| Author |
Message |
Lori
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2000 - 6:01 pm: |     |
Chyna,
Just read you comments on the Sabbath being 'observed' continually by our acceptance of salvation.........your comments were very timely. It is so surprising to me how the Sabbath 'concern' continues to crop up. The thing with me lately is: I find it difficult to understand WHY the Sabbath was such an issue for Israel, WHY so much of the OT is covered with reprimands for not keeping the Sabbath, when the basis for salvation has never been anything but faith! I know that is the reason that SDA's have such a difficulty with it, because it was so prominent of an issue. Why was the Sabbath emphasized so heavily for Israel.....for it to have no bearing after the cross?
Chyna, I don't know how true your correlation is between the literal Sabbath rest of the OT and the keeping of the Sabbath rest through our faith in Christ in the NT, but it sounds good to me.
If anyone knows of any texts that explain why the Sabbath was so emphasized for Israel (or do I just think it was emphasized because I was raised an Adventist?) for it to have no importance after the cross, I'll certainly like to hear what you have to say........
Lori |
Billthompson
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 02, 2000 - 8:10 pm: | |
Lori,
Here's a little more to consider. Circumcision was a REAL big deal prior to the cross but is not now. Actually, in the New Testament we are told that being circumcised of flesh was no longer a requirement but rather circumcision of the heart, a higher, spiritual application after the cross.
In the Old Testament the penalty for failing to observe the sabbath was physical death. After the cross the penalty for failing to rest in the finished work of Christ (a spiritual sabbath rest, Hebrews chapters 3&4) is spiritual death.
So many things from the Old Testament are shadows which we see the fullness of in the NT.
I could write on and on about the differences between shadow and substance, old and new, between the letter of the law and the spirit of the law, but I'll close with this verse:
He has made us competent as ministers of a NEW COVENANT--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life. Now if the ministry that brought death, which was ENGRAVED in letters on STONE [the 10 Commandments], came with glory,...fading though it was, will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? If the ministry that condemns men is glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. And if what was fading away came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!
2 Corinthians 3:6-11
Above it says, "the ministry that brings righteousness". What does that mean?
Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
Romans 3:20-24
Amen,
Bill Thompson |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2000 - 9:54 am: | |
Lori, what Bill wrote above was wonderful.
I just want to tell you an experience I had several (about 5 or 6) years ago when I was team teaching a Sabbath School class. The quarterly presented us with the subject of The Sabbath. My team teacher and I would use the quarterly's subject material but create our own lesson plans.
I knew I would not be able to teach the Sabbath the way I had been taught it. I already believed that Sabbath could not be the seal of God, and I believed it would not be the final test. I believed even then that Jesus would be the final test.
I still believed, though, that the day was somehow still significant, and I didn't know how to explain it to myself, let alone someone else. I began to pray that God would show me how to understand the Sabbath.
I remember as clearly as yesterday the morning I was out walking the dogs, praying for God to show me what to do with the Sabbath that coming weekend. I had climbed a pretty high hill across the street from our house, and I was walking along the top of it, when suddenly I had an understanding flash into my mind that nearly left me literally breathless. This was what I realized.
When God created the earth, the Seventh day was the day God rested. His work was done; his creations were in perfect and intimate union with him. When he rested, there was no command for humans to rest. They had never been OUTSIDE of rest.
When Adam and Eve sinned, their rest ended. Their souls (or spirits) were disconnected from God, and they entered sin. When God makde Israel a nation, he wanted them to begin to know His ultimate plan for them. He wanted them to remember that humanity had been created to live in rest, and that he would one day restore rest to them.
So he said, in effect, "For one day every week you will rest. You will not leave your tents. You will do absolutely no work, whether it's harvest season or whether your ewes are lambing or whether there's a flood or a drought. You will rest.
"The neighboring pagans work hard to please their gods. They never stop working to ensure that they will have large crops, fertile cattle, and offspring. They work so hard they never rest; they even sacrifice their children and their bodies to their gods.
"You, my people, will deliberately rest one in seven, and I will bless you beyond your imaginings. I will bless you beyond anything the pagans can understand. You will be prosperous, and no one, neither you nor your pagan neighbors, will ever be able to say your prosperity is because of your own hard work.
"Everyone will know that you are blessed because of ME. You will rest while I do your work."
Then, in my moment of epiphany, I realized that when Jesus died, he somehow restored the Sabbath of creation to humanity. But that was the point at which my understanding broke down. I just didn't see yet how that could be, because I still believed the literal Day meant something.
I will never forget that moment when I saw that the Sabbath of the fourth commandment was never about arbitrary oboedience as a test of faith. It was always, from the moment of its being spoken to Israel, about resting in Christ. It was always a shadow of the eternal rest in Christ that is our inheritance when we believe in His work for us.
Just as the entire sacrificial system was a temporary symbol of the death of Christ, so the weekly (as well as the monthly and yearly) Sabbath was a temporary symbol of the original and soon-to-be-restored eternal rest in Christ.
A couple of years later I finally understood how Jesus restored the Sabbath of creation to us. But I still marvel how God revealed the meaning of Sabbath to me that day on the hill, as Smokey and Charlie pulled on their leashes, and laid the groundwork for my understanding that the weekly Sabbath day was never the sacred reality.
Always, even for Israel, the Sabbath was about rest in Christ. It was a shadow of the reality that would come in the person of our Messiah, Jesus Christówho would be named Wonderful Counselor, the Mighty God, Everlasting Father, the Prince of Peace. Our Savioróin whom the fullness of the Godhead dwelledóis our Sabbath! The thought of it still makes me feel like crying!
In His rest,
Colleen |
Chyna
| | Posted on Thursday, August 03, 2000 - 11:40 am: | |
colleen, that was a wonderful way to describe it. I feel like i learned much by reading your response.
Chyna |
Tony
| | Posted on Friday, August 04, 2000 - 4:35 am: | |
Firstly, let me say that we are saved by 100% grace and NEVER works or anything we do. [Titus 3:5] However, I personally keep Gods Commandments because I am saved "today" through Jesus.
A natural response to being saved and having Christ coming into my heart has brought obedience. I obey God out of love [John 14:15], and because He has taken control of my life and given me the desire and strenght to walk now with Him in obedience. [John 15:5, 1John 2:3-6, 5:2-3] We now obey out of freedom and pure love and keeping Gods 10 Commandments is still neccessary today. But NOT to be saved, but because we are saved. [Rom 3:31, 6:15] If we "WILLFULLY" break Gods Commandments the Bible teaches us that the "TRUTH" is not in us and that we are liars to claim to know God and have a relationship with Him [1John 2:3-4]
So many try to justify "WILFULLY" breaking Gods Commandments by making excuses etc, however, this will affect the relationship with God and this allows Satan to come in between the ultimate, beautiful relationship with God during this lovely time called the "Sabbath".
Please don't allow Satan to blind you to the beautiful, intimate relationship of love and obedience. Please read this verse carefully,
Exo 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work,
Do you notice with an open heart that God says "KEEP the Sabbath HOLY"? This means to put this time aside and spend "QUALITY" time with Him. God says during this time we shall NOT "WORK!". So then to go out and "WILFULLY" break this Commandment is to wilfully go against what God says. No work EVER in this life, wether a job that pays $20,000 per year or $200,000 is more important than God.
The ULTIMATE deception of Satan is to get people breaking the Sabbath by earthly riches and gains etc. God promises to bless those who keep His Sabbath. I personally know someone who gave away his job of $100,000 a year because it involved breaking the Sabbath. He rather lost his temporary earthly riches to focus fully on God and Him alone. We cannot worship money and God.
And God promises to never let us go hungry or without food if we fully trust in Him and let Him be first in our lives. Everything else comes from Satan who creeps into our minds and convinces us that we need more money and earthly riches than what God says we need. Do you remember the old woman who gave her last two coins? [Luke 21:1-4] This was a true act from God. I do so wish I was more like this woman myself. She put God before ANY earthly things.
I personally know other people as well that gave away their jobs because it involved breaking the Sabbath, and in fact God led them into other jobs that didn't involve breaking it. God is amazing and we should TRUST Him fully! This means 100% :) Please put your trust in Him FULLY today :)
I personally come from a good background and my family are very well off and once in my life before I met Jesus I made VERY GOOD money personally. Today I have just enough to get by.
This is a decision from my own part and I am more happier now being earthly poorer knowing Jesus, than I was before very well off financially but not knowing Him at all. God asks the rich to share with the poor and this sits right now in my heart. God says work 6 days, but the Sabbath NO WORK and keep it HOLY! Many have been prepared to toss away earthly riches and jobs etc for God. Are you also willing? Are you prepared today to put God first and trust in Him fully? Reader, I pray that you are.
Please allow me to repeat, the Sabbath is not something we are legalistic about , NO NEVER, however, the person who refuses to break Gods Commandments no matter what, is the one who has God in his/her heart.
The Sabbath has always been a sign of loyalty. I know you wouldn't go out wilfully KILL, STEAL, etc, so why are you willfully breaking the 4th Commandment? Can you see what Satan has done here? He is behind the Sabbath breaking from the start.
The Sabbath has always been equated with loyalty to God and the breaking of the Sabbath has always been equated with apostacy. [Lev 26:2, Num 15:32, Neh 9:14, 10:31, 13:15-22, Isa 56:2, 6, 13, Jer 17:21-22, 24,27] The Sabbath is presented in the Bible as a test of loyalty and this is very easy to see for whoever desires the truth. The person who is loyal to God in keeping this Commandment [Exo 20:8-11] is the person who is loyal to God every day in fullness. The person who totally ignores Gods Commandment to keep this Sabbath and puts work etc before it, is the person who has not put God first in their hearts no matter how they try to justify it.
The testing function of the Sabbath will become particularly evident at the End-Time when false and true worship will intensify. End time conflict is all about "WORSHIP" and what day does God ask us to worship Him fully? the Sabbath!
I believe the Sabbath WILL BE final loyalty test. And just as Satan did in Daniels day, he will also do in End-Times. Those who he could not fool with his counterfeit and false Sabbath[Sunday - the old pagan babylonian day of SUN WORSHIP], he will now try to FORCE Gods true and loyal followers to receive his mark by legislation. Sunday legislation is being enforced soon as any bit of research will reveal to you.
Our personal relationship with God is of highest importance in life! NOTHING is as important as this. Everything else in life is secondary to our relationship with Him. eg> hobbies, leisure, work etc. The Sabbath never saves anyone, however we keep it as a sign of loyalty [Eze 20:12, 20] to Jesus and because we love Him and this time from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday is a "SPECIAL" day that God set aside and blessed and made holy. It is different from all other days.
Please read Exodus 20:8-11 with a sincere heart. Just for your information, the days were always from sundown to sundown, but in 1582AD, Satan used Pope Gregory to change the days to Midnight to Midnight! This reckoning of time is not Biblical and was used by Satan to try and mess up the Sabbath times. [Dan 7:25] I believe wilfully breaking the Sabbath can cause a person to resist and push the Holy Spirit away!
In conclusion, please pray to Jesus about this. Focus fully on Jesus and I plead with you on His behalf, please show TOTAL loyalty and allegiance to God and Him alone. Don't allow Satan to get in between you and God on this lovely day. Satan is behind all Sabbath breaking, I hope you fully realise this. Rev 14:7 and Exo 20:11 shows us some connections. Gods final warning in last days is WORSHIP! and what day does He ask us to FULLY Worship on? The Sabbath! Don't get me wrong, I worship God every day, but WOW, when the Sabbath comes along I get a double blessing during this lovely time. God did NOT bless and sanctify ANY day or EVERY day! No, only the Sabbath.[Saturday]
Those who do not do His Commandments will not receive access to the tree of life;
[KJV] Rev 22 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
We can never keep Gods Commandments perfectly, ONLY Jesus ever did, however, anyone who goes against Gods clear Commandments and wilfully breaks them has no TRUTH in them [1John 2:4]
I say all these things to encourage you to fully focus on God and I say these things our of PURE Christian love. Never to upset you! The time is close for Jesus' return and I know deep in your heart you know this fact. Please focus on Jesus fully with an open sincere heart and He will open the floodgates of heaven and bless you with so many blessings you wont know what to do with it. :)))
For more information about the Sabbath and truth behind the change to day of the sun etc. please visit my homepage.
www.Jesus2000.cjb.net
God bless you,
With heaps of Christian love and hugs,
Tony Valentino
Ps. In the fourth commandment, God is revealed as the Creator of the heavens and the earth, and is thereby distinguished from all false gods.
Dont allow anyone to tell you the Sabbath is no longer valid! the Sabbath never saves us, however, The keeping of the true Sabbath is a sign of loyalty to our true God.
We MUST Pray for Gods guidance. "Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find." Matthew 7:7 "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, ...rightly dividing the word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15 "If any man will do his will, he shall know of the doctrine, whether it be of God." John 7:17. "Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you." John 12:35. "As soon as they hear of me, they shall obey me." Psalm 18:44.
God leaves no room for doubt. He promises to keep me from error and lead me safely to all truth if and ONLY if I: (1) pray earnestly for guidance with an open and sincere heart, (2) sincerely study God's Word, and (3) follow truth as soon as I am shown by God.
With warm Christian love,
Tony Valentino |
Billthompson
| | Posted on Friday, August 04, 2000 - 9:10 am: | |
Tony,
You are obviously quite passionate about your beliefs. Most of us on this forum were once just as passionate about 7th day sabbath-keeping. We know all the arguments in favor of it, many of us made these same points earlier in our lives.
Many of us now have what we believe to be an even higher and more meaningful way of participating the sabbath rest which only salvation has to offer. Many a faithful pharisee in Christ's day observed the weekly sabbath without ever knowing this higher, eternal sabbath rest which is found only in Christ.
For me it is like this. A bride whoes husband is off at war cries over, hugs and kisses his picture good night each night. This picture is only a "shadow" of the man himself and it is quite a nice thing for her to languish her attention on this "shadow" while he is away. When He returns, however, her attention and devotion should turn to the "substance" rather than the "shadow". She should be hugging and kissing him each night rather than his picture, regardless of how precious that picture was before.
For me the sabbath was a precious shadow which I once embraced with great love and devotion. I feel I have the "substance" of that "shadow" now. I may still have fond memories of the "shadow" but for me it is time to move forward and focus my love and devotion on the "substance" of the "shadow", Christ Alone.
We may simply have to agree to diagree without being disagreable.
My God Richly Bless You,
Bill Thompson |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Friday, August 04, 2000 - 10:53 am: | |
Thank you, Bill. That was a wonderful metaphor.
It has occurred to me many times what a clever deception the Seventh-day Sabbath is for people under the New Covenant. We have made the symbol of Jesus the object of our loyalty and defense. Jesus himself gets lost in the shadow when we honor the Sabbath and mistake its point.
The Sabbath never represented Creation; it always represented God's rest. God's command to Israel to "keep it holy" was not for the sake of a sacred time. It was for the sake of sacred restórest which predated and post-dated the weekly day!
I also used to feel passionately about the Sabbath day. I truly understand the need to defend it.
But I praise God for not stopping with any of us and leaving us stagnant in our growth with him. He continues to lead us inexorably toward himself and toward deeper understanding of reality and truth. I praie him that he even surprises us with truth and joy!
In his rest,
Collen |
Lori
| | Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2000 - 7:52 am: | |
Bill and Colleen, THANKS!!!
Just to hear the way, that someone else can word something, can make alot of difference!!
Thanks ya'll,
Lori |
Patti
| | Posted on Saturday, August 05, 2000 - 3:27 pm: | |
Wonderful explanation, Bill!
Thank you.
BTW, I am having lunch with a mutual former classmate of ours on Monday. Wish you were here to join us. That would be awesome!
Patti |
Susan
| | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 7:38 pm: | |
Hi Tony, I take it you're an Adventist. I'm glad you're taking time to cyber-talk with us! I have a few questions I'd like to throw out.
-Do you believe that someone can lose their salvation? And if yes, would this include breaking what you consider to be the sabbath?
-Do you give the other 9 commandments the same energy and weight?
The reason I'm asking the last question is because of something that's puzzled me for some time. In fact my husband and I were chatting about this very thing tonight! Just a side note about my husband. He was raised as a mainstream Christian (MANY generations) and his 1st exposure to Adventism was my family. I could start another thread about his humorous reactions, to the peculiar "SDA" things he's observed! Anyway, back to my point. I know that all of humanity has a sinful nature and we'll never reach perfection this side of glory. But what we've observed is that Adventists are so busy focusing on not breaking the 4th, that they fail to try and keep the others. (I know this ties into the EGW thing) We've seen more adultry, pre-marital sex and other related problems among the Adventists we know, then any other Christian communities we've observed. Yes, I know that there are problems everywhere. But they seem to be much more prevelant in Adventist congregations. I know we've talked about this before on this site but I just find it interesting.
Something else I've thought about is, when I was Adventist I had a totally different outlook on sin. I was so busy worrying about CRAZY stuff (jewelry, meat eating, movies, sabbath observance etc.) that I had no conscience about things like sex outside of marriage, lying, stealing, gossiping and the like. Oh, I knew these things were wrong and sinful but they didn't have the same "weight", if you know what I mean. But I can honestly say that what I encountered in SDA schools I've attended, and all of the things that continue to go on at my families churches' are just downright sinful! I encountered less preoccupation with sinful behavior in the secular world and certainly less of this stuff in the Christian community. I guess that what I've concluded is that Satan will do anything to keep the focus off of Jesus. When we are truly seeking to grow in the holiness of God, then sinful desires become more detestable to us. As we become closer to God, then we should desire to live righteously. Yes we will still be sinners! But because we have the Holy Spirit in us, we become convicted of real sin. Things like meat eating really aren't sin. For me it was a stumbling block to Jesus Christ. I was feeling so guilty/unable about trying to live up to the list of "good" SDA behavior, that my real sin was distancing me from knowing God. Does anyone else out there get what I'm trying to get at? Just wondering? Sometimes I tend to be "out in left field" with my thoughts.
Thanks Tony for your comments!
Continually resting in my "Sabbath" Jesus Christ,
Susan |
Patti
| | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 7:50 pm: | |
Wow! What a story, Susan.
One which I can relate to well.
The truth is that the attitude toward the fourth commandment is that it receives more attention than the rest. Ellen herself saw a "halo" around the fourth commandment. I have a friend, another Susan on a different forum, who tells of an SDA family who is so happy that their son keeps the sabbath--in prison for armed robbery.
I suppose that we need not even mention whether the sabbath or loving one's neighbor as oneself gets more attention among the flock.....
Thanks, Susan.
Grace and peace,
Patti |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 7:56 pm: | |
Susan, yes, I understand what you're saying! My concept of sin, when I was Adventist, was literally about thinking wrong thoughts, making wrong choices, doing bad things, having bad motivesóI drove myself quite crazy trying to be good. I used to pray, "God, PLEASE make me GOOD!"
What a relief when I finally realized that all my past and future sins were forgiven, and that the truly basic SIN was having a dead soul separated from Christ. When I accepted him and was sealed with his living presence, the Holy Spirit, I died to sin. My soul came alive!
Of course my sinful body is in tension with my now-living soul. but because I am Christ's, I am alive, and He is now responsible for my motives.
It really is quite impossible to explain to people who haven't actually experienced the phenomenon of being made alive in Christ. But it is the most wonderful, liberating, demanding, accountable way of life imaginable. Quibbles over meat and jewelry become obsolete. These are not the true issues.
Speaking of issuesóand going off the subjectóisn't it amazing that Gore has chosen an Orthodox Jewish running mate? Of course Gore is not the president, but if he were to win, what effect would a Sabbath-keeping Jew in the vice-presidential office have on Sunday laws? What effect might it have on the movement to return to the 10 Commandments?
Amazing stuff, isn't it?
In His rest,
Colleen |
Chyna
| | Posted on Monday, August 07, 2000 - 8:38 pm: | |
Susan!
that was like a breath of fresh air, the insight you lent us. you are quite right :), in my experience with Adventism, we get all tied up in discussions about sabbath and other doctrinal issues, and inside i'd just think "this is not helping us grow spiritually, this is not encouraging or supportive" i'd think about all the countless hours thinking about sabbath and what it meant and wondered how we could have used that time instead to pray with each other and build each other up.
Colleen! excellent point about sunday law possibility. the thing that strikes me as a nonAdventist is the inarticulate disbelief that anyone would believe that prophecy. my ex was wondering how much the 'strange/weirdness' of SDA threw me away from the church. and lemme tell ya, it threw me off a whole lot :) ;).
Tony! :) Salvation is the fulfillment of the idea of Sabbath - rest. extra special rest given to you in salvation itself, no human energy necessary to keep it so :).
in His love,
Chyna |
Susan
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 08, 2000 - 11:29 am: | |
Patti, Colleen and Chyna thank you for your input. The wisdom of God that flows on this site always amazes me! I'm so thankful that God has directed all of us here. Someone mentioned on another thread (???) how we all have different styles. I often think about this. It's just another testimony to the awesomeness of the God we serve. We're all so different on this forum! There are the wise, compassionate, scholarly, energetic, straight-forward, analytical and many other types who post here. I'm sure that God uses each one, to touch all the different folks out there who might be lurking. None of us are here by accident. God has everthing under His control!
Patti, I know exactly what you mean. I always thought growing up, that the greatest commandment was the 4th! Oh, what a lovelier childhood mine might have been, if the "royal law" of Jesus Christ had been the focus.
Colleen, "what a relief when I finally realized that all my past and future sins were forgiven..." How beautiful! Isn't it a shame that so many people just can't grasp this simple truth?
Chyna, you are such a sweet soul! You're truly a blessing to the kingdom. It's difficult to imagine you as a young adult. You project the wisdom of someone much older! I couldn't agree with you more about spending less time on pettiness. We should all spend more time in prayer and trying to build up the Body. That's one thing I love about this forum. All of us formers are from different denominations now. But there really is a Spirit of unity among us. We can disagree on things like pedestination (sorry George, but my mind hasn't changed yet!), however we all seem to be in agreement on the essentials.
Praising God for all of you!
Susan |
Kme
| | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2000 - 12:41 pm: | |
Praise the Lord for the everyone's insight on this thread.
I personally have been grappling with this Sabbath question for several months. In fact, just recently I received a card from my parents expressing real loving concern about my practice or rather lack of, Sabbath observance. I have a lot of trouble trying to explain in a way they will "hear", what my belief is, on this subject. So I'm particularly grateful to each of you, for your understanding and gift of expression. I truly believe Christ will use these thoughts to help all of us, and others, whom I'm sure are dealing with the Sabbath question.
Bill, I appreciate your scriptural support, as well as, your point concerning the importance of circumcision before the cross, versus, after the cross, in reference to Sabbath observance before the cross, versus after the cross.
Colleen, I really thought your insight to the fact that Adam and Eve had never been OUTSIDE that rest before sin, notwithstanding the fact they were not "commanded" to keep "one" day holy, was truly revelational. And that when Jesus died he restored that continual rest, wow! It's not the literal day, it is the rest of our spirit in Christ continually.
When I read Hebrews 4, the first time after I received Christ, I thought "there it is, the command of keeping sabbath still exists". Then, when I went back and read from Hebrews 1-4, then, the rest of Hebrews, the Holy Spirit made it so clear for me, just what that Sabbath rest was! It was one of those "light bulb" moments! I couldn't believe I had been so limited and misled by my past religous beliefs. I would challange anyone who reads this and doesn't know what I'm talking about, to prayerfully read ALL of Hebrews, trying not to read with SDA preconceived ideas "glasses" on and discover "Sabbath Rest".
Lastly, Tony, I do SINCERELY appreciate your comments, because they were so classically SDA. I know this thread was enriched by the discussion promted by them. It was essentially what my parents had written to me. My prayer for you is the same as for my parents and family. In God's time.
Grace to all,
kme |
Patti
| | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2000 - 5:05 pm: | |
Dear KME,
Welcome! Glad to hear from you! I cannot add much to what you have said; you have said it so clearly. I would like to Amen! part of what you said, though. You wrote:
When I read Hebrews 4, the first time after I received Christ, I thought "there it is, the command of keeping sabbath still exists". Then, when I went back and read from Hebrews 1-4, then, the rest of Hebrews, the Holy Spirit made it so clear for me, just what that Sabbath rest was! It was one of those "light bulb" moments! I couldn't believe I had been so limited and misled by my past religous beliefs. I would challange anyone who reads this and doesn't know what I'm talking about, to prayerfully read ALL of Hebrews, trying not to read with SDA preconceived ideas "glasses" on and discover "Sabbath Rest".
Patti:
Isn't it amazing what learning the Gospel does for the Scriptures! The Bible was truly a dead book to me before the Gospel found me. And you are so right about Hebrews! It has become one of my favorite books. I stand amazed at myself because I never saw the clarity with which the plan of salvation is revealed in Hebrews. The entire book of Hebrews reveals Christ and how He is not only the fulfillment of everything that went before, but He is far SUPERIOR to it also. Starting with the very first text, the author of the Hebrews shows us that God's revelation to us in Jesus Christ was superior to any previous revelation by any of the prophets. The book continues in a very organized manner in showing how Jesus Christ is superior to the law and to the entire sanctuary schema. Jesus Christ IS the "heavenly" sanctuary. All the earthly sanctuary did was merely to foreshadow His coming.
I won't get carried away now (don't want to scare you off!). I just wanted you to know how much I agree with what you say. Please post again soon!
Grace and peace,
Patti |
Kme
| | Posted on Thursday, August 17, 2000 - 6:20 pm: | |
Thanks Patti. I haven't visited in a while. Sometimes, I have to take a mental respit(sp?) you know? It can get pretty intense trying to work through these issues.
kme |
Lydell
| | Posted on Friday, August 18, 2000 - 6:00 am: | |
Kme, there's something that is rather curious about the SDA focus on how desperately important sabbath keeping is to the world. It says something about the smallness of their view of God.
Here we have had these nearly 2,000 years of history from the time Christ died and the vast majority of the Christian faith have yet to start keeping the sabbath. In fact, a large number of them have looked at the issue and flatly rejected the idea.
He seems to have been perfectly able to get His message through on salvation and the second coming (by the way, the SDA's lie about the church not having paid any attention to the second coming until William Miller)and other essentials. He was able to get the Bible into our hands. Yet, somehow he is unable to get the message through on this thing that is supposed to be of such great importance that it is THE test.
Martyrs were going to the stake. You'd think the Lord would have straightened them out before they burned. He had a perfect opportunity to speak through their lips to encourage people to keep the sabbath. But no, their testimony had to do with Christ and the cross.
Here are these Christians all through history doing awesome things through Christ. Lives being saved, bodies being healed, minds being restored to health, just flat out miracles. And still the Lord didn't bother to lay the importance of the sabbath on them. And yes, there have always been a handful that have kept the sabbath.....but they were a very very small handful! This lack of HIS attention to the sabbath through church history SHOULD say something to the SDA.
When the Lord says something is important, He doesn't go around whispering it in a handful of ears. He shouts! |
Billthompson
| | Posted on Friday, August 18, 2000 - 1:21 pm: | |
Lydell, You just continue to bless my soul with your posts. You have come such a long way with the Lord in the past few years. May God continue to richly bless you!
Bill Thompson |
Lydell
| | Posted on Friday, August 18, 2000 - 4:17 pm: | |
Well, Bill, not just a long way.....miles and miles it feels like sometimes. Isn't it amazing when you look back and realize that you thought you knew it all. HA Then you come to find out all the stuff you were messed up on. I've said it before and I'll say it again. It is an incredibly humbling experience to stand (as we have at our church) surrounded by a bunch of folks (who, it has taken you time to realize, you use to judge as "probably not really Christians because they don't keep sabbath") and hear them praying for some prayer need of yours as if it were their very own. |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Friday, August 18, 2000 - 5:07 pm: | |
Lydell, I second your reaction to hearing other Christians pray for my needs as if they were my own. That experience was one of the first and most astonishing, life-changing experiences I had after leaving Adventism and joining the Christian community. Wow!
I am learning to realize what a priviledge it is to pray for one another.
In Him,
Colleen |
Lydell
| | Posted on Friday, August 18, 2000 - 6:04 pm: | |
Hey Bill, do you remember back those years ago e-mailing a friend of ours, Kathy A., who had left the church with David and I? Well, her hubby got saved on Easter of last year! It was only the second time he had come to church. They are active in our church, too. And so is her son and his wife. Her son and ours are on the worship team. Our other son is on the worship team at his church as well.
The Lord just keeps on giving! |
Bmorgan
| | Posted on Friday, August 18, 2000 - 10:29 pm: | |
Oh Lydell,
Talk about being humbled. Talk about formerly judging those "Sunday keepers", and now listening to them and having them pray your heart~!. That's me!
As I think of it now, I believe my WHOLE heart changing (being strangely warmed) began in November, 1999. Just I left for a trip overseas-home,-the leader of the Woman's Bible Study offered to pray for me. I was bawling by the time she was finish. How could she KNOW my heart and be so intimate in prayer?
The decision to travel was made quickly and at the time I almost resisted. It was clearly part of God's plan for the life change He was about to orchestrate in me.
I think about it, and burst out singing...
Wonderful Father, beautiful Savior, I am captured by your holy calling. Set me apart I know your are calling me to yourself. Lead me Lord, I pray.
Take me. Mold me. Use me. Walk beside me. I give my life to the Potter's hand.
In retrospect,I literally felt a load of something, lifted off my back. I began to experience a deep inner childlike joy that became extinct me when I became an Adventist.
The woman's pray really set the tone for my adventure. Lydell, I can identify with you when you say you are miles and miles away from where your were when you first came out.
Oddly enough, in November '99, I thought I had an abundance, and was content just to be able to physically leave the church. Today, nine months later, Eph 3:20 ring loud and clear; He is able to do exceeding abundant more that we ask or imagine.
With each fallout, He brings me gladness instead of mourning. I experienced fallouts in February/March and again in May. I thank God for them. I discovered this forum which affirmed/confirmed my experiences.
I thought I left Adventism. I did in body. I could not let go of the spiritual pride. It was too painful to admit I believed a lie. God took me a purge-My mind had to be renewed. The process was bitter, the results? Exhiliarating!
I welcome the further process the Lord will bring me through. The experience of the life changing reality in Jesus is worth dying for. Now I know in my heart I AM a christian.
Don't get me started about who I am in Christ. I love to tell the story of Jesus, as He writes on my heart, his word. It is the sweetest name I know.
I will sing, and speak His name to catch up on the years I was ashamed to mentioned it.
I BELONG TO JESUS.
bmorgan |
Lydell
| | Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2000 - 6:09 am: | |
That was beautiful. And now you know the real sabbath rest! Thank you Lord! |
Billthompson
| | Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2000 - 7:24 am: | |
Lydell,
Yes! I do remember corresponding with Kathy! I am so happy to hear that her husband was saved and they are actively involved in a good church as a family. These reports bless my heart and bring tears to my eyes.
I went for a long period of time at my website where I only got very negative feedback and I began to wonder if it was time to "turn out the light" on that site. Hearing these reports from early visitors to the site are a real blessing. I know the Lord can use what ever source He chooses and it would not break my heart to find He chose someone else or some other website to reach people He wants to reach. I now send many people to this site. This site is wonderful.
When I first went online there were only a couple of former SDA sites and they seemed bitter and not focused on the Gospel but rather simply on bashing the SDA church. I felt there was a need for a site with a very different tone. I am thrilled to see sites like this FAF site spring up.
Bill Thompson |
Colleentinker
| | Posted on Saturday, August 19, 2000 - 6:10 pm: | |
Again, Bill, thank you for being an internet former Adventist pioneer. I will never forget Richard bringing document after document to me for a period of about 1 1/2 to 2 years as he discovered more and more about EGW and Adventism. Documents from your site were among those!
God really does give each person a distinct work and calling in His time. Thank you for being faithful.
In His grace,
Colleen |
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