| Author | Message | ||
| Rich |
In the prayer thread, I have received many wonderful, thoughtful comments about a difficult situation between my wife and I. She being SDA, me being former SDA. While I could not argue with much of what has been said, there are issues that have not come out that I would find beneficial to discuss. I would like to start by posing this question I have which was prompted by messages from Nelda_church and Violet in the Prayer thread. I donít pretend to have the answers. I know my wife doesnít think I have them :> Here GoesÖÖ If I ñ as the husband ñ am commanded to love my wife regardless of her actions. What does that love look like when my beliefs tell me that she is deceived by a false Religion and her eternal soul could be at stake because of the beliefs of that Religion? Most of the ladies that have respond in the prayer thread over the last month or so have communicated the same message ìLove your wife regardlessî. But the discussion around this fails to address the question above. The discussion to date ñ in my thinking ñ fails to take into consideration the entire counsel of Eph 5. If you will indulge me: 22Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything. 25Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30For we are members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. 31ìFor this reason a man shall leave his father and mother and be joined to his wife, and the two shall become one flesh.î 32This is a great mystery, but I speak concerning Christ and the church. 33Nevertheless let each one of you in particular so love his own wife as himself, and let the wife see that she respects her husband. As you can see from Verse 25 - 27 where the author explains why a husband is to Love His wife as Christ loves the church. My summary would go like this: DoÖ Husbands love your wife with a Godly Love. Husbands love your wife with a sacrificial love. Husbands die to self for your wife Husbands die for your wife ñ in need be Why? or BecauseÖ To sanctify her To cleanse her How?Ö By the Word of God SOÖ She will be presentable to the father She will be without Spot This tells me that I am to be one of the means by which my wife is sanctified through the Holy Spirit. How? By creating and environment that she can grow spiritually, By protecting her from spiritual danger (false doctrine), By ensuring that she is exposed to true doctrine (i.e. biblical preaching). Now back to the cognitive dissonance. How is it loving to my wife to allow her to ìfreelyî corrupt her heart and mind with Adventist thinking and preaching? Does this not violate my duty to ìprotectî. If it does violate that duty, how am I to express this love that promotes sanctification? | ||
| Doug222 |
Rich, How is it loving that God allowed you to stumble around in the darkness of Adventistm for XX years and never condemned for your "unbelief?" He was patient and loving with you, yet somehow you don't think you owe that to your wife. | ||
| Dennis |
Rich, Your thoughts present a challenging dilemma in the area of Christian family ethics. I applaud your leadership stance in your home, by anchoring your life in solid, Biblical truth. It is often most difficult to share a new paradigm of faith, with loved ones, especially. However, your consistent Christian demeanor will certainly be an appealing and winsome strategy. Indeed, most people(including one's spouse)would rather SEE a sermon than hear one. Cherish intense moments with the Savior, and patiently wait for a miracle. God is good all the time! Dennis J. Fischer | ||
| Lazycat |
Rich, Forgive me, this is my first time posting. I have been reading this forum for a long time now. I don't claim to be any kind of a Bible scholar. But I have a loving concern for you and your family. I ask this question out of that love and concern: Do you feel that you have loved your wife as Christ loves His church? (I don't need to know the answer to that question. I am not passing any kind of judgement on you or your situation.) I understand your concerns. We are to treat others as we would like to be treated. I believe that it starts with "us" first. If "we" want to be loved, "we" have to love first. If "we" want respect "we" have to first give it and yes, earn it. If "we" want to teach, "we" have to first set an example. We are to love our enemies. God loves the sinners but hates the sin. Rom 5:8 But God demonstrates His own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. We are to be submisive to God. It isn't a "forced" submission. It comes by His love, Grace and Mercy. He loved us first. Not because of who we are, but because of who He IS. It is through that love that He first showed us, that we are able to submit to Him. I don't know about anybody else, but that didn't happen with me overnight. The more I spent time in God's word and fellowshiped with other believers, the more I started to understand His love for me. And out of that love came my love for Him. Little by little, I'm noticing more of my obedience to Him. I believe people can argue until they are blue in the face, but that does't really convince anyone. Peoples beliefs are just that, things they believe to be true. He first demonstrates Grace to us and I believe that we are to show others that same grace, mercy and love. Demonstrating to others what was first demonstrated to us (love, grace, mercy) speaks louder than words. As much as I would like to save someone I love, I can't. Only HE saves. There is a scripture that states that we are blind to His word until he removes the blinders. We are to seek His truth. If we are not seeking we will not find. This may be what is happening in your wifes situation. Pray for her, for His guidance and your patience without ceasing. He does things in His own time. Don't give up on your family. Satan is trying to destroy it. I thank God everyday that He never gave up on me. For I too was raised an SDA. Not too long ago, I learned and understood the Gospel for the first time. What freedom. It was like a weight being lifted off of my shoulders. My parents and relatives are still SDA. My husband is not a christian. But I will never give up my prayers for them. I know the power of God. He can do ALL things. | ||
| Sherry2 |
Love has boundaries, Rich. No doubt. I think I speak for the other women too, that we are not saying Love by turning a blind eye. You've read my posts and prayer requests on behalf of my own husband who would rather remain SDA then even attend a Church of God 7th Day united as a family. I can challenge his thinking in a Christian fashion, but I cannot force his hand. I can live out this True Gospel in all that I do and say, and unlike Kelly, I do not run the risk of ending up with him leaving me (more than likely) so I can wear jewelry, eat almost anything, talk about the New Covenant and it's wonders and love him right where he is at, by the grace of God, living out visibly my freedom (I'm not suggesting that you don't Kelly - you are living as a Jew to reach a Jew, just as Paul did -even when he hated the push of circumcision, he also circumsized Timothy so that he could minister effectively to the Jews). So Rich, it is right to raise your children in a way fitting to you. And you have boundaries of your own beliefs. However you cannot tell your wife what her boundaries are, nor can you thrash her down because she believes false doctrine. Do you have any idea how sheep respond who are beaten or chased - they go every which way but where you want them to. He is the Good Shepard, and He wouldn't have His sheep be abused verbally, physically or otherwise. In my home, my children may end up having to chose and being taught equally both doctrines. Maybe God will continue to soften Jon's heart where I can teach them the Gospel and no SDA doctrine. I don't know. I take that one day at a time, praying only for the knowledge of His will and the power to fulfill it. Tell me, what are you doing to win her to Christ, Rich? What are you doing? Honestly, I want to know. You admitted a day or two ago about your hatred towards your wife in your heart. And now it just sounds like again, your desperate to want to change her. It is totally understandable that you don't like this situation. Who does? You think I enjoy going to church most weeks by myself? Not at all. But God is good. And He lets me grieve with Him about this stuff when I need to so I can come back and firstly be the wife God designed me to be, and serve my husband with His love in my heart, and secondly He's teaching me to bless my Adventist "enemies" by sharing the grace of God to them, and reaching out to them. Have you blessed an Adventist today? It doesn't mean accepting or ignoring the false doctrine. What it does mean is teaching and speaking and walking from God's standpoint and being wise about how to bring God's grace into their lives so that they will be taken aback by it. I've always thought it was a lesson to watch Paul with the Athenians. He was downright angry about all the gods in their city, just as you are with your wife. Yet he didn't get hostile, he didn't berate them, condemn them, shame them, or the like. He instead, by the guidance of God I am sure, picked their one alter out "To the Unknown God" and used that alter to expound the Gospel of Jesus Christ - their Unknown God. That is the grace of God, and that's how the hearts of the families are turned back towards each other! | ||
| Violet |
Rich, I spent last night in the ER with my daughter for 5 hours. (scooter accident, she's fine just sore) In that time I spent reading the second book in the breakthrough series "Secrets of the Vine". In it the author is discussing the prarble of the vinedresser. He talks about the difference between God punishing us for doing wrong and pruning us so we can be more fruitful. Sometimes, he says, we get the two mixed up, because they both can be painful. He talks about how God wanted him to turn over his wife and kids to God, and how he did not want to. Maybe God is trying to get you to surrender your relationship with your wife to Him. Acknowldge that you have no control and that your job is to trust in Him and as you pointed out in the texts love your wife. I don't know, you are in a very difficult situation, but you are in a prime situation to have great influence for God if you just hang in there and show a love like Jesus showed us. How He loved us while we were still sinners. I hold you and your family up to Him that you may be blessed and brought closer togetherby these trials. The one thing I do know, when God is done, and you have stuck it out, and your wife sees that loyalty, if she is a woman of God, she will be devoted to you forever. She will have seen that you were willing to lay down your life for her. God Bless Vi | ||
| Nelda_church |
Why in the world would your wife want what you have "CHRISTIANITY" if it is not different from what she has? You seem to be putting yourself in GOD's place by judging her. Let the poor woman alone. As one who has been there-having husband who chose to have his way-no matter about the children or his wife, I feel that I have a little insight. I think that if your concern is for her soul and your children and not for yourself, if you feel that by strife and chaos and or divorce, you are doing the will of GOD, I suggest you keep reading that BIBLE and come to the real conclusion-you have to die to yourself and allow GOD to lead you. He will NOT lead you to strife, chaos or divorce. Just as satan has deceived us by Bible verses before (SDA), you are drumming up the verses for your wife to yield to you, and I must say you sound very much like a dyed in the wool SDA pharisee-hard headed and opinionated. I guess I do too.LOL Please, please, please listen to the folks on this forum. You can't imagine the pain you will cause your children if you don't learn to love their mother. Sincerely, Nelda | ||
| Rich |
Ok, Iíll try not to react to some of the obvious judgmental comments above. I appreciate the other thoughtful comments. Iím looking for some serious discussion on the issue. Those who wish to assume they know all that I have done in the past, and all I am doing now to show love to my wife are free to do so. I started this thread for a specific purpose. To engage in discussion on an issue that many do not seem to fully appreciate. That is the challenge of loving those who are ìunlovableî. Loving those who are in rebellion. Loving those who have hurt you. Loving those who continue to hurt you. Loving those who disrespect you. All in the context of the marriage relationship. Many of the situations that have been shared so fare ñ that I have seen ñ are from the womenís perspective. I personally cannot empathize with this, I can only sympathize. The truth is, that within the Christian marriage relationship, the wife has a unique and distinctively different role from the husband. The standard for the husband is much higher. The standard for the husband is much broader. This does not diminish the role of the wife in any sense. What it does do is create unique challenges for the husband that the wife does not face. In my case, it is these challenges that have created much of my struggle. To honor God in my home means many things to me. If my marriage relationship does not honor God, I must do something about it. I must take a leadership role in correcting the ìproblemî. That dear friends in the purpose of this discussion from my perspective. What is the ìsomethingî that I ñ or any husband - must do? The standard response is to love your wife. But that provides no real answers at all for me today since it does not help me understand the dichotomy (false or otherwise) that this creates in light of the ìcommonî view that love brings into my mind and that of most others. That is what this web site is for ñ is it not? If there are those who wish to engage in this dialog I would love this. If there is no interested in really understanding and dissecting this issue and pushing some of our common ìassumptionsî about the issues involved that is fine, the thread can be ended now. Respectfully, Rich | ||
| Sherry2 |
You've been told more then love your wife, Rich. You've been given numerous examples. Here, I'll take clips from all previous posts where people told you what love looks like ok? 1. "never condemned for your "unbelief" - therefore do not condemn her. 2."He first demonstrates Grace to us and I believe that we are to show others that same grace" 3."Pray for her" 4."Cherish intense moments with the Savior, and patiently wait for a miracle" - you cannot love her without God loving through you. 5."We are to be submisive to God" - model what you preach 6."treat others as we would like to be treated" 7."you have boundaries of your own beliefs. However you cannot tell your wife what her boundaries are, nor can you thrash her down because she believes false doctrine" 8. "Have you blessed an Adventist today?" - blessing means speaking well of. Speak well of your wife to your children. 9."do the little things that you would do if you were first married to her" 10. "Romance her, not with just dinner and flowers, but while she's cooking dinner go up behind her, touch her waist and wisper in her ear that she is pretty" 11."While she is folding laundry, help her, fold with her and put it away" 12."Get up in the morning and make her a drink and take it to her" 13."How is an unbeliever drawn to Christ? By your actions, not your words" 14."But I encourage you to analyze your motivation before you destroy your family. You can still have all your freedom in Christ and live in an Adventist atmosphere." 15."Surrender to God" 16."Think of the powerful witness when they see your unconditional acceptance of your wife, faults and all. That is not to say that you abdicate your responsibility to teach and lead them, but your actions will preach a much louder sermon than any words you can speak." 17." Rich have you gone to counseling? " 18.". I try to answer them in a neutral response. "Nana and Papa keep the Sabbath because...." I will even give them the Bible texts that my parents would. Usually they will ask me then why don't I and I will show them my point of view from the Bible and then let them think on it themselves. It shows my parents the respect the deserve, it demonstrates to my children the respect I have for my parents and my tolerance for other belief systems. It also gives me a chance to witness to them my on Bible study habits and to discuss conflicting doctrinal points of view they will come across through their life. If you do this with your children they will see a Father who is tender and respectful of his wife. They will experience a security in you as they will see that despite extreme conflict you will respect and love your wife. You will have an opportunity to explain your beliefs and compare them (remember using neutral tones: I believe she believes and no emotionally charged words.)" 19." It is that you have to work with and honor your wife from her perspective of reality. That is a TALL ORDER. But being a spiritual leader in such a delicated and difficult situation will take much bravery, thought, patience etc on your part. " 20."May I also suggest a book. It is called "Changes that Heal" By Dr. Henry Townsend" At least 20 things were brought up and much more. Now it's your turn. | ||
| Rich |
Sherry, 1. "never condemned for your "unbelief" - therefore do not condemn her. Where in scripture do you read that we are not to call Sin, Sin. For unbelief is Sin. 14Later He appeared to the eleven as they sat at the table; and He rebuked their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they did not believe those who had seen Him after He had risen. 15And He said to them, ìGo into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. 16ìHe who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned. 17ìAnd these signs will follow those who believe: In My name they will cast out demons; they will speak with new tongues; 18ìthey will take up serpents; and if they drink anything deadly, it will by no means hurt them; they will lay hands on the sick, and they will recover.î Mark 16:14-18 2."He first demonstrates Grace to us and I believe that we are to show others that same grace" Sherry, do you presume that I have not and do not show my wife Grace because I have expressed my deep distress for her actions and attitude? What is preferred in your view, not caring or being distress? 3."Pray for her" Sherry, do you presume that I do not pray daily for her? 4."Cherish intense moments with the Savior, and patiently wait for a miracle" - you cannot love her without God loving through you. Sherry, do you assume that God has not taught me that this is His problem ultimately? Further, to you advise the just ìlet go and let Godî? Please show me Chapter and verse for this Theology. 12Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling; 13for it is God who works in you both to will and to do for His good pleasure. Phil 2:12-13 ??????????? 5."We are to be submissive to God" - model what you preach Sherry, do you presume that I have not submitted to Godís leading through His Word. Do you not know that this very submission is that which has helped to create the strife. God does not promise us peace in this world. He promises that we will be have tribulation ñ In the world you will have tribulation; but be of good cheer, I have overcome the world.î John 16:33 6."treat others as we would like to be treated" Sherry, do you prefer to not be challenged in your false beliefs of God and his Word? Was it not that challenge in hearts and minds that allowed so many on this board to be brought out of the false teachings of Adventism? Discipleship is all about challenging those who call themselves children of God. 17As iron sharpens iron, So a man sharpens the countenance of his friend. Prov 27:14 7."you have boundaries of your own beliefs. However you cannot tell your wife what her boundaries are, nor can you thrash her down because she believes false doctrine" Really? Sherry, wish to say I cannot set boundaries. What is the role of the Husband? Is it not to protect ñ Spiritually, physically, emotionallyÖ I hesitate to say it but I see your use of this statement as a presumptuous challenge of the Word of God, and the role and authority of the husband in the home by stating the he cannot (has not the power to) set boundaries. Would it not be setting a boundary to tell your wife she is not to commute adultery? Sin is Sin, if it unbelief, or belief in false teaching, or adultery. God condemns all sin. Husbands are commanded to protect from all sin (Eph 5:26,27) How sad that so many in the church today hold such relativistic views on scripture. It is this kind of muddied thinking that allows people to be deceived. 8. "Have you blessed an Adventist today?" - blessing means speaking well of. Speak well of your wife to your children. Sherry, do you presume that I speak well of my wife to my children everyday, for I do. 9."do the little things that you would do if you were first married to her" This is a wonderful idea. And it is fully appropriate. Again, by your tone Sherry, you seem to presume I do not do these things. 10. "Romance her, not with just dinner and flowers, but while she's cooking dinner go up behind her, touch her waist and wisper in her ear that she is pretty" Same response to #9 11."While she is folding laundry, help her, fold with her and put it away" Same Response to #9 12."Get up in the morning and make her a drink and take it to her" Same Response to #9 13."How is an unbeliever drawn to Christ? By your actions, not your words" This is a half truthÖ A half truth is no truth at allÖ.. Allow me to share the scripture that exposes your use of this statement as unbiblical. 13For ìwhoever calls on the name of the LORD shall be saved.î 14How then shall they call on Him in whom they have not believed? And how shall they believe in Him of whom they have not heard? And how shall they hear without a preacher? 15And how shall they preach unless they are sent? As it is written: ìHow beautiful are the feet of those who preach the gospel of peace, Who bring glad tidings of good things!î Rom 10:15-17 14."But I encourage you to analyze your motivation before you destroy your family. You can still have all your freedom in Christ and live in an Adventist atmosphere." This is a false statement for the word of God says: 1There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit. 5For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit, the things of the Spirit. 6For to be carnally minded is death, but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God. Rom 8:1-8 For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15And what accord has Christ with Belial? 2 Cor 6:14b-15a 15."Surrender to God" Wonderful Counsel!!!!!!!!! 16."Think of the powerful witness when they see your unconditional acceptance of your wife, faults and all. That is not to say that you abdicate your responsibility to teach and lead them, but your actions will preach a much louder sermon than any words you can speak." That is the entire purpose for this discussion thread. How does one do this without abdicating your responsibility? However, you seem to not want to discuss this directly. 17." Rich have you gone to counseling? " Many times over many years alone and with my wife. But what is that to you? Scripture is the issue here. 18.". I try to answer them in a neutral response. "Nana and Papa keep the Sabbath because...." I will even give them the Bible texts that my parents would. Usually they will ask me then why don't I and I will show them my point of view from the Bible and then let them think on it themselves. It shows my parents the respect the deserve, it demonstrates to my children the respect I have for my parents and my tolerance for other belief systems. It also gives me a chance to witness to them my on Bible study habits and to discuss conflicting doctrinal points of view they will come across through their life. If you do this with your children they will see a Father who is tender and respectful of his wife. They will experience a security in you as they will see that despite extreme conflict you will respect and love your wife. You will have an opportunity to explain your beliefs and compare them (remember using neutral tones: I believe she believes and no emotionally charged words.)" My situation is not like this now, as it was not like this the first time I read it. It provides a good example of how to deal with a situation from the original writerís perspective. But does not address the issue of the discussion I was trying to have. 19." It is that you have to work with and honor your wife from her perspective of reality. That is a TALL ORDER. But being a spiritual leader in such a delicated and difficult situation will take much bravery, thought, patience etc on your part. " It was a true enough statement the first time it was said. Again, what is your point? 20."May I also suggest a book. It is called "Changes that Heal" By Dr. Henry Townsend" As I responded the first time I read this, I have read Townsend. What is your point. How does reading a book by Townsend address the issue of this discussion? ======================== Sherry, Frankly, I found your response not only offensive and unbiblical in many respects. Scripture, and scripture alone is our rule for faith and practice, not psychology, not doing what makes us feel good. You have selected many good comments from various people, taken them out of context to make some point that escapes me. Sherry, you seem to wish to argue but not address the scriptural principle directly. Why is that? Rich | ||
| Lori |
Hi, Rich, You have raised the questions "how to love the unlovable, those who have hurt you, etc...." these questions are the very ones that are the entire basis for the second of the greatest commands-love thy neighbor as thyself. I have just begun listening to a series of sermons on this subject of love! This "love" is a part of our spiritual growth. And, unfortunately it is a part of our spiritual growth that we more often "crash and burn" in instead of finding success. In this series of studies that I have been doing the minister has brought out that LOVE was designed by God to be a problem solver. However more often than not Love causes problems instead of solving them. The reason for this is that we get personal love confused with impersonal love. Personal love is usually based upon who the other person is and what they can offer or be for you. Impersonal love is based upon who and what you are NOT who and what the receipt of the love is. Too often believers impersonally love God and personally love selected people. This does not fulfill the plan that God has for us. When we have a personal love for God and an impersonal love for all mankind then we fulfill God's plan. We can personally love a select group of people but at times these people will do things and be things that are undesirable and unlovable it is at those times that we must already have this impersonal love to fall back on to get us through the times when we can't personally love them. This study on "love" (agapeo-personal and faleo(sp?)-impersonal) is all about how as believers that love is supposed to be a problem solving device for us instead of a problem causing device! Does this seem to be what you are wanting to know? If so, I'll try to share what I've been learning. | ||
| Lori |
PS. I was the "cultic Adventist" wife who was married to a "faith/grace believer"---God used my husbands quiet faith based stability of mind to show me how foolish I was in my legalistic mindset. It only took 13 years!!!! He never opposed me in religious issues, he never tried to convince me I was wrong. His life of stability in all circumstances spoke great volumes. He has stability through the storms of life and I lived from one fear to the next. I don't know how he did it. Other than the fact that he had magnanimious amounts of Bible Doctrine in his soul. He was even allowing me to raise his two sons in the Adventist church. The thought of what I might have done to my children sickens me now!!! However, it was the best thing he could have ever done for me. (letting me go my way without opposition) He loved me with an everlasting impersonal love!!!! And ultimately he showed me the way to learn how to personally love God-that was something I had never known before! I'm still working on that next stage of loving all mankind impersonally. I have a real problem with it!!! God gave me the opportunity to grow in that aspect twice this week!! ----I crashed and burned---- I've had a hard time listening to these tapes on "love"--they only seem to point out what a failure I am. But they also point out what I can be "in Christ"! I know that Satan does not want me to master this concept of impersonal love because if I do master this then he will no longer be able to take my happiness away by using other people. Too often our lives and our happiness are in the control of strangers. I don't want my life to be that way any more. I don't want the cruel comments, stabbing or uncaring words of another human to be what controls my happiness. Do you? That's what we do when we only have personal love for those around us. Impersonal love allows us to love people on the basis of who and what we are in Christ. God has this love all mapped out for us in his word and despite the barracks of Satan I'm going to persevere and learn this amazing technique of impersonal love! | ||
| Doug222 |
Rich, I'm not sure what there is to discuss. You seem to have all the answers already. Divorce the woman! She doesn't deserve a gem like you. I'm sure you'll discount this statement like you did nineteen of the twenty statements Sherry shared with you above. Its clear that right now there isn't anything anyone could say to you that you would listen to unless they agreed with what you've already made up your mind to do. You're not looking for discussion or answers, you're looking for confirmation and validation. Unfortunately, you'll not find that here. What you will find is acceptance for who you are and where you are at this point in your life--whether we agree with you or not. One of the things that I really value about this site is that debate and argumentation is kept to a minimum. I am afraid that to continue this discussion would amount to just that; therefore, I have said my last word on this topic. I will continue to lift you and your family up in prayer. Doug | ||
| Rich |
Lori, Thanks, Not sure I totally get what your saying since it sounds like the minister is saying impersonal love is better that personnal love. Guess it is just a matter of not being clear on the definitions. Rich | ||
| Rich |
Doug, Sorry you feel that way. Suppose it is to much to ask to support ones statments with scripture. That is the kind of reasoning I battle with my wife, maybe it is a left-over from SDAism. I've tried to do it myself many times. Bottom line, Scripture is Truth. Everything else is just opinion. You are right, I am looking for validation. validation in my understanding of God's Word. If it is wrong, I want to know. Do you? Some can deal with it, some cannot. I still struggle in this area and like to talk (type) through it. Maybe this is the wrong place. So long God's Blessings on all Rich | ||
| Sherry2 |
Yes, Rich, by having a rebuttal for all the statements said or something, you really don't sound like you're looking for ways to love. You said you wanted it....I showed how we had shared it....well you can see for yourself what your response was. I feel really badly for your family, Rich. I am truly sorry. | ||
| Sherry2 |
I quoted:1. "never condemned for your "unbelief" - therefore do not condemn her. You said:Where in scripture do you read that we are not to call Sin, Sin. For unbelief is Sin. Never said we don't call sin, sin. Rich. Do not condemn. "For God so loved the world that He gave His only Son that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life. For God DID NOT send His Son into the world to condemn the world but that the world through Him might be saved. He who believes in Him is not condemned (the glorious Gospel) but he who does not believe is condemend already becuse he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God." John 3:16, 17. We all started out condemned already. So Jesus' work was not to condemn but to redeem. How did Jesus respond to false belief, Rich? He was extremely hard on those in religious authority, but he looked on the people with tender compassion, as sheep gone astray. Jesus is your best example. Look to Him. | ||
| Lydell |
Rich, it hardly appears that you are being honest with yourself. We can only deal with what we see in writing. No one here lives in your home and can observe what is happening there. We can only go with what we see in words on the screen. Add up the total volume of what you have said, and weigh it all out. Folks here are giving you the best they can come up with. You really need to take that into consideration and not have a kneejerk reaction if they don't come up with what you desire to hear. I've seen these folks talk with others over time and can say that they honestly try to help, not hurt. To offer guidance and not judgement. You asked for specific examles of things you can do. Sherry2 pointed out to you specific examples that folks have given you. It should be helping you to hear from the wives. After all, this should give you an idea of where your wife is mentally and emotionally and why your battle is so strong. If you don't take that into consideration, then you can expect to get no where with your wife. Specifically, what the wives here have been trying to tell you is this: Submission has two parts. First of all the leadership has to be coming from a heart of true love. It doesn't come from a desire to get in the face of another and condemn them. It doesn't come from a desire to control another. It doesn't come from a desire to make another cry "uncle". The leadership love comes from I Cor. 13. It reflects totally the love of the Father. (And NO I am NOT condemning you and saying you haven't been doing this with your wife. I can't see into your life or your home. I'm talking generally here. You have to examine yourself honestly and see if this is who you are and how you have been living your life in the past and if it is what your motives now reflect. Folks here have been trying to tell you that from the words they see on the screen, remember that is all we can go by, it appears to them that there is a problem in the area of your motives. Would you rather people here be straight with you, give you what they see to be honest help, or stroke your feelings?) The leader can never ever force the submission. The second part is that submission is an act of the will on the part of the wife. She must choose to submit. And yes, her choice has to come from her heart of love as well. If it is forced, then it is not a choice, and can certainly not truly be the kind of submission you desire in your wife. I assume that what you are looking for is for your wife to follow your leadership in the home, and not just for you to lead. But what Christ calls you to do is lead your home, not to dictate your home. Your example then would be the good shepherds leadership, wouldn't it? Why do the sheep follow the shepherd? Because he commands them to go in a certain direction? Or because they have come to know from experience that He loves and cares for and defends them? You have to walk in front of someone to lead them. You can't be going behind them berating them. (I'm overstating the example, not accusing you of wife abuse!) I recently read, A Shepherd Looks at Psalm 23. You know, in there the author notes that the shepherd doesn't use the rod to beat the sheep. If you want your wife to follow your lead, she has to see something desireable to follow. What does she see in you? Do you show the love of Christ in your attitudes, actions, and words towards others, including her and the children? Does she see you in love with God? Is your life one that is peaceful and joyful? Are your words at home positive or negative? Do you speak more of the mercy and love of God, or His judgment? Do you willingly give yourself in service to others? For your wife to willingly follow you, she is going to have to see that your actions reflect your words. Are you doing that? I'm not picking on you, no one here is picking on you. Our point is that in this whole issue of leadership in the home you are first going to have to do serious self evaluation of your own life and motives. It doesn't matter what else the scriptures are telling you to do if your motives are wrong. Again, all we can do is throw out stuff for you to think about and honestly examine yourself to see if it fits. We can't address your wife and what she SHOULD do, she isn't listening. You are. You can only control what you do. You know Rich, your reaction to what you have seen so far is exactly the reaction that your wife is having when you try to tell her something she doesn't want to hear. Doesn't feel good does it? Please think about that! You have taken it that we are condemning you when we aren't. You take it that we are telling you to do something that is unscriptural, and we aren't. We are trying to point out to you some Biblical facts that you don't want to look at because you are clinging to something else, just like your wife. You do have truth in your hands, put you have overlooked the first steps, examining your motives and making sure they are pure. Your wife does have some truth, too, after all. What is it that she has missed? Are you able to look at your wife and see your wife, and not see the SDA church? We ALL here have found that this is a huge battle. We MUST separate the individual who is caught up in lies from the organization itself. We can't speak to the adventist as if they were the denominational leadership, for they are only an individual, and a deceived one at that. Christ worked with you over an ample period of time, I am sure. Think back very carefully. Did he do it at the very beginning by challenging you? Was that the very first thing He did? (I think all of us here can tell you that as we have thought back we have realized that the challenging our beliefs only came after we had moved into the process a ways, am I right folks?) Or was it perhaps that He stirred in you a hunger for more? How did he accomplish that? How can you do the same for your wife? | ||
| Lydell |
Short version of the above: What is your goal? Is it for your wife to "obey" you, or do you want your wife and children to enjoy freedom in Christ? If you don't know what your goal is, then you will never reach it. | ||
| Lori |
Hi, Rich, Impersonal love is superior to personal love!!! Impersonal love allows you to love the unlovable. BECAUSE you are loving them on the basis of who you are in Christ NOT because of what they are or what they do. Impersonal love operates independently of emotional constraints. Personal love operates mainly from emotion--emotions change with circumstances! Impersonal love overcomes bitterness, anger, fear, self-pity, pride,etc...If we could all overcome these "feelings" and love others inspite of the way they made us feel and inspite of the way their actions were received wouldn't it be easier to love them? This is the difference between impersonal and personal love. Which love has more virtue? In the category of marriage: Emotional activity is designed to operate in subordination to the absolutes of Bible doctrine that resides in our mind (the more Bible doctrine in the mind the more our emotions have the opportunity to be in control) Just as God created the man as the authority over the woman (Gen 3:16; Eph. 5:22,23; Col. 3:18; 1 Peter 3:1)so He also has designed for the mind (filled with Bible doctrine) to govern our emotions. The mind filled with Bible Doctrines is analogous to the husband, while emotion is analogous to the wife. The wife was created to respond to her husband, just as emotion is intended to respond to the content of the mind. A woman is a responder to man. Usually a mans happiness and fulfillment comes from his job; a womans happiness and fulfillment come from her husband. If the man withholds love based upon the fact of how the woman acts (this woman does not have Bible doctrine governing her emotions because she does not believe "true doctrine") then how is the woman going to respond to this lack of love? Not in positive manner by any means!!! She is going to respond very negatively. Take the life of Hosea for an example. Hosea had virtuous love (personal and impersonal love for his wife Gomer) When personal love failed (Gomer was unlovable as she pursued other lovers, she even left Hosea and he had to pay to get her back!)Hosea still loved her on the basis of what he was instead of on the basis of what she was. How would the story have ended if Hosea had retracted his love for his wife? Had divorced her and moved on? Granted your circumstances don't involve adultery but the principles of the marriage contract are valid. Actually, Hosea had Biblical reason to divorce Gomer (just as God has valid reason to rid Himself of us but He hasn't) but virtue love/impersonal love (the same love that God has for all mankind) overlooked this "discrepancy" and persevered. Rich, what do you think God wants you to do in your circumstances? I know that you have been praying and bringing your petitions before him. The turmoil in your life seems to be tremendous. What is your actual petition to God and what is your true desire? Are they the same or are they different? I am speculating that your petition is for wife to accept Adventism as false and embrace faith and grace for salvation. This is a good thing to ask for. However, it involves the volition of another person and is not within your control or God's. God can present all the circumstances that CAN change a person but their volition still determines the outcome. I know in my own relationships with SDA family that I want them to be like me (accept Adventism for what it is and move away from it) not only for their sake but for mine also. If my parents would accept what I have accepted it would be alot easier for me to be around them! My point is: My petition for others to reject the false doctrines of Adventism is directing connected to my desire for PEACE in my relationships with them. Petition--for family member see the truth, place all confidence in the gospel message for salvation. Desire--less conflict, more peace for me because they finally accept salvation in the same manner that I have. The petition is a good one, but can not be granted without the person positively responding to the gospel message. The desire, however, can be received even if you don't get what you petitioned for. God can give you that peace even if you remain in conflict concerning religion. Maybe that is what God is trying to show you. That His peace can be found in all circumstances. Is it possible that this conflict between you and your wife is a means that God is using to get you to rely on him for ALL inner happiness? Your peace is not dependent on what you wife decides to do. Your peace is dependent upon your volition to remain in God's plan for you. And God's plan is always working to make us self sufficient (apart from any other human) because we are relying on him. Isn't your petition for your wife to change based upon the fact that it would make things easier for you? My petition regarding my parents was certainly based upon that statement. I wanted them to change because MY life would be easier if they did. And when God didn't immediately make that happen...I responded in a bitter manner toward my parents (I lacked impersonal love; I still do sometimes) but it opened by eyes to the self desire on my part. I wasn't just interested in their salvation--I was interested in me being able to do and be what I wanted to be without them treating me like I was "lost". Slowly God has been able to make me see these things for what they are. I've been able to salvage my relationship with my parents inspite of our difference in beliefs. I'm learning to love them even though they make a big deal out of a day and a big show out of whats clean and unclean. For me to vehemently oppose them, to frontally assault them on these matters only causes them to respond negatively to me. (What kind of gospel message am I sending when I act that way?) It only makes them grab a firmer hold onto what they have! It doesn't make them want to take a look at what I have! In Adventist minds we represent the Mark of the Beast because we have rejected their belief about the Sabbath! We are the enemy! So how does the enemy get "on the inside"? Do we get there by frontal attacks? Do we get their by trampling on their foundations? --NO-- This only reinforces how "right" they are. How do we get in? We "love" ourselves in! We love them even though they believe in "useless doctrines". We show them love when they condemn us. Yes, this kind of love is impossible apart from Christ. This kind of love is not personal love for that person. This love is the virtuous love of God that allows us to love and respond in love to the unlovable, to those who reject us and those who condemn us. Your wife probably doesn't love you when you "don't do the Adventist thing". Just as you don't love her because she wants to do the Adventist thing. If you could love your wife while she "does the Adventist thing", if you could show her that love? If she could see that your love for her superceded how she acted and what she stood for while in her own heart she knew that she was unable to reciprocate to you in the same manner don't you think that this would have an impact? Think of how betrayed your wife must feel. She married an Adventist (just like the church told her to) thinking she would never have that conflict of marrying outside the church and now you have "changed"! I have a friend whose husband left the church, he was pastors kid and he's left the church and become an agnostic! (she is still Adventist) She feels so betrayed, she did the safe thing, she married a SDA and now she is in a position of conflict in the home because of what her husband decided to do. Her husband is rejecting God altogether and telling her that if she would just read certain books that she would see how ridiculous the concept of God is. I know this is a little different circumstances than leaving and fully embracing the gospel message but both circumstances represent the epitomy of evil to the Adventist mind. Only the love of God (impersonal love not related to action or circumstance) can reach pass this barrier that Adventist place between themselves and those who reject their brand of truth. Frontal assaults only bring forth more "E.W. reinforcements". My parents have E.W. books out all over the place (mostly end time events books) since I stated my opposition to their beliefs. Where does an Adventist run when they feel most challenge? --to sit on the lap of Ellen White Where will an Adventist go if they feel the unconditional love of God from others? --directly into Christ This is what got my attention. The unconditional love/the accepting attitude from non-Adventist/ the "if you feel that the Sabbath is important than you need to keep it" comments from Sunday worshippers! These are the things that made me say "maybe I should look deeper into what these people have"? They certainly have something I don't! (They had acceptance of others inspite of their different opinions) As former Adventist what makes us any different than what we left if we still are excluding others on the basis of what they believe? As Adventist we excluded non-Adventist and as former Adventist we exclude Adventist. How are we different? We are still finding ourselves superior to other people who believe in God's Son? You have the right idea, Rich. God has planted within you the need to find out Biblically what your response to her should be. You will know you are headed in the right direction when your decisions bring forth an inner peace inspite of outer conflict. |
