| Author | Message | ||
| Xenonlion Registered user Username: Xenonlion Post Number: 2 Registered: 11-2014 |
I know it's the substance of things hoped for and the evidence of things unseen, but what does that mean? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14960 Registered: 12-2003  |
For starters, let's start with a bit of context:
The author of Hebrews illustrates his point. If we by faith understand that the universe was created by the word of God, we see the literal "substance" caused by the unseen thing: God's creative Word. We can't see God's word, but we believe that His word created the universe. Thus the creation is "the evidence" of the unseen reality: God's seminal WORD. Our faith is the "substance", the actual "thing" that confirms that what we hope for is real. We are living for the realization of our glorification and salvation. We are expecting the reality of God's presence promised to all those who believe in the Son and are born again. Our faith is something no one can generate on our own. We are by nature objects of wrath (Eph. 2:3). According to Paul in Romans 3, no human seeks for God or can please Him. In order to be able to desire God and please Him, God Himself must intervene in our lives. Ephesians 2:8-9 says that by grace we have been saved, through faith—and that not of ourselves; it is a gift of God. Even our faith is a gift from God. So when the author of Hebrews says faith is the substance of things hoped for, we can know that our actual faith in God and in His unfailing word is the "substance" that God gives us when we have been made alive in Him. Our actual faith is the substance that we actually possess as a gift from God, and the fact that we have this faith guarantees our eternal future. Ephesians 1:13-14, in fact, states that the Holy Spirit is the guarantee of what is to come. And our faith, which is a gift from God, is the evidence that all the things God has promised are true and will come to pass. We will realize all He has promised us. Real faith is not something we generate mentally. It is something we receive when we trust Jesus and are born again. Our faith in God and our faith in His word and promises is His gift to us, and the fact that we have faith in Him is the evidence that all His promises are true. If He can bring our dead hearts to life and transfer us from the domain of darkness to the kingdom of His beloved Son, He will also never leave us (Rom. 8), will give us the mind of Christ (1 Cor. 2:16), will glorify us (Rom. 8), and so on. Colleen | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2133 Registered: 7-2004  |
Colleen, I followed you most of the way through this description. Our faith is a gift from God. - exactly Faith isn't something we generate mentally. - very important point Faith is something we receive - absolutely when we trust in Jesus - OK, now I'm confused. How do I trust in Jesus before I have faith? Isn't it the faith that I have received as a gift from God that allows me to trust to Jesus? Are you suggesting that the process of salvation starts with my trust rather than a gift from God? That the gifts from God all come in response to something that I do (trust)? | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2135 Registered: 7-2004 |
It is easy to criticize, and much harder to contribute. Now for my attempt. Rom 10:14 How then will they call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? 15 And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, “How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!” 16 But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, “Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?” 17 So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. Acts 2:37 Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38 And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39 For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” When we hear the Gospel, God is the One who causes that message to cut to our heart, like it did at Pentecost. We receive the hearing of the Gospel. We receive the work of this cutting to our heart. This is what creates that spark of faith (or trust) in Christ. Based on that faith/trust, we respond (confession, repentance, baptism) We are born again (the exact how and when within that trust/response process is never plainly outlined in Scripture), the spark that began with hearing becomes a flame, fanned and maintained by the Holy Spirit dwelling within us. | ||
| Capross Registered user Username: Capross Post Number: 101 Registered: 7-2012 |
Ric and Colleen Have you ever noticed how many times the scripture talks about belief and how many times it talks about faith. I used to think these two words are synonyms. At present I do not believe that they are. We choose to believe. I.E. we choose to act as if something is true because God said so even if all of our senses are screaming doubt. Jesus said "For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son that whosoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. When we make that choice God rewards us by giving us faith. I.E. the unquestioning knowledge that these things are indeed true. Cap | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2136 Registered: 7-2004 |
Do I understand you correctly Cap that you are teaching that faith is our reward for making good choices? Is faith a gift if it was based on us doing the right thing (choosing to act one way) rather than the wrong thing? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14966 Registered: 12-2003 |
Rick, you are totally right. That really was a mistake on my part. I didn't mean to suggest that we get faith after we trust Christ, although that's what I said. I absolutely believe we trust Christ BECAUSE God gives us the faith to believe. The faith we have that enables us to trust Christ—and the faith we have ongoingly AFTER we trust Him—is a gift from God. I was intent on explaining that the fact that we live with the existence of faith after we are born again is itself the evidence and the substance of all that we can't yet see. It is the "proof" that all the rest of His promises are true! Thank you for catching that. It was a bad mistake. Cap, Romans 3: 9-18 is explicit that no one seeks for God nor can please Him. God must make it possible for us to believe. It is true that we must choose to believe. This tension is part of the reality expressed in Scripture. I love what Gary Inrig said a couple of weeks ago when he was teaching part of the introduction to Revelation. Someone asked him a question about God's sovereignty. His answer was that there is an "unresolved" tension in the Bible. God's sovereignty over predestination and election and over our spiritual life and our ability to believe is clear. Concurrently, the Bible teaches that our choices matter, and we are asked to believe. Gary said if we remove either part of this tension, we lose the cross. The cross involved the Father's sovereign choice to send His Son; it was the Father's will to crush Him. At the same time, Jesus chose to submit to His Father's will and to drink the cup He gave Him. If either the sovereignty of God or the necessity of believing and obeying God is explained away, we lose the cross which included both elements. So...yes. We choose to believe. And we cannot believe without the intervention of God to create the ability to have faith in Him and to believe. We had a discussion about this very topic at our women's Bible study yesterday. Some women were really troubled by the idea that people couldn't, on their own, choose...and it seemed to bother them that the implication that followed was that our sharing the gospel and inviting people to receive Christ doesn't actually contribute to their salvation. If our sharing doesn't trigger decisions, then what does cause people to get saved? I love 1 Peter 1:23:
God's word is living and powerful; God's Spirit works through His word to generate spiritual life, and our "job" is to faithfully share the gospel as it's taught in God's word. Paul's prayer in Colossians 4:2-4 summarizes this idea:
Colleen | ||
| Capross Registered user Username: Capross Post Number: 106 Registered: 7-2012 |
Ric Colleen You totaly misunderstood. Faith is not a reward. It is a fullfillment. We can only choose to believe. Only God can supply faith. | ||
| Capross Registered user Username: Capross Post Number: 111 Registered: 7-2012 |
Colleen I reread your post. You are spot on. I should learn to read more thouroughly. My Bad Cap | ||
| Capross Registered user Username: Capross Post Number: 112 Registered: 7-2012 |
Ric Reread my post. I see where you got that. Poor choice of words on my part. It does still remain however. That we choose to believe and God gives the faith. For it is by grace you have been saved Through faith and that not of yourself. It is the gift of God........ | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 3476 Registered: 7-2007 |
Xenonlion, I heard a story about a man who was walking a tightrope over a precipice, while a crowd watched. He asked the crowd if they believed he could push a wheelbarrow along the tightrope. They said yes. He then asked them if anyone was willing to RIDE in the wheelbarrow as he pushed it across. There were no takers. Faith is getting INTO the wheelbarrow that Jesus is pushing across (trusting Him to save you completely instead of relying on our own works.) When we were Adventists, we were brainwashed into believing that we had to do something to help keep ourselves saved, so it's very difficult for us to trust Him completely. One thing I've discovered recently that's been helping me with my legalism issues is a book called "Eternal Security," by Charles Stanley. | ||
| Mjcmcook Registered user Username: Mjcmcook Post Number: 1610 Registered: 2-2011  |
Asurprsie~ A second your opinion regarding the book by Pastor Charles Stanley~ Eternal Security~! IMO Pastor Stanley is trustworthy and Bibically correct. ~mj~ | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2139 Registered: 7-2004 |
Cap, I would use a slightly different choice of words. God provides the faith. We act in response to that faith. | ||
| Capross Registered user Username: Capross Post Number: 113 Registered: 7-2012 |
Ric I can see your point. I am speaking from personal experience here so it may be different for others. I struggled with belief for a long time. I asked God to give me the faith I need. He set a number of events in my life. As an event would approach I could choose to either believe He would get me through or not. As I chose to believe He never failed to work things out so that they were OK. Over the course or time I came to trust Him totally. This trust has been the gift. Let me give an example. Several years ago on the eve before thanksgiving I was driving home. It was raining and traffic was varying between 70mph and dead stop. During one of the instances of dead stop a vehicle came up at a great spead hit my car. It spun my car around 90 degrees. I pick up much of his momentum and was headed across a wide shoulder toward a concrete jersey wall. In the split second of time before my impact into the concrete I remember thinking "I am going to die here". The fear of my death did not come. In that split second God showed me that I can be secure knowing where I will be forever. This was a huge faith boost to me. And I believe God gave it to me. I didn't earn it. I don't deserve and still He let me know. This is just one of the ways God has strengthened my faith. These days when I see something in His word I know that it is absolutley true. I can't help but love a God who would do that for me. The most undeserving member of His creation. God Bless you Rick Cap | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2140 Registered: 7-2004 |
Cap, I appreciate the clarification with your personal experiences. There are many times in our lives that we have the opportunity to act on the faith that God has given us or to cling to our doubts. We can trust in God or we can rely on ourselves. And certainly being able to look back and see how our trust in God has been correct, strengthens our faith What I find really amazing about God is that there are times that we didn't trust Him as we should, yet He still blesses us in the ways He has promised. And in these cases we learn that we really could have trusted God. And He still builds our faith. (Obviously learning that we can trust Him and acting on that trust is His goal. I'm simply pointing out that God often uses our failures to grow our faith in Him just as much as He uses the times we exhibit great trust. He is always the One at work growing our faith.) We serve an amazing God. | ||
| Xenonlion Registered user Username: Xenonlion Post Number: 7 Registered: 11-2014 |
I asked because I was confused. In Bible class at my academy, the teacher taught us an equation of faith. It was like this: Reason + sensed evidence = Knowing reality beyond our senses I always feel weird in my Bible class. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2141 Registered: 7-2004 |
You feel weird for good reason. This is a denial of the Bible or a perversion of the Bible class. Notice that central to all of the explanation above was God. But God is completely missing from this definition of faith you are being taught. Reason and evidence are not bad things, Evangelical Christians have long used these as tools (even Paul used reason). But they aren't the "source" of godly faith. The cross is foolishness, we don't arrive at faith in Jesus Christ of the Bible through wisdom and reason. In fact, these will lead us away from the true Gospel, unless they are rooted in Spirit and Word. This is why I believe one of the worst Bible study questions that can be asked is "why do you think God said... or did....". I need to let Scripture tell me why, if God has chosen to reveal why, not seek to use the wisdom of man to define God. | ||
| Xenonlion Registered user Username: Xenonlion Post Number: 10 Registered: 11-2014 |
We get asked "Why do you think God...." so much in class. | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2143 Registered: 7-2004 |
There is a reason for making Bible study focused on "Why do you think God..." It is easy to "program" people with reasonable sounding answers. If you were raised SDA, you have heard the answers to these "why" questions all of your life. So when you fill in the "why" from your own mind (but really from what you have been taught and heard around you for years) it seems like you are just finding answers straight from the Bible when in fact it is just the opposite, you are placing your own (or your church's) answers into Scripture. | ||
| Xenonlion Registered user Username: Xenonlion Post Number: 11 Registered: 11-2014 |
That's true. Putting your own answers into Scripture is seen a lot in Adventism actually. Also, I have faith and trust in God without going through equations or trying to muster it up by my own power. I trust Him and have faith in Him because He is God and he has given me faith. I have faith that I will be okay I'd my family and friends reject me. I'm not even worried about Ebola because I know that I am secure in Christ and would get to be with Him forever if I died. In the past, as an Adventist, I would not be able to say that. You couldn't be sure that you were saved. You could only hope that you're saved. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 3094 Registered: 5-2007  |
In our education system this is done constantly therefore it goes unnoticed within the context of unbiased bible study. We have been and are programed to think this way. When someone is constantly asked "what do you think..." instead of "what are the facts" or "what is the truth" then they don't understand the concept of "what does God say" outside of our own limited powers of reasoning. We are becoming a nation of idiots. Fearless Phil | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2147 Registered: 7-2004 |
A Lutheran pastor, with no prior exposure to SDAism, completed some research and wrote a paper on SDAism for a District Pastoral Conference. He had a number of amazing insights given his limited exposure. Among his conclusions,
In his brief study of SDAism, he concluded that in SDAism faith has been redefined to mean obedience. He also had an interesting comment about the Greek "faith of Jesus" in Rev 14, insisting that SDAs understand it incorrectly because they base their understanding on the English of the KJV instead of the original Greek (and other translations). Perhaps someone with more skills in Greek can tackle the implications of an objective genitive vs a possessive genitive, and what that means in regards to "faith" as discussed in this passage. | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 3095 Registered: 5-2007 |
Having no skill of my own in biblical Greek I must trust the work of translators and those who explain the Greek meaning of bible translations that I have learned to trust. I would never believe an Adventist theologian when they contradict the accepted meaning of a bible passage unless they could first show why they are right based solely upon what the biblical languages actually mean. As Res said on another thread, "the burden of proof" is on them. Fearless Phil | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 364 Registered: 4-2014 |
Ric B and PhilHarris; Maybe you guys are jumping the gun here. Maybe the "7 spots of blood" really could have meant the seven years between 1844 and 1851. Adventists had seven years to get their act together, and obviously didn't, since Christ never returned in 1851. So even when they are wrong, they are right. Who am I to judge? | ||
| Ric_b Registered user Username: Ric_b Post Number: 2152 Registered: 7-2004 |
Did your tongue hurt your cheek Res? | ||
| Philharris Registered user Username: Philharris Post Number: 3098 Registered: 5-2007 |
Did Ellen White say that or was it just Joseph Bates? | ||
| Resjudicata Registered user Username: Resjudicata Post Number: 365 Registered: 4-2014 |
Phil, I don't think Ellen White said it, although she kept pretty quiet about it, right up until the end when it was another obvious mistranslation...... And THEN she denounced it. | ||
| Xenonlion Registered user Username: Xenonlion Post Number: 12 Registered: 11-2014 |
Ric, What the pastor said there in his paper is so true though. What I'm taught in class is a behavior modification thing. Being a good person doesn't save you though. We don't even help save ourselves. Our salvation is totally in Christ. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 14970 Registered: 12-2003 |
Crazy-making! Aack! Xenonlion, I'm so glad you are learning these things from the Bible now, in academy. As disorienting as it is to hear your Bible teacher saying those unbiblical formulas, God is teaching you what's wrong with them and anchoring you in His Word. And He has provided this community of brothers and sisters who understand what you're facing to talk and encourage you! He is faithful. Colleen |
