| Author | Message | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2373 Registered: 10-2004  |
The above words are a direct quote from one of Seventh-day Adventism's top scholars, theologian/professor/author Dr. Norman R. Gulley, Research Professor of Systematic Theology at Southern Adventist University. The following is just one short quotation from a fairly lengthy polytheistic article of his that I found awhile back:
You can click here to read the whole article--which is just another demonstration of the gross polytheism of Adventism. This article was published in the Journal of the Adventist Theological Society, which, according to their website, "is sent to every member of the Evangelical Theological Society where it is read by nearly 2000 non-Adventist evangelical scholars." How can these nearly 2,000 Evangelical scholars not see a problem with these articles (there are plenty more where that one came from) that so blatanty teach against the orthodox doctrine of the Trinity?? My hopefully-soon-to-be-completed website will contain about 200 or more quotations from authentic SDA sources (including Ellen G. White's writings), from every "faction" or "flavor" of Adventism, proving that Adventism does not teach the Trinity. Period. (It doesn't matter one whit what terms they use, all that matters is their definitions for those terms.) (By the way, just by taking a step back from dealing with Adventism the last couple of months, and then taking a look at it again, it seems more shockingly evil to me than ever before.) Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 27, 2008) | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 7657 Registered: 12-2003  |
Jeremy, thank you for sharing this quote. I have been thinking about your website the last couple of days, and I for one am eager to peruse it when you are done. You are dealing with the core, persistent problem of Adventism--the very issue that confuses evangelicals and Adventists alike. Adventists talk a "good talk"—they can maneuver their way around their revealing statements if they feel cornered, and the Christian world has, in general, failed to see that Adventism truly does not teach the One True God. It is not an accident that as people leave Adventism and find freedom in Christ, they are shocked and filled with awe when they discover that the Lord Jesus is sovereign, powerful, innately (as opposed to having proven to be) sinless, our Substitute in every sense of the word. This astonishing discovery is the result of having been taught confusion, of having been taught that Jesus had to overcome temptation through the external help of the Holy Spirit, that Jesus had no advantage we don't have, that Jesus was less than the Father and weaker than the Father. Jeremy, thank you for this research you're doing. I know your concern with this subject has been costly to you in many ways. Colleen | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 2359 Registered: 9-2006  |
Seems to me that guy is two can's short of a six pack. | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 249 Registered: 6-2007 |
Yes Colleen I have said it here before, this understanding of the trinity has been the most incredible, awesome, life changing event I have ever experienced. It has completely changed me. This past Christmas was incredible for me. For the first time in my life understanding who Jesus was. Seeing the baby in the manger as the Eternal Father. Seeing the baby as the King of all Kings, the creator of all, the Lion of Judah. It has changed my life. Looking to Jesus as my substitute, not my example of following the letter of the law without sin. Realizing he willingly became that substitute out of love for me - not to show me how to be perfect. Realizing that there are not three levels of the trinity. God in first place as most powerful, Jesus in second place as less powerful, and the Holy Spirit in third place barely worthy of mention. I have for the first time in my life prayed directly to the Holy Spirit and I do it all the time. Never entered my mind to do that as an adventist. I can not truly put into words what this truth has meant to me. Laurie | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 7665 Registered: 12-2003 |
Laurie, I totally relate to your post. Like you, I cannot put into words what the truth about Jesus has meant to me. I loved your sentence, "There are not three levels of the Trinity." Yes. That totally summarizes my Adventist sense of the Triune God--one grand poo-bah, one son reduced to humanity (poor thing) with all his god-ness laid aside, and one...well, what was that Holy Spirit, anyway? Yet I blithely parroted the party line: one God, three Person, Jesus is God...I had no idea what any of that really meant. At the very least I understood each Person to be part of God--like one-third, one-third, one-third. I never understood that when I heard that Jesus was God, that meant that ALL of the Triune God's characteristics and qualities and power resided in Him and in each of the others as well. It is a myth that the early Arianism has been "undone". The fact that all of us learned that there were "levels" of authority or power or greatness within the Trinity reveals that although the words changed, the underlying anti-trinitarianism was never corrected. Colleen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 655 Registered: 3-2005 |
Jeremy: 2006? Quite shocking. It's so interesting that the idea of a making Yahweh, Elohim, pluralistic is wrapped up in Christian-ese. This is a very nice example, a cross-section, of Adventism as a whole; of showing how Christian words have completely different definitions. It was only the beginning and ending of the article that made it crystal clear (at least to me). The rest was much harder to discern...even impossible at times. Laurie: The Truth of the Trinity is SO huge! What a difference to realize WHO Jesus is, and that the Holy Spirit is a HE and not an "it"! Wow! What Jesus did on the Cross... We just miss the boat if we don't know WHO He is! That's the long and the short of it. In Christ, Patria | ||
| Mommamayi Registered user Username: Mommamayi Post Number: 190 Registered: 12-2007  |
Any reading recommendations on how to understand the truth about the trinity topic better? It is still a weak point of mine, being newly "out". ~mommamayi | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 364 Registered: 5-2007  |
Can anyone explain in concise words, What is the cause and effect between the two concepts.? I do not grasp what the problem is. | ||
| Laurie Registered user Username: Laurie Post Number: 253 Registered: 6-2007 |
Jim The fact that Jesus could not have sinned was life changing for me. As an adventist I was taught Jesus could have sinned, Jesus had no advantage that I do not have access to in living a sinless life, Jesus came here to be an example to us of how to keep the law perfectly without sinning, Jesus gave up his divinity in coming to earth. Now, if you ask an adventist about this they will deny that they believe what I just said, but they do and they don't even know it. This theory of Jesus being capable of sinning is the basis for their doctrinal teaching of the great controversy and the investigative judgement. EGW teaches through the great controversy that the entire universe and all the sinless inhabitants on other worlds watched on the edge of their seats to see if Jesus could do it. Could he live a life without sin? It is the absurd basis for entire teaching. It is also the basis for the IJ. EGW states clearly in the Great Controversy Chapter 39: "When He leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God with an intercessor" "In that time of trial, every soul must stand for himself before God." "Now, while our great High Priest is making the atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ". "He had kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble". These are directly from The Great Controversy and they are pure Blasphemy! Compare to Hebrews 7:25 Therefore he is able to save completely those who come to God through him, because he always lives to intercede for them. He ALWAYS lives to intercede for us! Always! Romans 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood. Atonement was complete at the cross period! The IJ doctrine actually uses the words "second phase of Christ's atoning ministry." Blasphemy. Hebrews 10:12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God, Compare Hebrews 10:12 with EGW: "Now, while our great High Priest is making the atonement for us, we should seek to become perfect in Christ". To teach that Jesus is making atonement for us right now is blasphemy! These two teachings (GC and IJ) could not stand without the teaching that Jesus could have sinned. EGW also says, as I stated above, that we must be found keeping the commandments with NO sin in us to survive. Do you know anyone who has NO sin in them? Sorry if I sound a little riled up here, but the IJ and GC doctrines make me furious. It is false, evil, blasphemy. And it needs to be exposed. Laurie | ||
| Marysroses Registered user Username: Marysroses Post Number: 187 Registered: 4-2007 |
I see the problem this way Jim. If Jesus is not truly, fully God, then He cannot be what He says that He is, and any theology developing out of a mistaken idea of the true nature of God, will inevitably fall into error. Adventists teach the Trinity badly, while professing to believe the doctrine in the same way Christians historically believe it. I personally have heard everything from outright polytheism (Three distinct Gods who cooperate) to modalism (One God, who is one person with three roles) in adventist sermons and sabbath school teaching. This leaves the average Adventist, imho, with a muddled idea of the Trinity. From the best I can tell, official Adventist teaching purports to be Trinitarian, while in actuallity is more Tritheism. (Three Gods united in love and purpose). Maybe thats not quite polytheism, but its a fine distinction to my way of thinking. The Christian teaching of the Trinity is that there is One God, one in nature, and that this One God exists as three distinct persons, who are one in being. This means Jesus is truly God. Not subordinate to the Father, not less than the Father, or created by the Father. This means the Holy Spirit is God. Not just the spirit of Jesus, or an impersonal force. The practical implications of this, is that Jesus is God, he can fulfill the old covenant and do away with it, establishing the new. Jesus is God, when He says that He will save us, He has the authority and ability to do just as He promises. There is no conflict or tension between the justice of the Father and the gift of the Son. They are one God, one in being. The Holy Spirit is God, and is God dwelling in us, not just a 'make do' substitute until Jesus comes again. Understanding the Trinity is an antidote to a lot of Adventist doctrines. If Jesus is truly, fully God, how could he have been unconscious after he died on the cross? If Jesus is truly, fully God, how could he have possibly sinned? (EGW thinks that he could have sinned). Mary's little baby was God himself. Thats the mystery of the incarnation. There was never a time after the incarnation when that was not true- Jesus is God, and also truly human as well, so God was born, lived a human life, and died on the cross, and rose again. Pondering on these things gives perspective to all the core teachings of Christianity. Salvation, redemption, the covenants, eternal life, everything. Thats why its so important to have a well formed idea of the Trinity. Not that we can ever perfectly understand how that One God can exist in three persons. Hope this hasn't been too rambling.... God Bless, MarysRoses | ||
| Asurprise Registered user Username: Asurprise Post Number: 228 Registered: 7-2007 |
The only thing that made me nervous when I read "The Great Controversy" when I was an Adventist, was "the time of Jacob's trouble." Otherwise, I thought the end time events as portrayed by Ellen White sounded exciting and adventuresome  I tried to balance Ellen White's strong statements about righteousness with the Bible, and came up with a sort of "amalgamation" where I thought Ellen White spoke metaphorically and I thought the Bible didn't quite say what it looked like it was saying. I'd just read through those Bible passages that seemed to disagree with Ellen White, quickly. Now that I've found that she's a totally false prophet, I can let the Bible say what it says. It's a wonderful sense of relief to rest in Jesus' finished work and a life of adventure to "walk in the Spirit" | ||
| River Registered user Username: River Post Number: 2372 Registered: 9-2006 |
I think Gully has been livin off'en turnips too! | ||
| Jim02 Registered user Username: Jim02 Post Number: 367 Registered: 5-2007 |
MarysRoses, Good to hear from you ! Thank You for your explaination. "Understanding the Trinity is an antidote to a lot of Adventist doctrines. If Jesus is truly, fully God, how could he have been unconscious after he died on the cross? If Jesus is truly, fully God, how could he have possibly sinned? (EGW thinks that he could have sinned)." Good point ! The thing is , this is a multi-spoke subject that first requires an outline to even begin to understand the questions. Gaining an understanding of the questions also means seeing the cause and effects out in front. I see this topic coming up a lot, and am only now gaining the picture of what is being talked about and why. What was the 40 days in the wilderness all about? | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 7680 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jim, I was stunned a few years ago when I studied the Gospels in women's Bible study with Elizabeth Inrig and we studied the wilderness temptation. First, the Bible says the Holy Spirit led Jesus into the wilderness to be tempted. He didn't just go into the wilderness and encounter temptation. The Holy Spirit let Him there to be tempted. He met Satan, who had a claim on the world. Jesus represented the coming end to Satan's rule. As Wayne Grudem says, Jesus as a man fully experienced the agony of temptation. But because He was also fully God and God cannot sin, we have to conclude that He couldn't have actually sinned. But Jesus as a man didn't face His temptations thinking, "No big deal; I can't sin anyway." He fully experienced temptation—at exactly the level of His greatest vulnerability: His own mission. He was tempted to use His power to secure a following by meeting all their felt needs; He could turn stones into bread, and people would follow. He could have assumed "control" of the nations by acknowledging Satan's position. He could have proven His God-ness by casting Himself off the temple and not dying--and Satan presented all these temptations by using The Bible as His 'hook'. (Why are we surprised that Adventism claim the Bible as their "only authority"?) Jesus defeated Satan at every turn by using the sword of the Spirit—the word of God properly understood and applied. Jesus used the Bible to defeat temptation; Satan misused the Bible to encourage sin, But here's the part that took my breath away. In the bigger picture, the purpose of Jesus' victory over the devil's temptation was that He was the Perfect Israel. He did what the nation of Israel had not been able to do during their 40 years in the wilderness. They had not maintained faith in God, and they had succumbed to discouragement, whining, demandingness, and rebellion. Jesus redeemed their sin and took onto Himself the identity of Israel, and He accomplished and fulfilled what His nation had not been able to do. Just as Jesus fulfilled all that had been written in the law, the prophets, and the Psalms, He fulfilled the purpose and the calling of the nation of Israel. He redeemed and accomplished what Israel had been unable to do. He was the Perfect Israel; the Perfect Sacrifice; the Perfect Tabernacle/Sanctuary; the perfect Bread of Life; the perfect Sabbath Rest—He fulfilled the entire law and the prophets and every "symbol" of the old covenant. Colleen | ||
| Patriar Registered user Username: Patriar Post Number: 658 Registered: 3-2005 |
In the bigger picture, the purpose of Jesus' victory over the devil's temptation was that He was the Perfect Israel. Colleen: I had no idea. You just finished what God has been trying to tell me for the past month. He keeps taking me to Luke 4 over and over again...probably 5 times. And I haven't been able to understand WHY. I keep asking Him, "WHY? What am I missing?" Oh my goodness. It took my breath away too, to see this piece fall into place. Wow. Patria (Message edited by patriar on February 29, 2008) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2375 Registered: 10-2004 |
Mommamayi, Here are some links that might be helpful in undertstanding the Trinity: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity (Although, be careful with this link, as some of it has been edited by non-Trinitarians.) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity#Mutually_indwelling http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divine_simplicity http://www.theopedia.com/Eternal_generation_of_the_Son http://www.theopedia.com/index.php?title=Perichoresis&oldid=38231 Also, the July/August 2007 Proclamation! has a good explanation of the Trinity in the "Editor's note" under "Trinity Question" in "Letters to the Editor" starting on page 22. Also, here is a link to a thread where Chris did a study on the Biblical basis of the Trinity: http://64.226.233.122/discus/messages/5371/4025.html?1143955017 (beginning on the first archived page) Jeremy | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 1301 Registered: 8-2004  |
Amen! Thank you Jesus! (for what Colleen wrote above) (Message edited by helovesme2 on February 29, 2008) | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 2376 Registered: 10-2004 |
Another important part of the doctrine of the Trinity is that God is incorporeal (without body by nature/immaterial/non-physical), which Adventism denies. God is an infinite pure Spirit (see John 4:24), and as Jesus says in Luke 24:39 (NASB), "a spirit does not have flesh and bones." Adventism denies that there is such a thing as a spirit and they teach that God the Father (and even the Holy Spirit) has His own body. Therefore, they are saying that there are three physical divine beings (gods), instead of the Biblical doctrine that God is one spirit without body or parts, indivisible in essence/substance/being. Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on February 29, 2008) | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 483 Registered: 7-2005  |
Jeremy, in my 16 years in Adventism, I would sometimes see hints of the teaching that God the Father has his own body. But I don't recall ever seeing or hearing it stated that way openly. Can you refer me to a quote that states this blatantly? The more I read this forum, the more I realize how "insulated" I was while I was in Adventism. Before joining Adventism, I had had a full 39 years of Evangelical Protestant upbringing and very good Bible teaching. That background insulated me from absorbing and embracing the convoluted distinctives of SDA doctrine. And yet, it did something else. It made it difficult to detect the subtle differences in meanings and concepts between Adventism and other churches. I always had vague uneasiness with much of Adventism, but found it difficult to explain the cognitive dissonance to my non-Adventist friends or even to myself. Reading the volumes of material here on this forum, especially the testimonies of you who were raised in Adventism, has really revealed a lot to me. I'm very graterful for all who post here and especially for the Tinkers. Honestwitness | ||
| Mommamayi Registered user Username: Mommamayi Post Number: 201 Registered: 12-2007 |
Jeremy, I really appreciate your help. I will study the links you gave me, though I think I will avoid the first one you said to be careful about at first, because I have no clue what is the truth on this subject, so I will be unable to detect what is error and what isn't. Maybe I'll end with that one?! Again, thanks for assisting me in my ignorance. It's such a joy to grow as a Christian. I feel like a fresh sponge just soaking up all the new truth. ~Mommamayi |
