| Author |
Message |
Maryann
| | Posted on Monday, November 06, 2000 - 9:55 pm: |     |
Hi Dan2,
Since you mentioned fruit and I stole a few words out of a sentence of yours:
"And speaking of 'fruit'"
Would you explain your view of why Jesus used so many parables and stories involving fruit?
I've asked that question a number of times and can't seem to get much interest in it?
I enjoy reading your post's. I hope you keep contributing;-)
Maryann |
Max
| | Posted on Monday, November 06, 2000 - 10:13 pm: | |
Hi, Maryann,
I'm not Dan2, but I'm happy to provide all the
occurances of the word "fruit" in the Gospels.
Notice how every usage supports the point
that works inevitably follow faith and never
precede it.
Matthew 3:8ÝProduce fruit in keeping with
repentance.
Matthew 3:10ÝThe ax is already at the root of
the trees, and every tree that does not produce
good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the
fire.
Matthew 7:16ÝBy their fruit you will recognize
them. Do people pick grapes from
thornbushes, or figs from thistles?
Matthew 7:17ÝLikewise every good tree bears
good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit.
Matthew 7:18ÝA good tree cannot bear bad
fruit, and a bad tree cannot bear good fruit.
Matthew 7:19ÝEvery tree that does not bear
good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire.
Matthew 7:20ÝThus, by their fruit you will
recognize them.
Matthew 12:33Ý"Make a tree good and its fruit
will be good, or make a tree bad and its fruit
will be bad, for a tree is recognized by its fruit.
Matthew 13:22ÝThe one who received the seed
that fell among the thorns is the man who
hears the word, but the worries of this life and
the deceitfulness of wealth choke it, making it
unfruitful.
Matthew 21:19ÝSeeing a fig tree by the road,
he went up to it but found nothing on it except
leaves. Then he said to it, "May you never bear
fruit again!" Immediately the tree withered.
Matthew 21:34ÝWhen the harvest time
approached, he sent his servants to the
tenants to collect his fruit.
Matthew 21:43Ý"Therefore I tell you that the
kingdom of God will be taken away from you
and given to a people who will produce its
fruit.
Matthew 26:29ÝI tell you, I will not drink of this
fruit of the vine from now on until that day when
I drink it anew with you in my Father's
kingdom."
Mark 4:19Ýbut the worries of this life, the
deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for
other things come in and choke the word,
making it unfruitful.
Mark 11:13ÝSeeing in the distance a fig tree in
leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When
he reached it, he found nothing but leaves,
because it was not the season for figs.
Mark 11:14ÝThen he said to the tree, "May no
one ever eat fruit from you again." And his
disciples heard him say it.
Mark 12:2ÝAt harvest time he sent a servant to
the tenants to collect from them some of the
fruit of the vineyard.
Mark 14:25Ý"I tell you the truth, I will not drink
again of the fruit of the vine until that day when
I drink it anew in the kingdom of God."
Luke 3:8ÝProduce fruit in keeping with
repentance. And do not begin to say to
yourselves, `We have Abraham as our father.'
For I tell you that out of these stones God can
raise up children for Abraham.
Luke 3:9ÝThe ax is already at the root of the
trees, and every tree that does not produce
good fruit will be cut down and thrown into the
fire."
Luke 6:43Ý"No good tree bears bad fruit, nor
does a bad tree bear good fruit.
Luke 6:44ÝEach tree is recognized by its own
fruit. People do not pick figs from
thornbushes, or grapes from briers.
Luke 13:6ÝThen he told this parable: "A man
had a fig tree, planted in his vineyard, and he
went to look for fruit on it, but did not find any.
Luke 13:7ÝSo he said to the man who took
care of the vineyard, `For three years now I've
been coming to look for fruit on this fig tree
and haven't found any. Cut it down! Why
should it use up the soil?'
Luke 13:9ÝIf it bears fruit next year, fine! If not,
then cut it down.'"
Luke 20:10ÝAt harvest time he sent a servant
to the tenants so they would give him some of
the fruit of the vineyard. But the tenants beat
him and sent him away empty-handed.
Luke 22:18ÝFor I tell you I will not drink again of
the fruit of the vine until the kingdom of God
comes."
John 15:2ÝHe cuts off every branch in me that
bears no fruit, while every branch that does
bear fruit he prunes so that it will be even
more fruitful.
John 15:4ÝRemain in me, and I will remain in
you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must
remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit
unless you remain in me.
John 15:5Ý"I am the vine; you are the
branches. If a man remains in me and I in
him, he will bear much fruit; apart from me you
can do nothing.
John 15:8ÝThis is to my Father's glory, that you
bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my
disciples.
John 15:16ÝYou did not choose me, but I
chose you and appointed you to go and bear
fruit--fruit that will last. Then the Father will give
you whatever you ask in my name.
Max of the Cross |
Maryann
| | Posted on Monday, November 06, 2000 - 11:39 pm: | |
Hi Max or Anyone,
This verse:
"Mark 11:13 Seeing in the distance a fig tree in
leaf, he went to find out if it had any fruit. When he reached it, he found nothing but leaves,
because it was not the season for figs."
Seems to be a bit different than the other fruit stories/parables?
It seems to me that this might be pointing out that the tree, "being out of season", might be parallel to, "not saved?"
The UN-saved person is capable of putting on a great show of "good deeds" or "green leaves." That "person" or "tree" is useless as a "fruit bearing tree" or a "fruit bearing person."
When that tree is "in season" or "saved" fruit appears.
The fruit on the tree that is "in season" points to the fact that it is "in season" and the "fruit bearing person" points to the fact that he is saved.
Hmmmmmm, what do you think? All this leads to more questions! But I wont get into that now;-)
Maryann |
Max
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 12:02 am: | |
Hi Maryann,
The NIV text notes for Mark 11:12-14 and Mark
11:20-21 -- the passages about the fruitless
fig tree cursed by Christ -- might prove helpful:
11:13 "not the season for figs" -- "Fig trees
around Jerusalem normally begin to get
leaves in March or April but do not produce
figs until their leaves are all out in June. This
tree was an exception in that it was already, at
Passover time [Nisan 14], full of leaves."
11:14 "may no one ever eat fruit from you
again" -- "Perhaps the incident was a parable
of judgment.... A tree full of leaves normally
should have fruit, but this one was cursed
because it had none. The fact that the
cleansing of the temple ... is sandwiched
between the two parts of the account of the fig
tree ... may underscore the theme of
judgment.... The only application Jesus
makes, however, is as an illustration of
believing prayer...."
11:20 -- "in the morning" -- "Tuesday morning
of Passion Week."
"withered from the roots" -- "This detail
indicates that the destgruction was total ... and
that no one in the future would eat fruit form
the tree. It served as a vivid warning of the
judgment to come in AD 70...."
As you know, in AD 70 Jerusalem was
attacked by Roman armies and was
destroyed along with its temple. |
Maryann
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 12:44 am: | |
Hi Max,
Hmmmmmmmm, I looked in all the versions and they all say to the effect that "it was not the season for figs."
Matthew Henry Commentary (MHC) says, "for though the time of gathering in figs was near, it was not the season for figs."
That sounds like sound like there should have been green/un-ripe figs?
MHC then goes on to say, "This was intended to be a foreshadowing of the doom passed against the Jewish Church...."
It seems odd that it says that it is not the season, then commentary says this tree is an exception? Well, they aught to have it figured out as they knew the growing season etc.
Hmmmmm......still thinking........Maryann |
Max
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 8:59 am: | |
Me too. |
Dan_2
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 2:48 pm: | |
Thanks Max for the good study on "fruit" that Maryann questioned. And thank you Maryann for your affirmation. I wish I lived close enough to join you guys at your FAF. Maybe one day we could start one up here in Portland, Oregon. I know there are 1,000's of former SDA's in my area. Many who have left Adventism, yet fill "guilty" attending another church; especially on Sunday. I pray for them and for the opportunity to band some of this folks together for encouragement and support.
By the way, I left Adventism (and Adventist ministry) over 6 years ago. And you know what? Not one single Adventist friend (and one sister) or Adventist's who know me (which would be way over 2,000 as I pastored in Oregon for over 10 years) has contacted me wanting to know, "What did I learn/find that caused me to leave?" I'm serious; not one single person. For a denomination that professes to have a passion for the truth, I find it interesting that few (if any)approach "truth" with the reality that they may not "know the truth?" When I was an Adventist, I didn't doubt SDA theology, but I always held open the door of possiblity that SDA theology (and EGW) could we in error in some, if not many places. Yet, when you look at SDA schools that only stock SDA books on theology in their library. When non-SDA's are not allowed to speak at their churches (at least at the 6 SDA Churches I pastored). When your denominational theology is founded as being "God's choosen people" I guess this is to be expected.
I would like to kindly (and everything I write is written to to take jabs at Adventist, but at Adventism)offer a challenge. If SDA theology is so "true" why is it that all the 1,000's of Godly Christian pastors (Chuck Swindoll, Max Lucado, Bill Hybels, Rick Warren, Billy Graham), great theologians (C.S. Lewis, Edersheim, Vine, etc.) and great Christian men and women song writers (Steven Curtis Chapman, Michael W. Smith, Twila Paris, etc.) continue to be in "the dark" concerning the Sabbath, Mark of the Beast being Sunday, etc. Why can't the Holy Spirt get through to them? If the truths of God's Word are not clear enough to stand on its own (thus needing a prophet to see visions that explain these truths-Adventism) then God help those millions of us Christians who are not Adventists and thus don't have the writings of EGW.
Please Adventist readers, you must "step out of the Adventist world" and look into it from the "other side" to truely see how the claims of Adventism are cultic.
Well, I really intented to write a short response to Max and Maryann. I would give anything for my Adventist friends to find the grace and peace I have found in being a part of the body of Christ and not having to "prove/argue" (as with the Revelation Seminars, which were really evanglistic meetings, that I taught) that they must leave their denomination and join the true church.
I really care about Adventist people. I worry for Adventist teens (my daughter knows so many who hate the Sabbath, church services, the legalism of EGW, etc. and are danger of losing their salvation, because they are becoming bitter towards their faith. I pray that somehow, this forum will open the eyes of many who know in their hearts that something is wrong with the Advenist denomination.
"Blessed are those who hunger and thirst..." --Dan |
Max
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 4:07 pm: | |
Dan2, have you been in contact with Dale
Ratzlaff? I know he'd be thrilled to hear from
you. |
Cindy
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 07, 2000 - 6:50 pm: | |
Hi Dan2, You are so right in mentioning these Godly men and women who are preachers, writers, and singers who do not feel the obligation to "keep" the seventh day as holy...
Would God continue to bless their ministry if they continually and blatently disregarded the Holy Spirit's leading? If the seventh day is so vital to observe, it shouldn't be so hard for other Christians to see.
Reading Swindoll and Yancey years ago opened my eyes to the fact that there was an authentic, even vital, Christianity outside of Adventism. And preachers like Spurgeon, a contemporary of EGW, were Spirit-filled also. So many through the years.
It is interesting that the PREACH seminars (put on by the Ministerial Association of the GC), invite other denominations' pastors to preach...along with an Adventist one. These are now from satellite to churches even and are designed to reach the non-adventist clergy. Adventist ministers invite non-Adventist ministers in their local area to come an watch... I wonder how many of these guest speakers become convinced of the Sabbath "truth" after contact with Adventism.
Grace always,
Cindy |
Lydell
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 8:33 am: | |
Yes Dan, isn't it amazing that they, like we, didn't stop to ask those questions? The most amazing one of all really should be, "WHY is it that IF the sabbath is so vitally important that the Lord has somehow, all through the history of the church, been unable to make a major issue of this point?" Hey, he was able to teach them truth about Christ being the son of God, He certainly made a big deal about that one, but somehow he doesn't have the power to get across the "truth" about the sabbath. Hmm, could it possibly be....
Since you have left the denomination far more recently than my hubby and I, maybe you can clear something up. We hear from folks here on the forum and via e-mail that bring up most creative twists to what we were hearing when we were in the denomination (we left the doors, tho not necessarily the doctrines about '88.)
When we were there the "seal of God" was the sabbath. Now we hear, "the sabbath is the sign of the seal of God" Alrightee then! How does the official party line go on explaining that?
When we were there it was "sin is transgression of the law". Does that still stand or is there a creative twisting there also?
We have heard from one nearly hyperventilating man who apparently was near bursting a blood vessel over spouting, "you died, the law didn't die". (This came in answer to the passage about having died to the law to be married to Christ.) Obviously his attempt was that the requirement to keep the sabbath is still standing. This particular individual came up with some of the most creative twisting of scriptures we have seen from any SDA. We have wondered if it come from his own creation or new party line twisting of their doctrines.
Can anyone shed any light on these? |
Lorinc
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 11:14 am: | |
Hi Lydell, et. al,
I, too, have seen the "sign of the seal" mumbo-jumbo in a couple of places, but didn't think too much about it. EGW plainly said that the Sabbath is the Seal of the Living God -- not the *sign* of the seal -- so these new verbal gymnastics won't hold up.
It's like how Adventism used to teach that Christ entered the Most Holy Place in heaven *for the first time* in 1844 ; now that more people are reading the letter to the Hebrews, the story is evolving into, "Well, God moves around, and so does Jesus. It's not that Christ entered the Holy of Holies for the first *time* in 1844, it's just that He began the Investigative Judgement *phase* of His ministry then! Ah, yes....
On a related note, has anyone read the "Letters" column of the current "Signs of the Times"? In a response to one letter, the editor (I assume Marvin Moore?) stated plainly that our salvation comes through faith in Christ, not through keeping any of the commandments -- even the fourth. He said we cannot determine the saved/unsaved state of anyone else, and he even referred to Colossians 2:16 to support his argument! I was quite surprised --- I wonder how he can harmonize that gospel-sounding message with EGW's inspired "Sabbath = Seal of God / Sunday = Mark of Beast" statements....
Are we seeing a "grace awakening," or only a muddying of the waters?
Grace and Peace to All,
Lorin |
Max
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 12:37 pm: | |
Lorin,
I think both. The muddying is Satan's work, the
grace awakening God's.
Think of Clay Peck. Think of Dale Ratzlaff.
Think of Dan Simpson. Think of Dan2. Think of
Richardjr. God is working through wonderful,
courageous, God-driven SDA ministers all
over North America!
Talk to Dale Ratzlaff for more information on
what's going on. It's exciting!
Our faith is faith in a powerful, sovereign God
who has absolute control of this and every
other situation. Satan may be the dark lord of
the world, but "the earth is the Lord's and the
fulness thereof."
Watch him work! Watch him use us! Watch
God work through FAF. Watch him take sow's
ears -- such as myself -- and turn them into
silk purses.
The "bewitched" SDA people (Galatians 3:1)
are our friends and not our enemies. They are
"the lost sheep of the house of Israel." God
loves them no matter how we may feel about
them.
"For God so loved the world" -- Satan's
domain -- "that he gave his only begotten Son
that whosever believeth in him might have
everlasting life." John 3:16.
That text means WE must love the world too,
not as others love it, but as God loved it.
And that means Seventh-day Adventist people!
No matter what our feelings may be.
Praise God from whom all blessings flow.
Max of the Cross |
Dan_2
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 5:31 pm: | |
Wow, some great observations and insights since I last wrote to this forum! Max, I will contact Dale R. Cindy, I appreciated reading your response. I know for a fact, the Adventist schools keep non-Adventist Christian authors out of their library so as not to confuse their students. And that Adventism has no answers for the fact that the best in Christian writing in "outside the truth" of Adventism. That should say something to our Adventist friends!
Lydell, very interesting information on "the seal of God" issue. I believe that it is the result of many challenges to the theology of this SDA belief that is forcing them to react. However, you can't get away from the EGW quote(s)!
Lorrin, I hope and pray that it is a "grace awaking" in Adventism.
IMPORTANT QUESTION: I would see tremendous benefits of copying most of the discussion on this site for "questioning Adventist." You people have the personal experiences and tremendous insights could be so helpful to others. What are the copyright laws here? Am I out of line to suggest this? Your discussions have strengthen me in many ways!
Thanks, Dan aka Dan_2 (I feel like CIA agent with my user name) |
Max
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 7:00 pm: | |
Dan_2, as far as copyrights are concerned,
just as the posting person for permission,
then export whatever you need for your CIA
mission. FAF does not hold copyrights for
people who post here. |
Cindy
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 08, 2000 - 9:20 pm: | |
Hi Dan2! :-))
Check your e-mail when you get time...I messed up the address last Thursday night; the letter was just returned tonight! An updated version is in cyberspace again...
Grace always,
Cindy |
Lydell
| | Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2000 - 7:20 am: | |
Why Lorrin, the answer to how the man can justify the "can't judge someone's salvation on the issue of the sabbath" in light of EGW's writings is obvious. It is the ever present SDA "...but..." that goes on to say "if they are REALLY Christian, eventually they WILL keep the sabbath."
The first statement is always the one that is touted when the denomination is trying to make inroads on someone who is Christian. The "but..." part is what is said as an aside to each other when the Christian is out of earshot. |
Max
| | Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2000 - 8:26 am: | |
From my long history in Adventism I know that
Adventists have always said that the Sabbath
becomes the test -- read judgment -- only after
a person becomes aware of "the truth" about
the Sabbath.
Yesterday in the mail I received a free copy of
a booklet entitled "Waiting for the Return of
Jesus" (copyright 1998) by J.B. Church, an
SDA minister I've known since I was five years
old. He's Director of the good News Mission,
P.O. Box 516, Loma Linda, CA 92354, phone
909.796.6770, email junemason@juno.com.
Paragraph #33 (the pages are not numbered)
says this:
^^33. WILL PEOPLE BE LOST IF THEY FAIL
TO KEEP THE SABBATH?
I'm glad that I'm not the judge. "Man looks on
the outward appearance, but the Lord looks at
the heart." 1 Sam 16:7 NIV. It is iimportant to;
"build each other up." 1 Thess 5:11 NIV. There
is something good about "taking part in the
fellowship." Acts 2:42 TEV. My grand parents,
uncles and aunts, were some of the greatest
Christians that I ever knew. They were not
Sabbath keepers. And I expect to meet them in
heaven. I have been a Sabbath Keeper [sic].
But I don't think the Sabbath has made me any
more holy than other Christians.^^
You be the judge.
Max of the Cross |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2000 - 11:31 pm: | |
Lydell, the "creative twisting" continues. I'm always amazed at how the traditional doctrines continue to change shape. As far as I can tell, however, the official teachings really haven't changed--although I think the Investigative Judgment is now being presented as a vindication of God. (As if he needs our vindication!)
As Richard says, Adventism is a moving target. The bottom line, though, remains the same, and there's no repentance for the deceptions.
Praising God for revealing truth,
Colleen |
Max
| | Posted on Thursday, November 09, 2000 - 11:46 pm: | |
In my opinion the current "vindication of God"
teaching among Adventists is an affront to the
sovereignty of God. It is another attempt to
manipulate God in the sense that he is weak
and we are strong. As Colleen pointed out, it
is as though "he needs our vindication."
I have news for my friends the Adventists: God
doesn't "need" anybody, and certainly not
SDAs, for God has no needs.
Psalm 2:4 He that sitteth in the heavens shall
laugh: the LORD shall have them in derision.
5 Then shall he speak unto them in his wrath,
and vex them in his sore displeasure.
6 Yet have I set my king upon my holy hill of
Zion.
Max of the Cross |
Max
| | Posted on Friday, November 10, 2000 - 1:58 pm: | |
Even when Jesus Christ was here as
God-Walking-on-Earth (Immanuel), he still
had NO spiritual needs that had to be met by
human beings. |
Max
| | Posted on Friday, November 10, 2000 - 2:07 pm: | |
One might say Christ had a need to die to
save us from our sins, but that was not a
need. That was a loving and giving expression
of God's eternality -- who he will be, is, and
has been from before the foundation of the
earth. |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Friday, February 23, 2001 - 4:03 pm: | |
More from the Ellen G White Estate, refuting SDAs:
>>
The Ellen G. White Web Site
Bringing you the latest research on Ellen White
Many false prophets are gone out into the world. 1 John 4:1
"These books...will bear the test of investigation"
Home Shut Door Visions 1844 Top 7 Plagiarism Health Articles Letters FAQ Search Order
What is the Testimony of Jesus?
Are Mrs. White's Writings the Spirit of Prophecy?
Rev. 12:17: "And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ." This prophecy points out clearly that the remnant church will acknowledge God in His law and will have the prophetic gift. Obedience to the law of God, and the spirit of prophecy has always distinguished the true people of God, and the test is usually given on present manifestations. --Ellen White, Loma Linda Messages, p. 33
Adventist definition of the "Testimony of Jesus"
Testimony of Jesus --> Spirit of Prophecy --> Ellen White
According to Adventists, the true remnant church will have a prophet. For many years the SDA church boasted that the prophetic gift must be active in the church--in other words, there had to be a living prophet in the remnant church. Note carefully from the quote above that Ellen White said, "the test is usually given on present manifestations." After Mrs. White's death in 1915, the Adventist church was in a dilemma because they no longer had a living prophet. So, they "redefined" their previous teachings, and said that Ellen White "lives on" through the writings of her books.
Who is the Spirit of Prophecy?
In 1 Corinthians 12:7-11 the Bible says the Holy Spirit is the source of spiritual gifts. One of those gifts is the gift of prophecy (1 Cor. 12:10). Therefore, the phrase "Spirit of Prophecy" would seem to apply to the One who gives the gifts--the Holy Spirit--and not to the human recipient of the gift. The Spirit of God is called by many names in the Bible. In all cases it would be blasphemy to ascribe these names to any human:
Spirit of Wisdom - Isa. 11:2
Spirit of Understanding - Isa. 11:2
Spirit of Counsel - Isa. 11:2
Spirit of Power - Isa. 11:2
Spirit of Knowledge - Isa. 11:2
Spirit of the Fear of the Lord - Isa. 11:2
Spirit of Judgment - Isa. 28:6
Spirit of the Lord - Micah 2:7
Spirit of Grace - Zech. 12:10
Spirit of Supplications - Zech. 12:10
Spirit of God - Matt. 3:16
Spirit of Your Father - Matt. 10:20
Spirit of Truth - John 14:17
Spirit of Jesus - Acts 16:7
Spirit of Holiness - Rom. 1:4
Spirit of Life - Rom. 8:2
Spirit of Christ - Rom. 8:9
Spirit of Adoption - Rom. 8:15
Spirit of the Living God - 2 Cor. 3:3
Spirit of His Son - Gal. 4:6
Spirit of Promise - Eph. 1:13
Spirit of Wisdom - Eph. 1:17
Spirit of Revelation - Eph. 1:17
Spirit of Jesus Christ - Phil. 1:19
Spirit of Power - 2 Tim. 1:7
Spirit of Love - 2 Tim. 1:7
Spirit of Grace - Heb. 10:29
Spirit of Glory - 1 Pet. 4:14
Spirit of Prophecy - Rev. 19:10
The weight of the Biblical evidence indicates the "Spirit of Prophecy" refers to the Holy Spirit, not to any human or any human's writings.
Biblical definition of the "Testimony of Jesus"
The word, "Testimony" (Greek marturia) comes from a root word which in its various forms in Greek means "testifying," "testimony," "witness," and "martyr."
"Of Jesus" could be understood in two ways:
The testimony came from Jesus. This stresses Jesus as the source of the testimony.
The testimony is about Jesus. This stresses that Jesus is the subject of the testimony.
Notice how the apostle John understood the meaning of the word "testimony" (marturia):
This is the disciple which testifieth of these things, and wrote these things: and we know that his testimony [marturia] is true. John 21:24
What John is telling us in this verse is that his gospel is a testimony about Jesus. Therefore, John's gospel is the "testimony of Jesus."
Now, notice how John uses marturia to describe the testimony of the believer concerning Jesus:
...for this is the witness [marturia] of God which he hath testified of his Son. He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness [marturia] in himself: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record [marturia] that God gave of his Son. And this is the record [marturia], that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. 1 John 5:9-11
In these important verses we find that those who believe on Jesus have the marturia, the witness or testimony of Jesus, in them!
How is the "testimony of Jesus" used in Revelation?
[John] Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony [marturia] of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw. Rev. 1:2
In this verse John says he bore witness of three things:
The Word of God
The Testimony of Jesus Christ
The things that he saw (in vision)
John goes on to say in verse 9:
I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony [marturia] of Jesus Christ.
Notice the two reasons that John gives for being imprisoned on the isle of Patmos:
The Word of God
The Testimony of Jesus
Clearly it was John's testimony about Jesus that resulted in his being imprisoned.
Look at Revelation 6:9:
And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony [marturia] which they held.
Notice the martyrs were slain for two reasons:
The Word of God
Their testimony [marturia], presumably about Jesus.
From the context of chapter 12, the testimony of Jesus clearly refers to the word of testimony of those who "loved not their lives unto the death":
And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony [marturia]; and they loved not their lives unto the death. ... And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony [marturia] of Jesus Christ. Revelation 12:11, 17
Revelation 19:10:
...I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony [marturia] of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony [marturia] of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy.
Here we find that John's "brethren" also had the marturia, or testimony of Jesus. The marturia is here described as the gift of prophecy, which is given to testify about Jesus Christ. Here are some alternate readings of the last part of Revelation 19:10
The prophetic spirit proves itself by witnessing to Jesus. (New American Bible)
Testimony to Jesus is the spirit which underlies Prophecy. (Weymouth New Testament)
Those who bear testimony to Jesus are inspired like all the prophets. (New English Bible)
The purpose of all prophecy and of all I have shown you is to tell about Jesus. (Living Bible)
The last reference to marturia is found in Revelation 20:4:
...I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness [marturia] of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
This verse parallels Rev. 6:9. Again, the two reasons for martyrdom are given:
The Word of God
The witness [marturia] of Jesus.
Conclusion
The weight of the Biblical evidence is that the "testimony of Jesus" is the believer's personal witness and testimony about Jesus Christ. Rather than being the writings of Ellen White, the testimony of Jesus is found in the New Testament, whose writers bore witness to Jesus Christ. Furthermore, John tells us that the testimony of Jesus is found in the heart of all those who accept and believe in Jesus as the Son of God:
He that believeth on the Son of God hath the witness [marturia] in himself 1 John 5:10<< |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Friday, February 23, 2001 - 6:54 pm: | |
Yikes...
I should say that this is from not the EGW Estate but the Ellen G. White Website..there is a difference.
God Bless all,
DtB |
Denisegilmore
| | Posted on Saturday, February 24, 2001 - 12:01 am: | |
http://www.ellenwhite.org |
|
