| Author |
Message |
Breezy
| | Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2000 - 5:41 pm: |     |
Hi Uncle Milt!
Love your website. By the way, say hi to all my friends in Brazil. My family went to Rio and Sao Paulo when I was 3 1/2 years old, and worked as missionaries in the deep jungles. I don't remember alot about it except my little weiner dog names pretzel, and how I loved my leche' with ice in it. And the fabulous marketplaces. Makes me homesick just thinking about it. Thanks for all the great thoughts above and elsewhere. That's how I've always thought of that word-full of grace. That is our great comission. God bless you and your work!
niece Wendy |
Steve
| | Posted on Saturday, July 15, 2000 - 6:55 pm: | |
Hi Graceambassador,
I just spent an enjoyable 45 minutes or so at your website. Very nice!
I have problems with the L part of TULIP. (Maybe other areas, but I can't seem to make sense of that one.) Should I contact you here or on your website to discuss that? Just want to figure out where I am on that one.
Above all, thanks for being so strong on grace.
Steve |
Graceambassador
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2000 - 12:20 am: | |
Hi Breezy and Steve:
Thanks for the words!
Breezy, Sao Paulo today is the capital of the Southern Hemisphere. Economically of course. The city of Sao Paulo alone has an economy that is said to be stronger than that of all Nordic countries put together! It has three levels, a metro (subway service) that is better than any other in the world! Rio is beautiful in the shore lines but crime is Rio is just desperatly high!
My wife travels often to Brazil. We live in Holland Michigan as Missionaries to America!
Steve:
In the DISCUSSION theme: Predestination, we've discussed and are currently discussing issues that could be great for you to understand the "L". In my Web site, EMBASSY OF GRACE, I have a couple of studies that deal with the word
"All". This is because, in order to contradict Limited Atonement, most people use the text of Timothy that God wants ALL men to be saved. This study called THE MEANING OF THE WORD "ALL" explains some of it. Also check my ANSWER PAGE where I respond to some questions about the same kind of issue. On the ANSWER PAGE you may find me a little radical on removing any man's participation in Salvation. If that is the case it is okay!
You are more than welcome to discuss with me via e-mail. I know that the "L" is the most controversial point. You can e-mail to Grace Ambassador and I will happy to hear your thoughts about it!
Looking forward to!!!
Grace and Peace!
Grace Ambassador
P.S. - To the owners of this discussion list, let me know if I am breaking the rules by advertising my site! |
Cindy
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2000 - 6:43 am: | |
Dear "Uncle Milt"! Hi again! I want to tell you that I posted Uncle Milt yesterday by mistake! I see you had actually signed earlier as "Brother Milt"! And I had thought, "oh, how rude of me to say that...he'll think I'm inferring that he is really old or something; when in actuality I'm probably older than you!" :-))
So, I was glad to see that you didn't mind at all; in fact, kind of liked it! God's amazing Grace really hit me again then, in that, because of your response, I went to your web site for the first time (maybe you posted the site before, but I had never paid attention). I was very blessed, especially by your comments on 'Religion and Grace: What is the Difference?"
I would encourage others to check it out!
You comment on Grace and Religion in terms of the story of the Prodigal son, the Elder son, and their Father. It is one of my all-time favorite parables. So much is in there to show what a wonderful Father we have in God!!
As you wrote, Grace is the Father! Hope you don't mind a few quotes from your article...
"The Father waited for the return of his son. Grace always waits. It believes people will change. In fact, grace will provide the means for people to change. Grace is not always the fastest thing in the world because it patiently waits. The father waited because he knew that if the son ever would come back, he would be in desperate need of him.."
And, "the oldest son is pure Religion. And sadly, religion to which most of us subscribe. In contrast, with the father who WAITED, the son was in the field WORKING. Grace WAITS, religion WORKS! Grace is a WORK THAT IS ALREADY DONE, FINISHED FOREVER! RELIGION IS A WORK STILL TO BE DONE. WHAT A CONTRAST WITH BIBLICAL TEACHING!..."
Amen!
I like how Barbara Brown Taylor writes about this story in her book "The Preaching Life"...She imagines the older brother's thoughts about the celebration for his prodigal brother:
"Let the penitent come hom, by all means, but let him come home to PENANCE, not a party! where is the moral instruction in that kind of welcome? What about facing consequences? What kind of world would this be if we all made a practice of rewarding sinners while the God-fearing folk are still out in the fields?...what do you have to do to get a party around here? Do you have to go off and squander your inheritance before you can come home to be embraced, and kissed, and assured that you belong?"
"But here is where the loving father earns Hiis title. He does not take a swing at his firstborn, as some of us might have been tempted to do, not even remind him to honor his father. He knows that he has lost BOTH of his sons. he has lost the younger one to a life of recklessness, but he has lost the older one to a more serious fate, to a life of angry self-righteousness that takes him so far away from his father that he might as well be feeding pigs in a far country.. He wants his father to love him as he DESERVES to be loved, because he has stayed put and followed orders and done the right thing."
The Father graciously reminds the older son that "everything I have is already yours!!", but 'religion' is never satisfied. It's mindset is always that there is something more to DO! Not wanting to rest in Good News that it has all been DONE in Christ!
As you wrote, "God provided a perfect sacrifice so you can forever party!" Praise God for that complete sacrifice of JESUS!
May we live in grateful response to that indescribable gift!!
Grace always,
Cindy |
Graceambassador
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2000 - 11:13 am: | |
Thanks Cindy!
I saw what was done to a particular fallen preacher from the inside. I was his TV man for the Portuguese Speaking world. To say that this preacher messed up is an understatement. To say that part of his beliefs lead him to his own sin is probably true. To say that he built a monster out of his denomination, the same monster that ultimately ate him, is perfectly correct. But the lack of wisdom of his denomination in actually providing space, electricity and the logistics for CNN and the National Enquirer to destroy him was tantamount to surrendering church affairs for the world to judge. God hates this kind of "exposËs"! The Father took the son inside, cleaned him, fed him, put a ring on his finger, then, only then the father brought him to the public view! The world would not dare to do surrender their affairs to the Church! Why? Paul asks the question which resounds loudly yet: "Is there any wise among you? Can those who will judge the angels have to take their affairs to the ungodly? (paraphrased)".
This kind of attitude was the same as the older brother! I heard preachers from that denomination saying:"Well, I know God forgave him and that he is still a Christian, but I do not want anything to do with him". Is is not the same as the statement of the older son? "THIS SON OF YOURS". Allow me to repeat myself: What a tragedy! One is willing to accept that the other is the son of the same father but not to admit the same is HIS own brother!!!
I pray that as the Body of Christ mature we will more demonstrative, or to allow more manifestations of the Father's nature that He has imparted us with! Christ gave the world the right to doubt whether we were or not His disciples by our DEMONSTRATED love! As we manifest more of the Father's nature, then the world will know that we are Christ's disciples!!!
Grace Ambassador
Drowning in Grace and enjoying the gasps!
Brother Milt |
Cindy
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2000 - 1:58 pm: | |
Grace Ambassador/Uncle+Brother Milt!
Yes! You are so right!
Luke 15:28-30 (NIV)
"The older brother became angry and refused to go in. So his father went out and pleaded with him. But he answered his father, 'Look! All these years I've been slaving for you and never disobeyed your orders. Yet you never gave me even a young goat so I could celebrate with my friends. But when THIS SON OF YOURS who has squandered your property with prostitutes comes home, you kill the fattened calf for him!"
I think the Father purposely attempts to bring the Elder son into the realization that they are a family; that they belong not only to the Father as his SONS, but also to each other as BROTHERS!
Luke 15:31&32:
"'My son, the father said, 'you are always with me, and everything I have is yours. But we had to celebrate and be glad, because THIS BROTHER OF YOURS was dead and is alive again; he was lost and is found.'"
Isn't that great!
As Barbara Brown Taylor writes in 'The Preaching Life':
"The story ends with the Elder brother standing outside the house in the yard with his Father, listening to the party going on inside. Jesus leaves it that way, I think, because it is up to each one of us to decide whether we will stand outside all alone being right, or give up our rights and go inside to take our place at a table full of reckless and righteous saints and scoundrels, brothers and sisters united only by our relationship to one loving Father, who refuses to give us the love we DESERVE but cannot be prevented from giving us the love we NEED."
This love of the Father is, to me, the GRACE given us in the GOOD NEWS of the Finished and All-sufficient Work of Christ For Us! It is a Grace we definitely do not DESERVE; but a Grace that we completely NEED!
Blessings always,
Cindy
P.S.
And, thinking of how we are to sit at the Father's table together! reminds me of how Chuck Swindoll describes Grace in his book 'The Grace Awakening'. In the wonderful chapter about King David and the crippled Mephibosheth who is invited to sit and eat at the KING'S table, Swindoll writes:
"Gathered with the people of God at that great marriage feast of the Lamb, the tablecloth of HIS GRACE will cover all our crippling needs."
I love that...
Cindy |
Ritchie
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2000 - 2:47 pm: | |
To Sherry2, Cindy, and "Uncle Milt";
I am just overwhelmed by all the wonderful exchange between all of you on the beauty of God's grace. It's good company to be in and I am greatly encouraged. What I find most meaningful is the affirmation of what my wife and I have been studying for about a decade now -- Christ's righteousness -- realizing that we are not the only ones believing in this (with an SDA background, that is).
There is so much to respond to with very little time. So all I will say for now is DITTO, DITTO, AND MORE DITTO!
Keep it up! |
Cindy
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2000 - 3:27 pm: | |
Blessings to you Ritchie!
I'm glad you and your wife are here with us...to Rest and Celebrate in the message of the Cross--JESUS!
In His Grace always,
Cindy |
Billtwisse
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2000 - 8:48 pm: | |
Three cheers! I love reading these testimonies. All of you just keep on saying what you're saying!
--Twisse |
Bmorgan
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2000 - 9:36 pm: | |
Ritchie,
I want to echo your sentiment,
"What I find most meaningful is the affirmation of what my wife and I have been studying for about a decade now -- Christ's righteousness -- realizing that we are not the only ones believing in this (with an SDA background being that is)"
Only a few months ago, I felt like the whole structure of my biblical foundation was ripped out and I was toppling down at break-neck speed, spinning out of control.
It was frightening. The humiliation I felt finding out I was deceived by something(Sda-ism) I put ALL my trust in was great. I spend days crying.
I landed on the cushion of GRACE. I am still amazed at how the Lord is teaching through experience what grace really is. I am even understanding what the gospel is.
It is Good News. Jesus died to pay for the penalty of MY sin and offer us the Gift of salvation. We could NEVER pay him back for.
I am saved by Grace Alone: No "ands, ifs, buts, or howevers." My eating, dressing (no jewelry), keeping(sabbaths) doesn't earn me any favors. And best of all, because he has written His law on my heart, the life I live in the flesh, is not I but Christ living in me. Hallelujah!
It is liberating and joyful news.
Thanks guys. Wendy, What a quick and MAJOR transformation! Renewing of the mind. From staunch defender of EGW to maybe she is not all she is cracked up to be.
My dear, that discovery has been the hardest for me to accept, even though I have had problems for years, understanding her "counsel" Hope the let down is not too great.
Now, in Christ Alone.
BMorgan |
Ritchie
| | Posted on Sunday, July 16, 2000 - 10:11 pm: | |
To Bmorgan;
One thing that I've learned in church growth is that people are most receptive to God and His working when they are going through a major crisis in life.
Not too long ago my wife and I lost a newborn. We had already been studying the matter of the gospel and grace. What we did not expect, however, was to experience a 'second' mourning at about the same time--that of the same sentiment you express. Yes, we too have felt lied to and cheated. But, at the same time, we also accept the way God works; His timing is always right on!
One thing for sure is that we have no regrets for having 'stumbled across' such a wonderful revelation of freedom in Christ! We feel that we truly have been given a new lease on life. It's actually exciting 'starting over'. |
Breezy
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2000 - 12:42 am: | |
Dear BMorgan,
Thank you! It has been more liberating than I could have imagined. Even tho' a staunch defender of EGW, I think my mind has been chewing on alot of things for a long time. I almost feel like I was asking all the right questions very quickly and being blessed with all the right answers just as rapidly. I definitely feel God's hand in this. I don't always remember everything I think on late at night before I fall asleep, but I do remember worrying that focusing on the intrigue of end-time events was perhaps substituting for a close relationship with Jesus. I had the love for Him and true desire to only be with Him and serve Him, but somehow knew that if I would rather be reading EGW or another author that focused on endtimes, than reading the Bible, something was terribly wrong. And I prayed right there that Jesus would show me what it would take to develop the relationship with Him that I craved. I don't know how many days later I stumbled on this site as a link from Dale Ratzlaff's page and everything I started to learn had the ring of truth. I have no doubt that God led me in this journey of discovery. I had a little letdown which transformed rapidly into peace and joy. You see I don't feel a need to leave the SDA church or reject things because we have a miniscule membership that meets in the splendor of the Olympic Mountain range and it is very open and nonjudgemental. Since we are too small to have a pastor, I am planning to have a presentation where I sing songs about grace and then have a small spoken presentation bringing in the message of grace and Christ's righteousness. I don't fear at all the reception because all are good friends and open to new ideas. We've even had an itinerant preacher from an unknown denomination(if any) speaking at our services the last few weeks. Maybe we can talk him into staying. I love my Sabbaths and they are special days for me. I just have the joy that accompanies the freedom I now have and that frees up the day(and every day) for me to focus on Jesus and not what I should or shouldn't be doing. Thank you and all the rest for your support and loving patience, and lack of criticism. You are very special people! I look forward to being with you all soon!
God's Blessings to you all!
Wendy |
Cindy
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2000 - 4:35 am: | |
Bmorgan
Hi again! I loved what you wrote:
"I landed on the cushion of GRACE. I am still amazed at how the Lord is teaching through experience what grace really is."
Me too, just when I sometimes think I can't go on anymore, God opens my eyes to see more of His blessings that surround me. On the cushion of grace is where I want to stay!
Thank you all for being here!
Always in grace,
Cindy |
Cindy
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2000 - 5:44 am: | |
Ritchie, It must have been very sad to have lost your baby... I think from what you posted you may have already read Bmorgan's post on her similar situation. If not it's at the thread 'Graveyard and Resurrection' from May 20, 2000.
I've also mentioned to check out the latest issue of 'Christianity Today' magazine (July 10, 2000). There are some very good articles in this issue.
One entitled "Praying for Hope" by Nancy Guthrie is about the loss of her baby. The pictures of Nancy and Hope (her baby) are priceless.
How she talks about prayer and trusting in God's sovereignity and timing is something I stuggle with!! I want to accept God's perfect timing in my life--and glorify Him in the midst of my circumstnces always. Not always easy to do...
I'd like to quote from another article in that issue by Marguerite Shuster entitled 'Stony the Road We Trod'. I think it's great on hanging on to the only ONE who is able to save us....and bring us 'home'!! Praise Him!
"Being presented faultless, WITHOUT BLEMISH, before God is a little like that--impossible. But that is truly going to happen because of the work of Christ. Imagine it: Being presented before God--God himself ('in the presence of his glory')--not dingy and gray and scuffed and broken but so clean and pure that you have no failures to hide. Not with all the little and large kindnesses you failed to perform. Not with all of that unsavory stuff you would have done, and done eagerly, if only you had found the nerve or the power. Not even what you did do that day. Remember? No even that. Pure, spotless, without blemish, that's real joy, exceeding joy."
"There really is a God who is able. The word has a strong sense when Scripture uses it of God: 'Now to God who is able to strengthen you according to my gospel and the proclamation of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery that was kept secret for long ages' (Romans 16:25)."
"'Now to him who by the power at work within us is able to accomplish abundantly far more than all we can ask or imagine' (Eph. 3:20)."
"And here, 'Now to him who is able to keep you from falling, and to make you stand without blemish in the presence of his glory with rejoicing'(Jude 24)."
"God is able because he is the God of 'glory, majesty, power, and authority, before all time and now and forever.' Transcendent, mighty, sovereignly free, the One who will not--who cannot--be defeated: he is the God for whom no good thing is impossible."
"And he is not only able but also willing. He is our Savior, the God who came to us in Jesus Christ to do what we cannot do for ourselves."
"So, don't hold on tightly to anything else: nothing else will hold you up on the end. Do hold on to your longing for purity: there is One who can and will make it possible. And do hold on to your hope for joy: to stand firm and clean before God will be the epitome of joy."
"Go with confidence. However rough the road, you go with One who is able to bring you home."
Grace always.
Cindy |
Cindy
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2000 - 5:54 am: | |
Wendy, Thanks for your testimony above! It sounds like you have a great group to fellowship with--good friends that are open and non-judgemental! And I can just picture the beauty of the Olympic Mountains with you singing...and talking about Grace. I will be thinking and praying for you.
Grace always,
Cindy |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2000 - 4:27 pm: | |
BmorganóI love your phrase, "I landed on the cushion of grace." I certainly relate to that; it's a wonderful description!
Ritchie, I also understand how deep personal loss sometimes redirects us down the path of grace. I was still firmly and loyally Adventist (although with major cognitive dissonance) when I went through a divorce. The despair I felt was unsolvable. I knew I had sealed my eternal doom.
The day I paced in my apartment begging God to forgive me while knowing he could not was the first time I experienced real grace. In the middle of my suffocating guilt and grief, I suddenly knew I was forgiven. I cannot tell you what happenedóit was not tangible. But deep in my dying soul I knewóGod forgave me, and he still wanted me to love him and be available to him.
That was at least nine or ten years before my awakening to the truth of Adventism. But it was life-changing, and I don't know if I could have truly dealt with Adventism if I hadn't actually experienced God's grace profoundly.
And Wendy, you don't know how happy your metamorphosis makes me. I relate so well to your feelings and discoveries and to the fear and startling joyóGod is guiding you, and he will not stop! He has given you a great gift to be in the tiny congregation you have right now. Only he knows where you will eventually be, but he is giving you a place to share your love and joy in him. Perhaps your experience will forever change your friends' lives, too!
I really praise God for this web site, and I pray for all of us!
Colleen |
Maryann
| | Posted on Monday, July 17, 2000 - 11:44 pm: | |
Hi BMorgan,
It's good to see you "at it" again. I have just sorta dropped outa sight for a while. Maybe in a few months I will be able to post as much as I like to.
Maryann |
Patti
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 18, 2000 - 5:18 am: | |
Maryann,
I miss you.
I hope everything is OK with you.
My prayers are with you.
Patti |
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