| Author |
Message |
Allenette
| | Posted on Sunday, July 30, 2000 - 10:29 pm: |     |
Saw a program on the (I probably have the spelling wrong) "Oswettos" of New Guinea today on PBS (yeah I know its a PC station)
These people who didnt yet have the wheel, and live in an area of this planet where their most exalted material is the mango tree...and has been for centuries...mzybe eons...finally got infiltrated by CHRISTIAN MISSIONARIES *(Born-again type) who insisted that they stop their head-hunting religion, (well spelt out in the program) work for wages (which they were required to exchange for paper money AND TOBACCO which they soon became addicted to...to purchase the same products from their "liberators".)
put Christian clothes on, and are becoming "civilized". Now, as a nice SDA girlie, I saw the National Geographic programs back in the 60's, (and averted my eyes during the "nude scenes" ggg) but now as an old fart, my eyes are WIDE OPEN.
Anyone on here want to tell me that, essentially, what the white man gouged out of the natives on this planet, is truly more humane, overall, than what they figured out for themselves? Mind you, I'm asking you to take the scenario to a far-reaching conclusion, not just an off-the-cuff answer.
This, potentially COULD be a philosophically long-running thread on here...we'll see :-)))) |
Darrell
| | Posted on Monday, July 31, 2000 - 10:04 am: | |
Giving up their headhunting religion sounds like a good idea. But they would be better off with their mango trees than the rest of that garbage! In fact, I would consider giving up a lot of what I have for a good mango tree! |
Maryann
| | Posted on Monday, July 31, 2000 - 1:10 pm: | |
Hi Darrell,
You have over the last while had some interesting post's. Good insights (at times;-)too!
Hope to meet you sometime.
Maryann |
Steve
| | Posted on Monday, July 31, 2000 - 7:16 pm: | |
Hi Allenette,
I have a problem with any group that says you need to change to be made right with God (whatever "god" that may be.)
Societies have the right to keep civility (although that could be argued against from an anarchist position.)
When someone comes in the name of some religion or god, and says you need to change practices, then it's just the same warmed-over religiousity that various groups have tried to impose on other groups throughout the world's history.
You say that these so-called "born again" types "insisted that they stop their head-hunting religion". Insistence that anyone change, to me, seems opposed to the true Christian message, which is that, in spite of any practices, regardless of how atrocious they appear, Christ redeems us. Regardless. Christians who believe, stand fully righteous in God's eyes, regardless if they are naked, smoke whatever, are headhunters, or ruthless businessmen in corporate America (which could be argued is as, or more, deadly, than headhunting natives in some remote jungle somewhere.)
If these so-called "born again" types really believed in the power of their religion to change people, they would let the religion have it's effect on the people.
It is not a human's responsibilty to change other people (although if one asks for help making a change, then psychologists/psychiatrists/counselors and support groups are available to help.) If missionaries really believed in the message they are spreading, then they'll let the message do the work, and not themselves.
As far as what the "white man gouged out of the natives", it's ridiculous to think that one culture is superior to another culture. (Especially if a known cancer-causing agent was exchanged for headhunting. I'd argue that while you can escape a headhunter, you can't escape what tobacco may do.) However, I admit that I have difficulty in cultures where individuals/children/virgins are sacrificed to appease some god's wrath. (The Christian message is that one individual was sacrificed so other's wouldn't have to be sacrificed.)
Far reaching conclusion? If we simply tell the story of Jesus, and what He has done, what else should Christians be concerned with? If the message changes lives, let the message (God) do that. If the message doesn't change lives, then it's not a very powerful message is it?
I once was being "trained" by a Navigator (Christian) on how to witness. On a college campus, back in the seventies, we approached a young man who was sitting on a short wall by himself. Mind you, the one who was "training" me didn't tell me how to approach people, he just said to follow him and listen.
As we approached this young man, the other guy walked up to one side of him and sat down right next to him. I walked up to the other side of him and sat down right next to him. Because we were away from most other people, this young man looked back and forth at the two of us, had a frightened look on his face, and whoooosh! He took off. We had done nothing more than scare him to death.
So much for my witnessing. I think that some missionary work and some witnessing does exactly that -- frightens people. And fright doesn't change people. It only makes them run away.
It's interesting when I meet those who didn't look at the nude natives on Nat'l Geographic programs. As a young boy, my step-father would actually become excited and say things like, "Look at those, Steve!" (Although he'd be more explicit at times.) Talk about embarrasing. Although warped as it was, I wasn't taught that anyone had to go changing other people's culture. (But then, I didn't come from a religious home.)
And I agree with Darrell. I'd love a good mango tree (or just a good mango would do, right about now.)
Steve |
Breezy
| | Posted on Monday, July 31, 2000 - 10:19 pm: | |
Steve,
I have a good mango on top of my fridge. It is yours with my blessing.
Enjoy!
Wendy |
Steve
| | Posted on Monday, July 31, 2000 - 10:21 pm: | |
Wendy,
You crack me up!
I can almost e-taste it right now!
Mmmmm, that was e-licious.
Thanks, I e-joyed it.
Steve |
Breezy
| | Posted on Monday, July 31, 2000 - 10:49 pm: | |
Steve,
Glad you enjoyed it!
Now clean up your mess!
:) :) :) :)
*chuckle*
Wendy |
Maryann
| | Posted on Monday, July 31, 2000 - 10:53 pm: | |
Speaking of mangoes. I got 18 boxes of the things (cheap) and most of them are in the freezer. Really yum!!!
;-)) |
Steve
| | Posted on Monday, July 31, 2000 - 11:23 pm: | |
OK. Back to the Mango tree people.
Should we Christians go into parts of the world and try to get the natives/indigenous folks to stop doing what they've always done and start doing the "proper" behaviours, whatever we deem those behaviours to be? Refer back to Allenette's post above, of July 30th. |
Breezy
| | Posted on Monday, July 31, 2000 - 11:31 pm: | |
No we are supposed to teach them to love Jesus. The rest of their lives are none of our business. The Holy Spirit knows what it is important for them to know, and He'll make sure they know it. Who are we to decide?
Wendy |
Maryann
| | Posted on Monday, July 31, 2000 - 11:41 pm: | |
Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm,
I've wondered about that even as a kid.
The Indian's for example were very conscientious about their beliefs. Some of the beliefs were honerable and others weren't. If the Indians worshipped the "Great...........whatever" and did it from the heart and had no knowledge of the God we know, are they waiting for us in heaven? I think so!
Did the "civilization" of the Indians make them a stronger nation(s)? Did it make them into a christian nation(s)? The answer is obvious!
I guess the answer might be that if the "converters" are truly "converted" then "converting" the "un-converted" is right. If the "converters" are "un-converted", leave the "un-converted" alone and let God convert them?
Maryann |
Allenette
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 9:03 pm: | |
MaryAnn: You have scoped out what I was hinting at, and so has Steve. (Thanks guys and gals) I will continue this; not that its so important or even very relevant to ANYTHING spiritual but it is part of the religious history from time immemorial
and I truly appreciate being given the bandwidth to expand on it, on here. BUT NOT TONIGHT. ggg Seems like nearly everyone on here is about 2-3 hours EARLIER than Tennessee and I gotta get some sleep;-) Trust me, there IS a point to this but not tonight OK? ...stay tuned gggg |
Steve
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 01, 2000 - 10:23 pm: | |
Actually, Allenette, I believe that it is very relevant.
The position one takes on missions, and the idea of changing cultural practices, even when deadly (headhunting) may indicate a lot about one's Catholicism or Protestantism.
However, many Protestants revert to Catholic methods of missions, rather than just taking in the liberating message, and letting God do the work.
I think that Paul, in the book of Acts, and elsewhere, is an excellent example, that all too few follow today. Even when faced with polytheism, Paul didn't condemn. He simply preached the Good News, and he often seemed to find a way to weave the local cultural into the message (E.g., Acts 17:16-34, when he was in Athens.)
I'll be interested to hear your point.
Looking forward to more,
Steve |
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