| Author |
Message |
Chyna
| | Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2000 - 10:02 am: |     |
dear dennis,
You know, only someone who has a "NEED" for that text to be said that way would make such a statement.
yes, exactly, that's why it frustrated me to no end. it was the blindness when the truth was right in front of their eyes. the argument is so stretched that it is obviously trying too hard.
as grace ambassador has found out logic doesn't work when a mind is closed to it.
grace ambassador - really good point about Jesus using bad theology. of course Jesus doesn't use bad theology.
my ex told me if hell was eternal he wouldn't want to be with God. I was aghast. I said, "Accepting God is never a matter of: I like this part of Him, or don't like this part of Him. God is Holy, He is Just, He is the definition of Justice, and the definition of Holiness. It's not a matter of liking it or not, He is who He is, (smile) or as He is prone to saying 'I AM'"
anyway, I'm so relieved to see such strong biblical texts to refute soul-sleep. it's obvious to us, but not to those who are blinded.
that's why we have to pray for God to work. I remember thinking it would take a bloomin' miracle for my ex to ever see that his doctrines ring false :), and the only author of miracles I know is God.
i was reading somewhere that most of what we know about hell is from Jesus, Himself. the other thing that causes me no end of grief is when some try to say that "tormented forever and ever" means being annihilated. torment is not execution.
love in Him,
Chyna (said like the country of China) |
Sherry2
| | Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2000 - 11:37 am: | |
What type of sleep do you all think this is? I'm wondering how this works - if we're not united with a body till the resurrection, do we just float around type of thing, or do we sleep in heaven? I'm asking 'cuz I really don't understand. My grandma who's been Christian Reformed all her life doesn't understand either. I see that the Adventist view is wrong, but I do not fully understand this one either. Help please. :) |
Terry
| | Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2000 - 11:38 am: | |
Question: How great is God's love? Would such a love create eternal torment? Would any of us want this on our worst enemy? A God of such mercy; could He really enjoy eternity knowing that His creation, no matter how awful it has become, is suffering incomprehensible pain and torment in perpetuity?
Terry |
Patti
| | Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2000 - 12:15 pm: | |
Hi, Terry,
Before I speak, let me make a disclaimer: I do not know exactly how God will punish the wicked.
Having said that, let me also say that I don't care. Why? Because:
1. I will not be among them, thanks to the doing and dying of our Lord Jesus Christ;
2. God can only act in a way that is totally righteous and just.
So, I am not worried.
Let me say, however, that:
Hebrews 10:28 Anyone who has violated the law of Moses dies without mercy "on the testimony of two or three witnesses."
29 How much worse punishment do you think will be deserved by those who have spurned the Son of God, profaned the blood of the covenant by which they were sanctified, and outraged the Spirit of grace?
30 For we know the one who said, "Vengeance is mine, I will repay." And again, "The Lord will judge his people."
31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God. |
Chyna
| | Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2000 - 1:55 pm: | |
dear sherry,
there is reason to believe that after believers die their souls go to heaven.
as someone said above, why would it be a reward for God to sweep Enoch and Elijah up to heaven if all they were going to do is sleep? what kinda reward is that? that reminds me of a mom saying to their toddler: lucky you, you've been such a good girl, you can have a nice long nap. teehee, i don't have children, but I do know that naps are pretty much abhorred by kids.
so God isn't taking Enoch and Elijah to be unconscious. I do believe the place is called Paradise. Paradise is only mentioned twice in the bible. Once by Paul, and once by Jesus. Jesus promised the thief Paradise the same day.
so, I don't think we sleep in heaven or float around. ooh, i have a good verse from Hebrews.
if you are familiar with Hebrews 11 it talks about the faithful: Abraham, David, Samson, Rahab etc.
Heb 12:1 -
Therefore, since we have so great a cloud of witnesses surrounding us, let us also lay aside every encumbrance, and the sin which so easily entangles us, and let us run with endurance the race that is set before us
The vast cloud of witnesses are named in chapter 11, who testify by their lives to the power of faith.
the imagery used here is that those mighty in faith, from the Old Testament, are cheering us on now to live godly lives. to run the race. that is tremendously heartening.
with love, Chyna |
Chyna
| | Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2000 - 2:17 pm: | |
dear terry,
yes, God's love is great. however, God is Just. I don't think God decides on things whether it will make Him happy or not. it's funny, but God works within His own nature. Did it make God happy to wipe out the entire earth in Noah's day? No. Just like how He spared Ninevah to Jonah's dismay. when man fell, He devised a way to save man without compromising His nature. it took the sacrifice of His own Son. don't you think it grieved God the Father to be separated from God the Son? when Jesus was praying the night before his crucifixtion He prayed that God would let "this cup" pass from Him. when you read about the death of Christ, what is the most agonizing moment? When Jesus cries out:
Mt 27:46 -
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice, saying, "Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani?" that is, "My God, My God, why hast Thou forsaken Me?"
how could God the Son be separated from God the Father? Sin.
how many sins does it take to be sentenced to hell? how grievious a sin does it take to go to hell? just one. whether it be a thought, or a deed, whether it be a lie, or a murder. just one.
many of us would not kill someone for lying to us, or for coveting our belongings. however, for those "pecadillos" we deserve hell. God's nature separates Him from sin because He is pure and holy. see how our standard is not God's standard? don't all of us want to see everyone come to know God? like we'll say, "my mom, she doesn't believe in God, but she's a good person, she should go to heaven." we earnestly desire it, but our view is human, corrupt.
when Israel kept turning away from God (just read judges, it happens over and over again) God was really sad. Yet, He kept pursuing them. Yes, God is Love. But no, you cannot just say God is Love, He is also Holy and Just.
God had the Israelites wipe out entire peoples. Some speculate that it is because they were diseased or that they were very wicked or whatever, but God's wrath is God's wrath. like Jesus said, "Do not fear the one who can destroy the body, fear the One who can destroy (cast into hell) both the body and soul."
the One is God. God will be responsible for casting those into hell, and it will be because of how He is. I'm sure Jesus didn't run towards the cross because He wanted to. He obeyed. but before He obeyed He prayed that the cup would pass from Him. God will do what needs to be done.
it says in II Timothy 2:12-13
If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us; If we are faithless, He remains faithful; for He cannot deny Himself.
God cannot deny Himself. God is Just, Holy, Merciful, Gracious, Faithful, Love.
Chyna |
Chyna
| | Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2000 - 2:35 pm: | |
dear terry, I have study of soul sleep/hell/eternal security (yeah i know a lot of stuff to cover) under: Just What is the Soul? Where does it Go?
Just What is the Soul, Where does it Go?
my study shows that "destroy" (both body and soul) means the same thing as casting into hell, and that destroy and torture are synonymous by using the Greek text and cross referencing Jesus talking to the demons "have you come to destroy us before the time?" "have you come to torment us before the time?".
another proof is the verse where Jesus says the believers will go into eternal life, and the unbelievers into eternal hell. the word ainios? means eternal. now if you believe that eternal means forever and ever for Christians, you have to believe it also meants forever and ever for non Christians. |
Graceambassador
| | Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2000 - 3:09 pm: | |
Dear Saints:
Chyna, first of all, GREAT INSIGHT!
I will not start debating again "election-predestination-reprobation" since this has been fully covered in the topic "predestination" of this discussion forum.
Here is what I want to add to the discussion, though:
First: - There are more than 300 scriptures that state that God will be "just and righteous" but it is for HIS NAME SAKE. There is little evidence that God's justice is BECAUSE of us, but IN SPITE OF US! There is plenty evidence of the latter.
So, to believe that God's love will not perpetually punish the "reprobate" "unelect" is to deny ALL scriptures in the Old Testament where God wiped away entire nations because of His elect (then the Jewish Nation). God was love then, God is love now. To His elect! God was just then, God is just now FOR HIS NAME SAKE! Check my study WHO IS GOD JUST TO AND WHO AND HOW WE'RE SAVED.
Second, to claim that God is so good that He will not punish the wicked PERPERUTALLY AND CONTINUALLY begs the question: THEN WHY GOD, IN HIS LOVE, SIMPLY DID NOT FORGIVE US OF OUR SINS WITHOUT THE NEED FOR A SACRIFICE. WHY DID HE HAVE TO LET JESUS DIE? THIS IS A HERETICAL ASSUMPTION THAT PROGRESSES INTO DENYING JESUS' DIVINITY. IT IMPLIES THAT GOD IS SO GOOD THAT HE COULD NOT HAVE ALLOWED HIS SON TO DIE FOR SINNERS WHOM HE WOULD ETERNALLY SAVE AND KEEP THEM SAVED, WHO WOULD OTHERWISE BE ETERNALLY PUNISHED AND KEPT ON BEING PUNISHED. Therefore, AS MANY CULTS TEACH, Jesus was indeed the SACRIFICIAL LAMB, BUT NOT GOD! AGAIN, this is what the denial of an eternal continual punishing leads to SPECIALLY BECAUSE IT ULTIMATELY LIMITS GOD'S LOVE, i.e, GOD LOVES THE SINNER NOT ALLOW THEM TO BE PUNISHED ETERNALLY, BUT THE "ONE WHO HAS MADE TO BE SIN FOR US...JESUS CHRIST" this one He let die for all others who were in fact sinners! What a tragic logic!
I insist: based upon the logic above, Jesus was just an "instrument" of redemption and not God. The "fullness of the Godhead" did not dwell in him BODILY. Just like cults teach!!! I hope you see the point here! It is an attack on the divinity of Jesus, who WAS CHRIST!
I emphasize my point and submit to you that the attack by SDA on ETERNAL PUNISHING (not final one time punishment) is in preparation to ultimately downgrade the divinity of Christ, something that has already been ascertained by this forum that the SDA do.
As you see, one thing draws another: (The perverse progression again). See below:
SDA teach:
Christ is capable of sinning
God allows Christ to die for sinners to eternally save them
Sinners have to keep the law to "continue" saved, thus making the sacrifice of Christ is not complete, and needs "additions"
God does not eternally doom the un-elect (I don't know who they are, so do not ask me...) to be eternally punished. Thus, God has a limited love who loves sinners that sinned and allows one who never sinned but became SIN for all others to die a physical agonizing, excruciating painful death.
Thus... the Bible is not the FINAL AUTHORITY
Christ is not so divine anyway...
As such someone else must step in to clarify all things for us (such as EGW), and to help us sort everything out!
What a tragedy!
I hope you see it as I see it!
I've been debating SDA since my youth! One thing I found out about the devil and his hosts:
he is not creative...
His arguments and wiles are one and the same eternally!
My repetiviness has a purpose! It begs people from the SDA and others to reason on their own, seeking prayerfully the help of the Holy Spirit to understand how great a Salvation we've been saved with and what from!
(Please, I'd prefer that this post is seen for its stated value. It is NOT an attempt to draw anyone to the "election-predestination-reprobation" debate again. I think, however, that once we understand these important Bible truths, there will be no doubt as to whether God loves us, how much, and actually who he loves and who he despises).
I am saved by Grace. I do not know why I am saved! I know I am saved by faith in Christ's work! Faith in Christ was imparted to me in election. I was born of the not of flesh and blood, neither the will of man but WILL OF GOD. John chapter 1. All because of His Grace! That's all I know!
Grace Ambassador |
Sherry2
| | Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2000 - 4:10 pm: | |
Well my question was not about hell, and Chyna, I'm not questioning going to heaven, but what on earth is a resurrection for if we're already in heaven. That does not make sense to me at all. The Bible plainly teaches a resurrection, the dead in Christ will arise first and meet the Lord in the air. So what does this mean? Frankly, I see both philosophies as flawed. Something is missing in this picture...I don't know what it is, but I know it does not make sense. Still listening..... |
Terry
| | Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2000 - 8:39 pm: | |
Sherry2, I agree with you. Why would we need to be united with our bodies at the resurrection, when we have been in Heaven (in theory) for 600 years without one? Who are the dead if the dead are already in Heaven with Christ?
GraceA...I am not an SDA anymore! The last verse in Hebrews 11 says that we will all receive our reward together. What does that mean? Christ says, a few times in John (6:39,40,44)"...I will raise them up on that last day.." Who is He raising up, if the dead are already in Heaven or in the air with Christ when He comes again? He doesn't say "I will raise the body up or reunite the spirits with their bodies.."
Terry |
Graceambassador
| | Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2000 - 9:22 pm: | |
1 Corinthians 15: 51-57. Please, from a KJV or any acceptable translation.
There is an urgent need to revise our understanding of prophecy.
WE WILL BE CHANGED!
WE WILL RECEIVE AN INCORRUPTIBLE BODY NOT SUBJECT TO DEATH
To ask what is the purpose is VALID. It shows, however, that we also do not understand the purpose of "the Son of God being manifest: to destroy the works of the evil one". Verse 56-57 gives us the answer. Death MUST be overcome! And as Jesus overcame death, in his physical body, SO WILL WE. We will RECEIVE an incorruptible body. I repeat, this body conquer death!
When Jesus raises us up in the last day is when "mortality will be dressed by mortality". He will raise our bodies. Yes sir! The word dressed here can be understood as "replaced" (dressed as causing something to be covered so as not to be seen as existent any longer).
There are O.T. prophecy enough (no time for it now) that speak about "the redeemed of the Lord whall return and come with singing unto Zion, and everlasting joy shall be upon their heads.." and "The Glory of the Lord God shall be revealed. And all flesh (not a term for Israel or the Church) shall see it together...". And Paul teaches us that WE WILL BE SEEN AS WE ARE ARE SEEN, or WE SHALL KNOW EVEN AS I AM KNOWN.
No more time now! It is 12:24AM here in Michigan!
Good questions and good points!
I do not have half the answers, but I believe that the Bible does!
Grace Ambassador |
Dennisrainwater
| | Posted on Thursday, August 24, 2000 - 9:34 pm: | |
Just a couple of thoughts here...
One thing I have been learning for a while now, is: LET GOD BE GOD!! I am SO glad I am not responsible for making the decisions and judgements that He must make. I also think I can trust Him enough to be grateful that He does not see fit to explain Himself to me at every turn. Based on what I DO know of His character, I can implicitly trust Him to cause things to work out just right! When I do not understand why He has stated His will a certain way; that does NOT negate the fact that He has stated HIS will. 'Nuff said...
Second... I worked for a while as a criminal investigator. I could tell you some stories of gross miscarriages of justice by our "justice system" that would truly curl your toenails! While I was forced to watch as the system ground some poor sap to powder while allowing the truly guilty letch go free on some trumped up plea-bargain, there was something inside me that thundered for recompense!! In some of those cases, there was (is) a deep, undeniable, demanding, unrelenting requirement for true justice to be served on those who could destroy the life of an innocent, and carry no more regard than a momentary laugh. Perhaps this is admitting a cavernous hole in my character, but I could not be satisfied to see those wicked, vicious beasts get off with a quick-sizzle-fry, then...oblivion! And that but for just one offense! Does God feel the pain, sympathise with the abuse, respond to the betrayal in a lesser degree than I do??? I think not.
One might object, "But what about someone who is lost, but still basically a 'nice person'?" This is a fair question -- one to which I must admit I have no answer. This is one of those places I have no option but to allow GOD alone, to be God. An idea... While Salvation is Free, and equally distributed to those trusting in Christ's Redeeming Blood; I think the NT makes a good case for the idea that there will be varying degrees of reward. (The parable of the talents, etc.) Could there be varying degrees of torment?? I don't know.
Perhaps I have raise more thorny questions. What do you all think??
Trusting in a Sovereign, yet trustable God,
Dennis<>< |
Graceambassador
| | Posted on Friday, August 25, 2000 - 8:56 am: | |
Dear Dennis:
Wonderful Christian position that of yours!
I always defer my humble unsolicited opinion to those who will be corageous to say as you said:
Trusting in a Sovereign, yet trustable God
My ONLY point is that Grace is A REVEALING blessing. Thus, as we raise these questions in the atmosphere of Christian learning and brotherly love, GOD will see to it that HIS SPIRIT will illumine us to undertand the way in which HE decided to deal with us.
That is why Paul prays: "The eyes of your unerstanding being elightened" in Ephesians 1.
Thanks for reminding me of Gods Sovereignty!
Grace Ambassador |
Chyna
| | Posted on Friday, August 25, 2000 - 9:04 am: | |
dear sherry,
ditto on GA, meaning, that God does make our bodies incorruptible. as you do know now that even Lazarus, the boy Elijah raised, and various others that Jesus and the apostles resurrected, died again a second time.
so we see that mere resurrection does not mean an incorruptible eternal body. I believe since we have assurance that believer's souls are with God, that then when Jesus comes again
Philippians 3:17-21
17 Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us. 18 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, 19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. 20 For our citizenship is in heaven, from which also we eagerly wait for a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ; 21 who will transform the body of our humble state into conformity with the body of His glory, by the exertion of the power that He has even to subject all things to Himself.
this is a commentary by John Gill on Phil 3:21
Who shall change our vile bodyÖ
Which is defiled with sin, attended with frailty, and is mortal; and being dead, is sown and laid in the grave in corruption, weakness, and dishonour: in the Greek text it is, "the body of our humility"; sin has subjected the body to weakness, mortality, and death; and death brings it into a very low estate indeed, which is very humbling and mortifying to the pride and vanity man: now this vile body, in the resurrection morn, shall be stripped of all its vileness, baseness, and meanness; and be changed, not as to its substance, nor as to its form and figure, which shall always remain same, as did the substance and form of our Lord's body after his resurrection; but as to its qualities, it shall be changed from corruption to incorruption, (1 Corinthians 15:42) , from mortality to immortality, from weakness to power, from dishonour to glory, and be free from all sin}
this is NRV?
I Corinthians 5
35 But someone will ask, "How are the dead raised? With what kind of body do they come?"
36 Fool! What you sow does not come to life unless it dies.
37 And as for what you sow, you do not sow the body that is to be, but a bare seed, perhaps of wheat or of some other grain.
38 But God gives it a body as he has chosen, and to each kind of seed its own body.
39 Not all flesh is alike, but there is one flesh for human beings, another for animals, another for birds, and another for fish.
40 There are both heavenly bodies and earthly bodies, but the glory of the heavenly is one thing, and that of the earthly is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars; indeed, star differs from star in glory. 42 So it is with the resurrection of the dead. What is sown is perishable, what is raised is imperishable.
43 It is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory. It is sown in weakness, it is raised in power.
44 It is sown a physical body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a physical body, there is also a spiritual body.
45 Thus it is written, "The first man, Adam, became a living being"; the last Adam became a life-giving spirit.
46 But it is not the spiritual that is first, but the physical, and then the spiritual.
47 The first man was from the earth, a man of dust; the second man is from heaven.
48 As was the man of dust, so are those who are of the dust; and as is the man of heaven, so are those who are of heaven.
49 Just as we have borne the image of the man of dust, we will also bear the image of the man of heaven.
50 What I am saying, brothers and sisters, is this: flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God, nor does the perishable inherit the imperishable.
rapture anyone?
51 Listen, I will tell you a mystery! We will not all die, but we will all be changed,
52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trumpet. For the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised imperishable, and we will be changed.
53 For this perishable body must put on imperishability, and this mortal body must put on immortality.
54 When this perishable body puts on imperishability, and this mortal body puts on immortality, then the saying that is written will be fulfilled: "Death has been swallowed up in victory."
55 "Where, O death, is your victory? Where, O death, is your sting?"
56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law.
57 But thanks be to God, who gives us the victory through our Lord Jesus Christ.
58 Therefore, my beloved, be steadfast, immovable, always excelling in the work of the Lord, because you know that in the Lord your labor is not in vain.
*phew*, that was awesome though, huh. praise God.
Chyna |
Graceambassador
| | Posted on Friday, August 25, 2000 - 9:46 am: | |
Chyna:
Great post!
The last verse, 58, is the same in a way as Dennis Statement:
"Trusting in a Sovereign, yet trustable God"
Verse 58 implies that we should not move, and not shake and not be weary in doing good EVEN THOUGH WE DO NOT SEE THE RESULTS OF OUR WORK, because GOD HAS WORKED UP A RESULT THAT FAR EXCEEDS OUR WILDEST SPIRITUAL EXPECTATIONS. And THAT IS IN CONTEXT WITH THE RECEIVING OUR INCORRUPTIBLE BODIES, WHICH ACTUALLY IS OUR VICTORY!
DOES IT NOT MAKE YOU SHOUT FOR JOY WHEN YOU REALIZE THAT ROMANS 8 VERSE 30 WE ARE INFORMED THAT IN THE EYES OF GOD "WE'VE BEEN ALREADY GLORIFIED" RIGHT NOW???
This is GRACE, SAINTS!!!
Grace Ambassador |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 26, 2000 - 11:27 pm: | |
Hello Grace Ambassador,
YES, YES, YES, it makes me want to shout and sometimes I'm a shouter indeed! Not in anger but in joy.
This is a GREAT NEWS for us and one that needs to be implanted to all that we know.
Although, for some reason, some folks would rather think of negative things. Sad and amazing, isn't it?
God Bless you,
Denise |
|
