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Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2377
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 9:05 pm: |     |
Honestwitness,
Here are a few quotes from Ellen G. White on the subject:
quote:"I saw a throne, and on it sat the Father and the Son. I gazed on Jesus' countenance and admired His lovely person. The Father's person I could not behold, for a cloud of glorious light covered Him. I asked Jesus if His Father had a form like Himself. He said He had, but I could not behold it, for said He, 'If you should once behold the glory of His person, you would cease to exist.' Before the throne I saw the Advent people--the church and the world. I saw two companies, one bowed down before the throne, deeply interested, while the other stood uninterested and careless. Those who were bowed before the throne would offer up their prayers and look to Jesus; then He would look to His Father, and appear to be pleading with Him. A light would come from the Father to the Son and from the Son to the praying company. Then I saw an exceeding bright light come from the Father to the Son, and from the Son it waved over the people before the throne. [...]" (Early Writings of Ellen G. White, page 54, paragraph 2.)
"[...] The Father is all the fullness of the Godhead bodily, and is invisible to mortal sight." (Evangelism, page 614, paragraph 2.)
"I had often been shown the lovely Jesus, that he is a person. I had asked him if his Father was a person, and had a form like himself. Said Jesus, 'I am in the express image of my Father's person.' I had often seen that the spiritual view took away the glory of heaven, and that in many minds the throne of David, and the lovely person of Jesus had been burned up by the fire of spiritual interpretation." (Ellen G. White, Life Sketches of James White and Ellen G. White (1888 edition), page 230, paragraph 3. Emphasis in original.)
"We have been brought together as a school, and we need to realize that the Holy Spirit, who is as much a person as God is a person, is walking through these grounds, that the Lord God is our keeper, and helper. He hears every word we utter and knows every thought of the mind.--Ms 66, 1899, p. 4. (Talk, April 15, 1899)." (Manuscript Releases, Volume Seven, page 299, paragraph 2.)
If you want to look into this more, the Ellen G. White Estate has a book on their website entitled The Ellen G. White Writings, by Arthur L. White (Ellen White's grandson), which was published in 1973 by Review and Herald. Here is a link to the section about the Trinity and God having a body, where Arthur admits that Ellen White fought against the doctrine of the Trinity: http://www.whiteestate.org/books/egww/EGWWc05.html#sth14
Here are a few more brief Ellen White quotes from the above book:
quote:In the beginning, man was created in the likeness of God, not only in character, but in form and feature.—The Great Controversy, pp. 644, 645.
God is a being, and man was made in His image. After God created man in His image, the form was perfect.—Manuscript 117, 1898.
Man was to bear God's image, both in outward resemblance and in character. Christ alone is “the express image” of the Father; but man was formed in the likeness of God.—Patriarchs and Prophets, p. 45.
When Adam came from the Creator's hand, he bore, in his physical, mental, and spiritual nature, a likeness to his Maker. “God created man in His own image.”—Education, p. 15. They bore in outward resemblance the likeness of their Maker.—Ibid., p.
20.
Also, here is a quote from the Adventist Review, in 1981 in a special issue about the SDA's Fundamental Beliefs:
quote:"Jesus' statement to the woman at the well of Sychar that 'God is a Spirit' (chap. 4:24) was not intended to indicate that God is without form or center of being or activity. Christ' s statement has to do with power and quality rather than essence of being. The nature of the infinite God is far beyond that of finite humans and not to be confused with our nature. He is supernatural and exalted, beyond our ability to conceive. He exists on a plane, or dimension, that is incom- prehensible to us.
"Yet the Hebrew concept of spirit is more concrete than abstract. God occupies space even though He is unseeable as far as humans are concerned. We were formed in His image (Gen. 1:27), indicating that He has a specific form. Throughout the Bible God is dealt with as a person. Though doubtless the terms used in Scripture to describe Him are selected because they will be easily comprehended by human beings, they picture Him as a person. He speaks, hears, sees, and writes. [...]" (http://www.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH1981-31/index.djvu?djvuopts&page=5)
And here is a quotation from the current (2005 edition) official SDA belief book, Seventh-day Adventists Believe: An exposition of the fundamental beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist Church, page 98:
quote:"It is frequently suggested that human moral and spiritual dimensions reveal something about God's moral and spiritual nature. But since the Bible teaches that man comprises an indivisible unity of body, mind, and soul, man's physical features must also, in some way, reflect God's image. But isn't God a spirit? How could a spirit being be associated with any form or shape?
"A brief study of the angels reveals that they, like God, are spiritual beings (Heb. 1:7, 14). Yet they always appear in human form (Gen. 18:1-19:22; Dan. 9:21; Luke 1:11-38; Acts 12:5-10). Could it be that a spiritual being may have a 'spiritual body' with a form and features (cf. 1 Cor. 15:44)?
"The Bible indicates that some people have seen parts of God's person. Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and the seventy elders saw His feet (Ex. 24:9-11). Although He refused to show His face, after covering Moses with His hands God revealed His back to him as He passed by (Ex. 33:20-23). God appeared to Daniel in a judgment-scene vision as the Ancient of Days seated on a throne (Dan. 7:9, 10). Christ is described as 'the image of the invisible God' (Col. 1:15) and 'the express image of His person' (Heb. 1:3). These passages seem to indicate that God is a personal being and has a personal form. This should come as no surprise, for man was created in the image of God."
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on February 29, 2008) |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2378
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, February 29, 2008 - 9:43 pm: | |
Mommamayi,
Here is a link to an older version of the "eternal generation" Theopedia article that has some additional insights: http://www.theopedia.com/index.php?title=Eternal_generation_of_the_Son&oldid=37011
Also, I probably should have linked to this version of the "Perichoresis" article instead of the one I linked to before, since I'm not sure about all of the stuff under "Perichoresis in application" in the version I linked to in my other post.
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on February 29, 2008) |
Dane
Registered user
Username: Dane
Post Number: 213
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 5:18 am: | |
From the EGW quotes above, I would guess that she was influenced by the Mormon view of God.
Dane |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 2379
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 6:07 am: | |
Honestwitness,
You said “Before joining Adventism, I had had a full 39 years of Evangelical Protestant upbringing and very good Bible teaching.”
This fascinates me, further, I think it is important, you say had “very good Bible teaching” you say it “insulated you”.
It is very obvious to me that your “very good Bible teachings” did not insulate you from being sucked into a cult.
Can you explain this, how and why you were sucked into a cult in spite of 39 years of “very good Bible teaching”?
There is just no way that this can be made to sound other than accusatory but it is not accusatory, I think it is important to know how people are sucked into a cult, however I would not want to open you up to ridicule in doing so.
I will explain why this captures my interest.
As you know from my writing on this forum, it was going on six years ago that I first encountered Adventism.
I experienced a very strange “magnetic” sort of “pull” toward Adventism that I have not been able to explain, this is why I want to probe into you, who, in spite of “very good Bible teaching” were in fact and in spite of a basic Bible training pulled into Adventism.
How did 39 years of Bible background fail you? Is it just simply that you were pulled into it through your husband?
Have you analyzed it yet to some satisfactory answer?
As I have just stated, shortly after becoming involved with Adventist, and I am not free to say just how right now, so lets just say I did become involved with them.
I detected a strange sort of magnetic pull in my spirit toward that, it was not a sort of weak thing, but a very strong thing that I had to resist, like a strange and powerful magnet had been moved into close proximity with my soul.
I resisted it and plunged myself into the study of the word, I began questioning and searching for answers, I didn’t question them, I asked questions of myself and sought Bible answers to those questions, I went beyond my basic Bible training into the theology of the Bible, I examined every statement made by Adventist and I quickly found that my Bible training that I had received in over thirty years was not enough, I had to go deeper.
I think there is a spiritual danger in Adventism that a surface Bible training and commitment cannot protect us from.
Let me try to put it this way “ A person who is not devoted to the God’s word, who hasn’t applied himself/herself to prayer and study of his Word” has not much protection against this “pull” that I think I experienced.
I no longer feel that pull at all when I am around them, but rather a sort of repulsion to it, not toward the person, but just being fully aware at all times that there is no spiritual connection between me and them or very little, put it this way, they are not trustworthy to share Christ as I share him with you folk.
You have already said you attend Adventist church with your husband, so what “insulates” you now from this?
What do you think, do you think that I was wrong and in fact there is no “Strange magnetic type of pull” to Adventism?
In fact I would like input from anyone on this question, not that you will be able to convince me that this experience was all in my imagination.
Corinthians I 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
Corinthians I 10:21 You cannot drink the cup of the Lord and the cup of demons; you cannot partake of the Lord's table and of the table of demons.
Corinthians I 10:22 Or do we provoke the Lord to jealousy? Are we stronger than He?
I tell you what I think, I think we better be careful of provoking the Lord to jealousy or of thinking that we are strong enough to overcome what he says to stay away from. IMHO.
Do I think that 1 Cor. 10:12 means that we can lose our salvation? No, but it can lead to 16 years of hell right here on earth.
River |
Dane
Registered user
Username: Dane
Post Number: 214
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 9:57 am: | |
River and all,
I don't have any idea what Honest Witness experienced in Bible teaching before SDA, but I do have some thoughts on what you bring up.
I have observed for many years that there has been a general neglect of solid teaching of doctrine among Evangelical churches, and I think its getting worse.
The Bible can be used in the pulpit every Sunday and doctrine is not necessarily taught. Unless the congregation and the individual is solidly grounded in the essential doctrines, they will be in danger of being deceived. I get the impression that a lot of Christians cannot defend what they think they believe. For example, how many do you know that can clearly explain the Trinity, or the full deity of Christ, or what it really means to be "under grace"? The best way to understand and really live sound doctrine is to have good, deep teaching by the preacher. Sometimes I wonder how many preachers today understand sound doctrine themselves.
SDA theology is complex and is often a mixture of truth and error that appears to be complete truth. We need to remember how the SDA's even partially fooled Walter Martin.
We need to always be on guard, and continually pray for protection against wolves in sheeps clothing.
Dane |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 7686
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 11:25 am: | |
Wow! First, Jeremy—thank you so much for your quotes. I knew I had been taught all through SDA school that we were created in God's image physically and mentally. I couldn't put my finger on specific "proof" of this teaching, but I remember learning that creativity, abstract thinking, and ALSO our physical beings were in God's image. Never, though, did I learn that "God is Spirit" and that I was created in His image spiritually.
I am so glad you quoted the passage from the Adventist Review above as late as 1981. Adventists most definitely teach that God is physical. I believe this underlying conviction that God is somehow an eternal physical being is part of the "package" that makes Jesus far more human than divine in Adventist understanding.
They can say whatever they like about Jesus being eternal God—but when their eternal God is physical, they have a different God. Indeed, how could they ever conceive of the persons of the Trinity each being ALL of God when they understand Jesus and God to have physical bodies and the Holy Spirit to be some sort of "personal" force or power? They're not intrinsically of the same substance at all!
Further, in Adventist thinking, Jesus is "part human", and the Father is all God. So Jesus' body is human, while God's body isn't, although Jesus, like us, is in the Father's image. The Holy Spirit? Who knows? Is He an "emanation" from the Father and Jesus? Many early SDAs thought so. Today Adventist say the HS is God, but they perceive and understand Him to be a power or force.
River, your post is so insightful and helpful. I'm fascinated that you found such a magnetic pull toward SDA teaching—and I'm not surprised. I'm also not surprised that you feel a repulsion now that you have spent the last 5+ years doing intensive Scripture research to understand Adventism.
I still believe, River, that God gave you your very clear understanding of the dark spirit of Adventism partly to help us see clearly what we have been part of, and to help us understand that leaving isn't just a matter of correcting what we learned. We are engaged in leaving an organization that has a spirit that blinds and holds us. If we don't recognize that as Adventists we have/had a spiritual claim on us, we are vulnerable to continuing confusion and deception.
We have to ask God to replace the very real spirit of Adventism with the Holy Spirit in our hearts and to protect others from being sucked in—and to awaken those inside to be able to perceive the gospel of the Lord Jesus.
Adventists' foundational problem is that they have a "different Trinity" and a "different Jesus". This unarticulated fact leads them to embrace the unbiblical doctrine that man has no spirit other than breath, and thus they identify Jesus as also having no spirit other than breath, and thus the nature of humanity, the nature of Jesus, the nature of sin and salvation are all skewed.
The danger of Adventism is subtle and incredibly profound.
Colleen |
Mwh
Registered user
Username: Mwh
Post Number: 785
Registered: 4-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 11:43 am: | |
mommamayi,
I know that Cheryl Schatz from MM Outreach is in the process of making a DVD series on the Trinity, I think it will be out in the first half of this year.
In His grace,
Martin |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 2379
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 12:41 pm: | |
Colleen,
Another changed definition in Adventism is when they use orthodox phrases like "one substance" or "same substance." When the Adventists use such a phrase, they don't at all mean the orthodox definition that God is actually one indivisible substance/essence/being. Instead, usually all they mean is that their three "Divine Beings" (gods) all have the same type of substance (just meaning that they're all divine, basically)--just like three human beings are all of the same human "substance." The same is true when they speak of "essence" or "nature." In fact, SDA Andrews Seminary professor Dr. Jerry Moon basically defines "nature" as the "divine beings" having the same "genetic make-up"--like how different members of a human family have the same "genetic make-up."
Once again, it's an issue where Adventism says the right words, but they have their own private, totally different, heretical meanings for those words!
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on March 01, 2008) |
Asurprise
Registered user
Username: Asurprise
Post Number: 234
Registered: 7-2007
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 1:03 pm: | |
I think a lot of Christians are "Adventists waiting to happen." If they don't understand the difference between the covenants, especially. |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 4885
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 2:02 pm: | |
I see some adventists going to the different churches forums on CARM and asking leading questions about the 10 C. Thank God there are people on those forums that know what the covenants are because those SDAs really try to confuse them.
I have not seen an SDA on the apologetics forum, yet.
Diana |
Honestwitness
Registered user
Username: Honestwitness
Post Number: 484
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2008 - 9:15 pm: | |
River, I love you for asking such pointed queations about my being "sucked into" Adventism. Yes, I have thought about this a lot.
I believe the Lord wanted me to go through the experience of Adventism so He can better use me to refute, warn, and convince others to either get out or stay out of it.
I believe He knew that it would take something with as strong a pull as the promise of a good husband, after my disasterous first marriage, to get me to let down my guard enough to suppress those twinges of doubt that cropped up right from the beginning. (Is that a run on sentence?)
I believe He has had me in training all my life for a higher purpose than I would ever have envisioned as a young woman. This forum and the doctrinal training I have received through Life Assurance Ministries and other Former SDA websites has been preparing me to witness to people who are much more of a challenge than your average unsaved person.
Just today, I received an email from a dear Adventist friend who is just beginning to question what she was always taught in Adventism. I had shared just a little bit with her, during a recent conversation we had in person, that I now consider myself a former Adventist. I told her very briefly why I don't believe the investigative judgement is scriptural. I was amazed that she was open to discussing this further.
In her email today, she admitted she is re-evaluating everything about Adventism that she once took for granted. I am so honored for the Lord to use me in whatever small way He may choose to use me to help her through that process.
I believe that, as I learn more of how to articulate my own testimony in a loving, respectful way, the Lord will give me more opportunities to witness to questioning Adventists. I would be thrilled to be used by him in that way.
I also believe He will use my testimony to challenge my new friends in my Presbyterian church to deeper Bible study on key doctrines. In fact, He is already doing that. One of my new friends is a former university professor who is also a very good Bible teacher. She has expressed an openness to my suggestion that we should have a Sunday School class on apologetics, to keep others like me from getting "sucked in" to cultic teachings.
Honestwitness |
River
Registered user
Username: River
Post Number: 2386
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 4:34 am: | |
Honestwitness,
Thank you for answering what would have seemed such painful and personal questions.
I felt your situation was just right to try to answer some nagging questions I have had hanging around for some time.
Here is what I believe, which I speak for the benefit of others, I may change my mind later, I don’t want to become set “In concrete” as it were, but want to remain teachable.
I don’t believe God desires us to fail in order to become useful to him, however he uses our own failures for our later benefit in our ministry to others. God uses everything and waste nothing; I am in agreement with Colleen on that, he turns our own failures into victory for us in that we are blessed in maturity through ministering to others.
What love he has for us to turn even our failures to victory and blessing.
I believe he will bless you and is blessing you as you reach out to others.
Right now I am trying to look hard and factual at the dangers of evangelical falling into a cultic religion such as Adventism, I believe this magnetic pull of a demonic nature is real and tangible.
In the past I have had a hard time believing that an evangelical with basic Bible training could fall into this trap, but now I am changing my mind.
There is this scripture : Corinthians I 10:12 Therefore let him who thinks he stands take heed lest he fall.
I believe there is a place in the evangelical for warnings (classes and preaching) against falling into heresy (being sucked in).
This is where I am at right now, I continue to learn and to evolve so to speak, I go through what I wrote last year and see many cases where I have changed toward certain points, so all I can say is this is where I am at right now on it.
Many here have taken measures as we had opportunity to warn those evangelical pastors around us, has my own Pastor taken what he has been given to heart? I don’t know. I have tried to make him aware of the heresy in Adventism, we can’t demand of Pastors to take all their time and attention to just our “thing” because good Pastors are usually very busy men or women whatever the case may be, it is certainly a full time job to Pastor a church.
I wish I could get more of my own Pastors time since he is the liaison for seven other churches in this surrounding area and he would give it to me if I ask him, but I have to take the load he carries into consideration.
Still it is something to commit to prayer, not only to reach others in Adventism but to reach those who might be subject to falling into this trap.
Thank you again for responding in such a graceful manner. May you be blessed in your going out and coming in.
River |
Mommamayi
Registered user
Username: Mommamayi
Post Number: 204
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2008 - 10:45 am: | |
Martin,
Thanks for the additional links, and you too Jeremy. I decided to start with the study Chris did and am almost done with that.
~Mommamayi |
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