could it be.... Satan?! Just sayin'...
(Message edited by lyrical on February 18, 2013)
Post Number: 953
|Posted on Monday, February 18, 2013 - 10:18 am: || |
YES~ satan is the originator ~ just "respond'n" to your ?, Lyrical !
I, too, am convinced the 'IJ' comes from the "pit of hell"~
It is a devilish doctrine, still held by the adventist denomination~
I stated in my post # 952~ without this doctrine,
their "church of cards" collapses~!
I recognize that this response may sound 'militant' to some of those reading
this post~ However, GOD calls believers to "STAND" for the "TRUTH" of HIS WORD~
There is NO "Biblical" TRUTH to be found in this 'doctrine'~
One of the worst parts of this is, many the Leaders and ministers of the church, know it is a false doctrine;
And they continue to remain silent.
Post Number: 2969
|Posted on Monday, February 18, 2013 - 11:25 am: || |
Mj; it's hard to imagine people putting money ahead of eternity with God, but I'm sure it happens all the time in all the cult's leadership!
Here's another place where it says that Jesus went into the Most Holy Place upon His ascension...
"This hope we have as an anchor of the soul, both sure and steadfast, and which enters the Presence behind the veil, where the forerunner has entered for us, even Jesus, having become High Priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek." Hebrews 6:19-20
The King James Version says: "within the veil." Here's another place in the King James Version to put it into perspective for any Adventists lurking, because it says "within the veil" and also "holy place" rather than "Most Holy," yet it's obviously talking about the Most Holy Place....
"And the Lord said unto Moses, Speak unto Aaron thy brother, that he come not at all times into the holy place within the vail before the mercy seat, which is upon the ark; that he die not: for I will appear in the cloud upon the mercy seat." Leviticus 16:2
(And speaking of Leviticus 16, later in the chapter it talks about Aaron placing the sins of Israel on the scapegoat - verse 21, which brings a person to Isaiah 53:6 where it says that the sins of the world were placed on Jesus!)
Post Number: 205
|Posted on Monday, February 18, 2013 - 7:44 pm: || |
I resonate with the conversations above as well. Before I truly believed in Jesus, I was relying mostly on my works for salvation, and a 'little bit' on Jesus. Of course, I always fell short and knew it.
I figured that I hadn't committed too many bad sins, so I would only burn for a short period of time... You know EGW's quote of how some would burn as twigs, and the devil as a stump...
I just didn't think there was any chance for me and I resigned myself to this. However, I continued attending church and being active, for a few reasons:
2) it's the right thing to do
3) it's better than nothing at all
I've probably mentioned this on the forum before, but it was when my brother passed away that I truly longed to be saved, and asked God to show me how to be saved. (I wanted to see my brother again--and I had asked God to show me whether he was saved, and the response was 'Yes'.) So that was my motivating factor in these questions to God.
Within 2 months, the SDA tanged ball of thread had unravelled for me, and I believed in Jesus fully for my salvation. And then, Heaven was not only a place where I would see my brother again, but it was where I would see Jesus, and that is so exciting!
Post Number: 955
|Posted on Monday, February 18, 2013 - 8:16 pm: || |
Your post #205 is very moving~ thank-you so much for sharing!
It also brought something to my mind that I believe is worth pondering~
IF~ you are still a member of the adventist church, or any other church, for that matter,
and they espouse ANY "doctrines" or "traditions" that you cannot honestly support, do you find
it convenient to "brush them aside", for whatever reason, and continue your membership?
Do you think you are compromising the simplicity of the Gospel, because you either like the "traditions"
and make excuses for the "doctrines" ?
I think this is a worthwhile question, speaking as a "Former adventist", because I found it necessary,
for me, to check out as completely as I could, the "doctrines" and "traditions"
of many denominations, before I decided to "put down new spiritual roots" in a church.
Post Number: 956
|Posted on Monday, February 18, 2013 - 10:16 pm: || |
After rereading my post #955, I do not want you to think I was writing directly to you
with my "something to ponder"!
It was meant in a "general sense" to anyone reading the post!
Post Number: 58
|Posted on Tuesday, February 19, 2013 - 5:34 pm: || |
Love the allusion to Church Lady, Lyrical. haha :-)
Post Number: 646
|Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - 5:14 am: || |
I think that even more important than WHERE He is right now is WHAT He's doing (and what He is not doing). I heard an SDA preacher say recently that He is doing whatever He can to try to save individuals, but we're so stubborn. !!!!!
Jesus is praying for us. He's strengthening our faith and making come to pass what was already DONE at the Cross. Read John 17 and see how Jesus prays for his followers. He's not stressed out, wondering if people will ever be pure enough to allow into Heaven.
Post Number: 450
|Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - 3:06 pm: || |
So true Cloudwatcher. He is EVER INTERCEDING for us. We will never be without His intercession. Myriad scriptures throughout the bible say that God KNOWs those who are His. He knows our every thought & our every move & motive. There is no need for an IJ.
Post Number: 959
|Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - 4:41 pm: || |
GOD is a GOD of Love~
GOD does NOT Lie~
GOD has told us in Scripture that HE is the 'Same', yesterday, today, and forever~
It is unthinkable that GOD would go back on HIS Word~
The Liar, is satan~ he is the 'father of lies'...he is the one who is a thief, and destroyer~
When people do not study Scripture, actually search it for 'Truth', then
they can be sucked in by lies about GOD~
That is what happened in my family, going back four generations.
The Investigative Judgement, is a Lie, from satan. People are only able to recognize
this fact, when they can admit that ellen g. white is a liar in league with satan, as
his willing accomplice in writing his lies.
Since I was one, who believed these lies for over half of my life,
I can sympathize with others that are caught in this web of lies.
I know now, that I was being prayed for by others that the scales would be removed from my eyes.
GOD in HIS mercy and grace drew me to Himself. The prayers of many were answered~
I am forever grateful for the ones who "stood in the gap" for me!
Likewise, I willingly stand "in the gap" for those who are still trapped in the web of deception.
Post Number: 146
|Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - 8:52 pm: || |
Goodday2u... I just couldn't resist! ;)
Post Number: 14293
|Posted on Wednesday, February 20, 2013 - 11:09 pm: || |
It's still so amazing to me that Adventists use Hebrews to try to buttress the IJ/sanctuary teaching. No WONDER most of the Adventists I knew didn't understand Hebrews. I found it to be a completely obscure and frustrating book until I understood what the Bible actually teaches about the new covenant.
Now--Hebrews is So clear!