Post Number: 14770
|Posted on Monday, March 31, 2014 - 4:43 pm: || |
On Friday evening at FAF we read John 18:4-6 which describes the mob's reaction as they recognized Jesus when Judas led them to Him to arrest Him:
So Jesus, knowing all the things that were coming upon Him, went forth and said to them, "Whom do you seek?"
They answered Him, "Jesus the Nazarene." He said to them, "I am He." And Judas also, who was betraying Him, was standing with them. So when He said to them, "I am He," they drew back and fell to the ground.
Charles (Trans4mer) said he remembered distinctly that EGW said in the Desire of Ages that the crowd fell down because an angel appeared in front of Jesus. In reality, the mob fell down because Jesus used the name of God, "I AM", to identify Himself (The "HE" is added in translation to make it grammatically correct in English; however, it is italicized in the NASB to let us know it is not in the original Greek.)
EGW stripped Jesus of His identity over and over, and here again is an example of her attributing divine glory and power to an angel and to the Holy Spirit instead of to Jesus Himself. Here is her quote (thank you, Charles!):
No traces of His recent agony were visible as Jesus stepped forth to meet His betrayer. Standing in advance of His disciples He said, “Whom seek ye?” They answered, “Jesus of Nazareth.” Jesus replied, “I am He.” As these words were spoken, the angel who had lately ministered to Jesus moved between Him and the mob. A divine light illuminated the Saviour’s face, and a dovelike form overshadowed Him. In the presence of this divine glory, the murderous throng could not stand for a moment. They staggered back. Priests, elders, soldiers, and even Judas, fell as dead men to the ground. (DA 694.5)
Post Number: 23
|Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2014 - 5:43 am: || |
This would imply that the angel was divine, but the Son of God was not. Very strange.
In a former life I was non-trinitarian (like the Adventist "pioneers"), but I never noticed this.
Post Number: 139
|Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2014 - 7:37 am: || |
rabbit trail question- Jesus said the same words to the Samaritan woman at the well (I am He) but no record of her falling down? I am guessing sovereign timing and the needs of that moment being different His full power was not revealed? Too early in the timing of His ministry?... What I do appreciate is that we can not, like egw, add to the word or change it and for that knowledge alone I am comforted and grateful!!
Post Number: 3017
|Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2014 - 8:13 am: || |
In John 18 those who came against Jesus were enemies of God who could not stand before a holy God. It was God who struck them down.
In John 4, when we review the whole story of the Samaritan woman, we see someone earnestly seeking the Savior. I don’t think God would have had any reason to strike her down so that didn’t happen.
Yes, in both passages Jesus said “I AM” but in context the one example was that of enemies of God and in the other she was not. The Samaritan woman responded to the news of who he was by proclaiming in her village she had just met the Messiah.
Those who are seeking God humbly ‘knee before God’ of their own accord instead of unwillingly forcibly ‘falling’ before God as the accusers of Jesus did.
Post Number: 140
|Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2014 - 8:43 am: || |
Thank you Phil!
Post Number: 141
|Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2014 - 10:17 am: || |
Post Number: 142
|Posted on Tuesday, April 01, 2014 - 11:10 am: || |
.... then what about John 8:58 -before Abraham was I Am... and the Jews stoned him? They were enemies?...
just trying to understand... I guess it remains the context not just the words? I will continue to study it out but just curious how it all fits together...why his Divinity is revealed with power and then not.... I am not a scholar and trust my Lord and His Word - just want to understand how it relates to the understanding of egw' s heretical description cited above....maybe all I need to know is that she added to the word and denied His deity and power...
Post Number: 14775
|Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2014 - 4:00 pm: || |
Rocky, when He was on earth, Jesus' glory was largely hidden from people. He was revealing His identity throughout His ministry on the basis of fulfilling Scripture. His ministry was one sign after another, one fulfilled prophecy after another. He did the works of the Father, as he said many times. He healed and raised dead people and controlled the weather and creation—things the Jews knew only God could do.
You are right; unbelievers did not always fall when confronted with Jesus and His identity. The Jews responded repeatedly by trying to kill Him. Unbelievers' responses to Jesus were varied, but they never responded with acceptance and eagerness. It was not the falling back that verified His identity. His word established His identity at that moment.
There were likely several factors at work when Jesus was arrested. He began the last week of His life by intentionally drawing all eyes to Himself as He staged His triumphal entry. On Thursday evening, as He ate the Passover feast with His disciples and stated that the one who ate the morsel would betray Him, Judas got up after the receiving the morsel and left. John 13:31-32 says,
Therefore when he had gone out, Jesus said, "Now is the Son of Man glorified, and God is glorified in Him; if God is glorified in Him, God will also glorify Him in Himself, and will glorify Him immediately."
Jesus' arrest and crucifixion were highly public. It was God's intention to have all eyes on Jesus as He offered the perfect sacrifice for human sin as the Lamb of God. We aren't told the details of exactly what happened when Jesus identified Himself as I AM at the moment of His betrayal, but the fact that the crowd fell back confirms that His declaration was clear, and the people understood it. There was possibly some sense of authority, an awareness of God's glory and presence as He said it. We aren't told; what we are told, however, is that they fell back. We can be sure that God let His identity be known and its impact felt.
Post Number: 144
|Posted on Wednesday, April 02, 2014 - 8:27 pm: || |
Thank you Colleen- I knew I wasn't quite understanding but realize it was a climactic and clear revelation of Jesus as I AM- what an amazing demonstration and I just want to shout Hallelujah !! The John 13 quote makes it clear- again thank you...
Post Number: 9
|Posted on Monday, April 21, 2014 - 4:22 pm: || |
After reading this post I was reading a book of angel stories and came across this quote. "The miracles of Christ for the afflicted and suffering were wrought by the power of God through the ministration of the angels. And it is through Christ, by the ministration of His heavenly messengers, that every blessing comes from God to us." DA 143 So according to this quote Jesus wasn't even capable of executing his own miracles, He used angels to accomplish the task.
Although the next quote is not directly related it still seeks in my mind to denegrate Christ's divinity.
"Jesus revealed no qualities, and exercised no powers, that men may not have through faith in Him." DA 664 In other words one of us could have taken His place as long as we had faith. Am I totally misunderstanding this?
Post Number: 1456
|Posted on Monday, April 21, 2014 - 6:05 pm: || |
You got it right, Iamfree...i mean, she taught a different, "weakish" Jesus. Let's face it she taught strongly that He is Michael (an archangel)…and also that He couldn't see through "the portals of the tomb"!
Post Number: 10
|Posted on Monday, April 21, 2014 - 9:28 pm: || |
Nowise, Thank you for the welcome! I am just starting to understand how she undermined Christ's divinity. As much as I dislike to think about the roots of where she got her information (besides the plagarism), when you read quotes like these and the one Coleen listed, you can see a theme appearing of magnifying the role of an angel. I know that angels are amazing messengers and are invaluable to God and us, but I know that only one kind of angel wants to elevate themselves and make their role seem very important while at the same time downplaying Christ's divinity.
Post Number: 15
|Posted on Friday, May 02, 2014 - 12:03 pm: || |
Seventh Day Adventism's founders were very strongly out and out Arians who strongly denied the Trinity and Divinity of Christ for at least 50 years:
And even today, their statement of Doctrines announces that they believe in the "Trinity," only it is under their very own terms, conditions and definition, not the one advanced by Orthodox Christianity. Their "Trinity" doctrine is essentially "Tri-theism," which is an Ariansm that was watered-down enough to get Walter Martin off their back and that grudgingly concedes that Jesus may have had some divine characteristics.
Whenever Evangelics cult-watchers aren't poking their noses in where they don't belong, then they talk about how they REALLY believe.
(Message edited by ResJudicata on May 02, 2014)