| Author | Message | ||
| Bmorgan |
Bill, Y'all have said it all, I will just echo with my words. Wendy, do you realize that most of us here have had the same experience/confusion/trauma as you are going through right now? If not, very similar. I believe that a SDA can be grace oriented but when they fully experience the power of grace, not just intellectually, it becomes difficult (if not impossible) to remain in the Sda environs. You will find yourself at variance with the belief system, therefore conflicts are inevitable. It also becomes easier to let go of the doctrines we make into idols. The official sda's GRACE plus Salvation message, becomes less and less attractive. The joy that Christ gives is beyond comprehension. The sound of it resonates through cyberspace as so many of you express the feeling. In grace based churches People are generally kind and nonjudgemental. All churches have problems, yes, but the overwhelming sweetness and the spirit of godliness that pervade, is in great contrast to the contentious spirit that reign in many adventist circles. We demolish arguments and every pretension that sets itself up against the knowledge of God and we take captive every thought to make it obedient to Christ. 2 Cor 10:5 Soul trauma/ spiritual crisis, is the common denominator among wannabees and formers on this forum, Wendy. On this road to recovery/freedom path, there are many highs and lows, twists and turns. But the joy that flows the soul! Hallelujah! In Christ, there is freedom. Be encouraged! I don't think anyone will slam your Sabbath. At least, not grace based people. I have learnt that confusion like you are having or had is common in people belonging to and leaving groups/churches that are authoritarian, abusive, or cultic. First, they seek to be free from it, but the more they move away, the more anxious they feel. So they pull back into it and feel a sense of relief because they are back into what is comfortable and familiar. Therefore, they feel safe and right. I guess, this is we hold tightly to whatever: State of the Dead, EGW, Sabbath, traditions, anything ... However, God replaces all these with HIMSELF. May the peace of God guard your heart and mind. BMorgan An Unrepentantly joyful survivor, in Christ alone. | ||
| Loneviking |
Bill Thompson--- I know what you mean when you try to describe three hundred men singing a-capella. I go to the Church of Christ which is all vocal music. I have heard about fifty guys singing a-capella, so I can guess what about three hundred would be like! There is nothing like a CofC congregation that can sing and I'm blessed to be with one that really can. If none of you others have had the oppourtunity to hear vocal only music, sample some of the CofC's in your area. Sooner or later you'll find a congregation of great singers and what a treat! Bill, how do you contact a BSF group or find out if there is one in your area? It sounds like something I might be interested in........... | ||
| Steve |
Hi Loneviking, I attended a small, home Bible study group with some CofC folks. They would sing two or three songs each time, without instruments. WOW! They were incredible. (I understand they can use instruments in their homes, just not in the church.) The rest of us could learn some lessons about the voices we've all been given if we would spend just a little time with folks like that. Steve | ||
| Susan |
Loneviking, there's another great bible study in many areas called Community Bible Study. It is very similar to BSF. I've been very blessed to be a part of CBS for several years now in different cities. CBS is open to both women and men, they have day and evening classes. Most of the groups have a WONDERFUL children's program! I would encourage anyone out there to find one of these groups and register A.S.A.P.! It is such a blessing to share bible study with people from many different churches. It's also a wonderful place for fellowship with the body of Christ. The CBS National phone # is 703-438-8223, they can tell you if there's a class in your area and give you the phone # for the contact person of the group. God Bless! Susan | ||
| Bmorgan |
Susan and Bill, thanks for the information about the Bible Study groups CBS/BSF/. Do you know what CBS is studying this year, Susan? Someone also mentioned "Precepts." Is there a national phone number for them too? I think I need to immerse myself and engage my mind in solid Bible study. BMorgan | ||
| Billthompson |
Here is the BSF web site link: http://www.bsfinternational.org/ or call the toll free BSF information line in the United States at 877-273-3228 I'll see if I can find info on "Precepts". On Christ The Solid Rock I Stand, Bill Thompson | ||
| Joni |
BMorgan, The number for Precepts is 1-800-763-8280. I love Precepts. You have to find one in your area and the number will give you a list of teachers. To teach them you must go through trainings. But you can order the material and use it. Bill, I liked your answer. Very interesting. I see prophets in a different light since doing the Precept "Spiritual Gifts." BTW Precepts doctrine are Baptist based. But the way they are done, you really can let God lead you and trust the Holy Spirit. She always says "this is what I believe" you must come to your own conculsion. Plus she always gives all the views if you come to a trouble spot in any paticular Book of the Bible. So different from Adventism. God bless you, Joni | ||
| Billthompson |
Here is a link to the "Precepts" site: http://www.precept.org/ Wow, this was my first time to visit their web site. Someone did a great job with their web design. Sit back and watch it load! I have been in BSF for several years but have never done "Precepts". I have met many people in BSF who have also done "Precepts" and they say the two are very similar in the way they are organized, interdenominational, Bible alone, etc. Bill Thompson | ||
| Chyna |
dear wendy, as a person who has always attended church on sunday (and occasionally saturday when my adventist boyfriend and family would invite me) I'd like to tell you about how I perceived Adventists. back at school one of my friends was SDA. i also had several catholic and presbyterian friend (i come from a baptist background). none of us could understand that while she was a Christian she would not go to church. b/c she felt like she had to go on saturdays and there was not an SDA church nearby, she would not go at all. to us, we felt sad that she would miss out on worshipping God together just because it was on a different day. then when i met my ex b/f, and he told me he was SDA, certainly I didn't understand why then he wanted to go to church on Saturday, but I was happy that he was a brother in Christ. I actually thought that going to church on Saturday or Sunday was a pretty trivial issue. now, i get sad because i do realize that Paul said that we should not judge each other whatever days we choose or choose not to observe, but quite honestly, I think it's a division in the church, just like baptism via sprinkling, or immersion is a divisive doctrine. when it boiled down to it i asked this question: "do you think it is a sin to break the Sabbath?" to which my ex-b/f replied yes. which of course was the main issue of Sabbath keepers, is that they keep the sabbath and while most of the time they won't tell other Christians they think it's a sin, they do judge. so, in my own personal experience I have never been upset that someone has chosen to keep the sabbath, i have gotten sad that some people would choose to not worship God at all with other believers because it was not the day the subscribed to. in Him, Chyna | ||
| Chyna |
http://bible.crosswalk.com/InterlinearBible/ a great way to study the bible with links to original greek and hebrew words oh also something that has been rolling around in my mind is this: Heb 4:9 So there remains a Sabbath rest for the people of God. Sabbath rest = sabbatismos 1. a keeping sabbath 2. the blessed rest from toils and troubles looked for in the age to come by the true worshippers of God and true Christians it is entirely possible in my mind that since salvation is a fulfillment of the law and the substance to the shadow that our salvation IS a keeping sabbath! in the OT they sacrificed animals for forgiveness from God, but once Christ came, we no longer need to sacrifice animals. not that the *need* for forgiveness was abolished, but the means to obtaining it was *different* and *better*. by keeping find rest by observing the Sabbath in human terms it is still like us sacrificing animals for forgiveness. God has given us a better way to keep the sabbath. salvation. mind boggling isn't it? that perhaps by becoming saved we are keeping the sabbath because we are experiencing Sabbath rest through our salvation! that the fourth commandment wasn't reinstated in the New Testament because by becoming saved we keep the fourth commandment by being saved. well? thoughts? it's a bouncing jumbly mass in my mind if this is right or not, how does this sound to other people? love in Christ, Chyna | ||
| Chyna |
that we CAN'T break the sabbath because Salvation is a Keeping Sabbath! sorry, this is still rolling in my head. wow, i just e-mail that post to my ex-b/f, at the end i added a postscript that said: "i knew everything in the bible had to make sense." heehee | ||
| Darrell |
The comments about acapella singing remind me of the one time I went to a Promise Keeper's event. Most of the music was too loud for my taste, but the high point of the whole conference for me was singing "Holy, Holy, Holy" acapella with 60,000 other men! It was awesome! I can't wait for the singing in heaven. | ||
| Bmorgan |
Bill and Joni, Thank you so much for the information you shared about the Bible study groups. Chyna, What diligence! Your excitement excites me. I am humbled. I am back to square One learning the Word. God's Word is Life. Where have I been?? No need to worry about that. I know where I am now, and I know what and Who is guiding me-Christ Alone! BMorgan | ||
| Susan |
Bmorgan, I don't know what is being studied at a CBS class in your area. Each class's leaders decide what will be studied each year. So it varies from class to class. The national # that you can call, will give you that info. along with a contact person and their #. There is a day and evening class on Matt. and a day class on Romans, that I know of in my area. The classes start up in Sept. and stick to the school's schedule. CBS is also interdenominational, but I think they're a bit more relaxed than BSF. I could be wrong but that's what I've heard. Regardless, any of the studies mentioned, would certainly be a blessing to anyone seeking to get into the word. I guess what it boils down to is, which class best suits your schedule and is it close to home or work. I have the luxury of being close to at least 5 different CBS clases! This Sept. I think I'll be studying Romans. I just can't wait!!! Hope the info. helps! Blessings, Susan | ||
| Billthompson |
Wendy, Are you still following this thread? I brought up these interdenominational Bible Studies specificly for current SDAs who are restless and searching such as Wendy. They are, of course great for any Christian, but I think they are particularly ideal for SDAs. Why? Even when SDAs have intellectually gotten past the idea that going to church on Sunday will make them followers of the beast (mark of the beast), it still is hard set foot in a church on a Sunday and feel like worshiping, for some reason. So many years of programing is hard to get out from under, I think. These interdenominational Bible Studies are less threatening since they are held on a week day, include people from so many different backgrounds and thus there is a real openess. I didn't find out about these Bible Studies (BSF specificly) until I had been out of the SDA church for about 10 years. My first thought was how helpful an indepth study like this would have been during my own transition period. One of the best things about these groups is the opportunity for fellowship and study with believers from so many different backgrounds. It puts a face and name on these people we were taught to think of as less than ourselves and helps you raise your level of respect for these fellow believers. BSF is quite intense. Many liken it to seminary training without having to learn Greek and Hebrew. This is good for SDAs to see, nonSDAs serious about Bible study and studying it verse by verse right through an entire book of the Bible. Most of us believed that other Christians were superficial and did not know their Bibles. Studies such as BSF may be an eye opener for a SDA. Actually, when I was in some of the Old Testament BSF classes such as the book of Genesis or Moses, I did feel my SDA background gave me a bit of an edge. I wish I could have said the same when we came to New Testament studies like Romans. I was never well versed in any of Paul's writings in any of my 23 years in SDAism, SDA schools etc. Oh I could take a map, some colored pencils and draw all the missionary journey's of Paul, I just had no clue what he was teaching on all those missionary journeys. I'm getting carried away. God Bless, Bill Thompson | ||
| Colleentinker |
I agree with all of you about the interdenominational Bible studies. I've never been part of an organized study such as these you've mentioned, but I know many former Adventists who have. BSF has changed the way they read the Bibleóin fact, the studies literally changed their lives. Colleen | ||
| Breezy |
Hi Bill, Yes I am following right along. Thank you for the information. Unfortunately, I have been unable to locate anything where I am. I am in the uppermost part of the Olympic Peninsula in washington state and am fairly remote. I am still trying though. I don't think I would have a problem going to church on Sunday. I love my little Sabbath church though. As I've said before, it is very open and gracious. I have no issues with anyone there. I am considering a Sunday church for extra christian influence for my kids. Although it was a little discouraging to read on another thread that none of the other churches have great Sunday school like most SDA's have great Sabbath school. So I am just patiently biding my time. If you have more info about this area please let me know. Wish I had FAF here. God bless you, Wendy | ||
| Colleentinker |
Hi, Wendy! Just to give you some hopeóthere are Sunday churches in this area that have absolutely fabulous children's programs for all ages, better than anything we experienced in Adventism. It just depends on the church. We've had really good experiences with our Evangelical Free church, and I've heard that Calvary Chapel has good ones. You might check some churches just to see. Also, pray about it. God really has things like where your children need to be in his sovereign love and plan! I'm thanking God your dog returned home. I'll continue to keep you in prayer. In His love, Colleen | ||
| Tony |
Hi, :) Jesus lived a perfect, sinless life of 33 years. His perfect life saves us. He kept the Sabbath and the whole law perfectly on our behalf. [Mat 5:17, Romans 5:10,17,19] My own Sabbath keeping will NEVER save me! I am saved by 100% grace and not works. Eph 2:8-9 However, if I claim to be saved and refuse to walk with Jesus in commandment keeping out of love [John 14:15] I have no light or truth. [ 1 John 2:1-6 ] 1John 2:4(KJV) He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him. Can I truly claim to be saved by faith and grace and then refuse to allow Jesus to lead my life into a new life of obedience? [Romans 3:31, 6:15] True faith and salvation in Jesus will automatically bring forth fruit of obedience. [James 2] Not to be saved, but because I already am saved and because I am already going to heaven. And it's not me producing fruit[works], but Jesus within me. Without Him I can't do it. [John 15:1-5] And if He already lives in me as my Saviour, I am already saved by grace alone. :) With warm Christian love, Tony Valentino | ||
| Billthompson |
Wendy, At BSF's web site I see classes in Bremerton, Olympia and Port Angeles. Are any of these close enough? They have children's programs where the kids cover the same book of the Bible their parents are studying but geared more for their age level. My Children love it. As for Sunday schools, we have found wonderful programs in our area. Many churches have AWANA programs, too. This could be compared to the SDA "Pathfinders". My children love it. AWANA meets on Wednesday nights and my children go around to the neighborhood kids and invite them to come. Many who won't join us for Sunday school and church will come out on Wednesday nights for AWANA. My Children have memorized so much Scripture in AWANA. It is a great program. In Christ, Bill Thompson |
