| Author |
Message |
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
| | Posted on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 6:00 am: |     |
Ok folks..gotta share this...I'm still flipped...but I shouldn't be. It's just I'm so not there any longer....well last night I was looking up Michigan waterfalls, and guess what? The first website that comes up is operated by a SDA!!! Is that a coincidence or God? So he's attached to the Munising Church, which I knew some people from. And he was advertising this Christian musical group. So I checked it out to see if it was Christian or SDA...Well you guessed it...SDA. So folks, I e-mailed them both. God's gonna do what He wants to do, right? And I'm not perfect, I just pray He tells me what to say and then start writing. Well here is what I wrote and here is what the musician wrote back.
"Hi there. I stumbled on your site. I found it very interesting that you happen to be SDA. I was a SDA for 20 years. I am no longer, and consider myself a Christian only and am part of a Former Adventist Fellowship. You are welcome to visit our website at http://rtinker.powweb.com/discus/ I enjoyed reading your lyrics. Sounds like some beautiful music. God's grace is totally awesome and there is none like it. I wanted to say 'hi' and to also just ask you to think about something that was recently said by the GC President. Jan Paulsen, General Conference President recently made this quote: "We shun the perception of being arrogant, and we don't want to come across as being overly exclusive, but at the same time we believe that being Seventh-day Adventists has direct bearing on our salvation; that while a believer can be saved as a Catholic, I would risk my whole spiritual life and salvation were I to leave what I am now and join any other community."
full story here:
http://www.adventistreview.org/2002-1524/story3.html
Do you believe that being SDA has a direct bearing on your salvation? Your music sounds as if you believe Jesus is your sufficiency, and not a denomination plus Jesus. What do you believe? I am part of a group of former adventists praying for the change within SDAism that the true Gospel of Jesus would be taught, and those who are seeking to leave can find a rich life in Christ and know salvation only through Him.
God's blessings to you,
Sherry Reinbold from lower Michigan"
she writes:
"Hello!
You sound like one who wants a plain answer, so here it goes. 
I do not consider myself a Seventh-day Adventist. I consider myself a
disciple of Jesus who attends a Seventh-day Adventist Church. I attend the
Seventh-day Adventist Church because of all the denominations available to
me locally, the SDA church is the one closest to what I know to be true. I
would probably also feel comfortable in a messianic Jewish community,
perhaps more so, as our family celebrates the biblical holidays of Lev.23.
I was raised in the SDA church. I have yet to find a flaw in the early
teachings of the church or the writings of Ellen White. I find lots of
flaws in the interpretation of early teachings and the interpretations of
the writings of Ellen White. Yes, it sure can be frustrating! The church
seems unwilling to change or grow. I don't think you will ever find the
church as a denomination accepting that the remnant may be something other
than themselves.
I view the SDA church as the modern equivalent of the ancient Jewish
nation. They had the truth and the Messiah was in their midst, yet they
were so far from God in their hearts that they turned Him over for
execution. History repeats itself. Should we expect anything different?
The 144,000 of Revelation are virgins. In one sense they are spiritual
virgins, who have not defiled themselves with ANY church but have been
faithful only to Christ.
Don't wait for a change or expect one. To the contrary, expect the SDA
church as a unit to commit an abomination that causes desolation just as
the ancient Jewish nation did. But be faithful to Christ and keep His
commands and do not waiver from the light found in the SDA church.
God bless,
Rondi Olson" |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 7:28 am: | |
Is it me or does this person sound schizophrenic? As I read through their response, I had a hard time seeing which side of the fence they stood on. They have never found any flaws in the teachings of the church or writings of EGW, but they find flaws in the interpretation of the same. But, the SDA Church is the closest to what she knows to be true (that seems to be the standard SDA answer, which usually means, "that's what they told me in the Revelation Seminar"). The 144,000 are people who have not been defiled by ANY church (I was almost shouting when I read that), then she wraps up by saying don't waiver from the light found in the SDA church.
I readily admit that I'm not the brightest rock in the box, but I am thoroughly confused now (by her letter, not by what I believe). Thanks for sharing Sherry. That was an awesome letter you wrote to her--very non-threatening, but straight to the point.
In His Grace
Doug |
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
| | Posted on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 9:22 am: | |
can't say my response was so great..did not bathe in prayer..responded in the flesh..anyhow take a read at my poor writing and her response...would anyone like to help me here?
Wow!! I'm so amazed. Bless your heart! Ellen plagerized like crazy and
some of the things she borrowed from were even fictional accounts. You must
know this? The Veltman studies conducted by the SDA church itself? Jesus
loves you but your faith must be in Him alone and not a denomination. Bless
your heart!! I was floored when I read Walter Rae's book "The White Lie"
that showed EGWplagerism back to back with original text she borrowed from.
And he loved her and her writings and was an SDA pastor! He stumbled on the
truth...he wasn't looking for it. I too was into her writings. I wept for
days when I found out the truth. And then the realization that in the Bible
over and over again, it says that Jesus sat down at the right hand of God
and in the Most Holy Place and not the Holy, where you can't sit down next
to God. Yet in her Great Controversy, she was "shown" Jesus in the Holy
until 1844 and then the Most Holy. Please examine this. It's the Word of
God or the words of Ellen. I made that choice, and am so thrilled in love
with serving totally Jesus now. Since you are interested in Jewish things
(maybe you are Jewish?), you must know that in Hebrews, Jesus in not an
Aaronic priest. He is pictured from a better order, the order of
Melchizedek (Hebrews ch. 5 and 6). Yet Ellen saw him in vision in Aaronic
robes serving and part of that priesthood. That stands directly against The
Bible. Did you know that?
But most of all, I am concerned that you base salvation based on a
denomination? You wrote that churches will not accept a remnant other than
maybe themselves. I will tell you from living amonst many different
Christian believers, what you say is not true. They accept there is a
remnant in the entire body of Christ and not strictly a denomination. And
most do not consider that theirs is the right one. That's considered
blasphemy against the Scriptures, whether Baptist, CRC, non-denominational,
Weslyan, Methodist, and many others.
Thank you for responding. I greatly appreciate it. There are some beautiful
messianic communities. Maybe you should check out Jews for Jesus. We had a
Jewish man show us the Passover as observed by Jews at our church. I've had
a few talks with Christian Jews in our community. What you suggest you
believe, they consider blasphemy as well.
I look forward to hearing from you some more. Thank you for sharing.
Blessings,
Sherry Reinbold
Hmmm...I may have missed something in my first two readings..so I apologize
and ask forgiveness. Are you saying you will never find the SDA church
accepting that the remnant may be something other than themselves??? I'm
sorry if I misunderstood with my first letter. Please forgive me. Are you
familiar with Jews for Jesus though? Are you a Jew? If not, were you part
of the Worldwide Church of God at any point? I know of at least 3 churches
that follow similar doctrines as SDA without the remnant clause, and
salvation not attached to keeping the law, but in Christ 100%. Do you
believe salvation is through keeping the law? Thanks again. Again I
apologize if I misunderstood...I'm about sure I did. 
In Christ,
Sherry Reinbold
Dear Sherry,
As an illustration, may I point out that the Bible itself has the same
short comings you describe in the writings of Ellen White? Thanks to my
Jewish friends, I've really had an education. I have had to conclude that
one does not base truth on whether or not one borrowed from others writing
(it was considered an acceptable practice in the 1800's) but whether it is
Spirit filled. Did you know that many books of the New Testament are
compilations of earlier writings? That parts were changed and removed
because of differences in theology as late as 1000 AD? Even as late as the
reformation, the scriptures were being changed. Luther removed many books
from the Catholic cannon and made a "new" Protestant Bible. Some books,
like James, were put back in centuries later, others, like the Maccabees,
are not found in your bible today. There were many gospels, including
those by Thomas and Mary Magdalene. Why aren't they in our Bibles? If you
want to know more about it, you can check out your religion section in your
local library. Former Messianic Jews have a lot to say about the short
comings of the New Testament, not unlike former Adventists have a lot to
say about Ellen White. Or watch "From Jesus to Christ" that was aired
by PBS. I also understand that agnostics and Muslims enjoy tearing apart
the whole Bible. I have heard Muhammad Ali loves reading the Bible to
criticize it and show how imperfect it is next to the Koran. Maybe we
should check out Islam? I hear Buddism has a lot of good points. Okay
that's a bad joke.
The point is, there is always room for doubt and questioning. Many
Messianic Jews leave Jesus when they find inconsistencies in the New
Testament, and return to pure Torah teaching. You are encouraging me to
disregard Ellen White, while some of my former Messianic Jewish friends are
encouraging me to leave Christ. In both cases, I have found consistency
and truth. I have studied Hebrews in the original Greek. I have compared
it to the writings of Ellen White. What appears to be inconsistencies are
pieces in a puzzle that when put together are a beautiful portrait of Jesus
and salvation.
Of course you know no one can claim to have total truth on this earth.
There are many sides to each story. My perspective is differant from
yours. I have read Walter Rea's book too. I do not agree with its
conclusions.
Please be careful. You seem eager to get people out of the Seventh-day
Adventist church. But are there not souls needing to be saved in that
church too? Are there not those who need to hear the gospel? Should all
who trust Jesus only for their salvation come out to leave the church in
darkness?
Rather than tearing down a person or a denomination, let us all lift up
Christ. Let us look at His beauty and the love and patience He had with
even those who were plotting to kill Him. Let us not compare ourselves to
other men, but look at ourselves in the light of the cross. I was the one
who wounded my Lord, and placed the burden of sin on His shoulders that
broke His heart and took His life.
I know you went through a lot to leave a denomination and follow Jesus. I
praise God that you have found salvation in Him. But please be careful
when judging others by what has happened in your life. Share your
testimony, yes! Let everyone know you were an Adventist, and that you felt
lost and hopeless. Share how Christ lifted you from despair and gave you
life. But let the focus be on Jesus, and not a faulty church or a human
prophet. I think the rest will be understood. Please keep from
argument and debates. Let us be like Paul and "preach nothing but Christ
and Him crucified."
To share my testimony some, I used to feel that singing before crowds of
people and telling them of Jesus was my purpose in witnessing. I felt it
was my duty to show people their need of salvation. But not many listened.
I have since learned that my most effetive witness is doing a job well,
showing kindness to my fellow brother, and finding needs and filling them.
Now people come to me and ask, "Girl, how do you do it all? How do you
keep it all together?" My answer is "Jesus," and people listen.
You are a precious child of God. Glorify Him in all you say and do. May
God continue to lead you. May He continue to lead me.
We'll meet in heaven,
Rondi Olson |
Lydell (Lydell)
| | Posted on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 11:49 am: | |
Sherry, that is really sad. She has some of the right words, yet misses the picture that Christ is IT as in ALL of IT, no SDA church needed.
Our experience has been that we have on average 3 chances to communicate truth to someone who contacts us via the Internet. So, this being number 3 for you, I'd say pray heavily before your next message. Chances are HUGE that her answer will be, essentially, "don't ever write me again."
So ask the Lord what is THE issue that needs to be addressed with her. What is THE seed that He wants planted more than all others. More on Christ having already entered the Most Holy Place, more on the security of the believer, something about the believer having no need to fear what will happen in the future, etc.
Take a deep breath, ask for the Spirit's guidance, and read carefully back thru what she has written asking Him to make the ONE issue leap out at you. Only He knows where the chink is in the SDA shield that will allow some light of truth to come in. Praying for you! (And I think you have done quite well here, by the way.)
Hmm, maybe you could challenge her to see if her teachings at her church are based on the Word of God only, or heavy doses of EGW instead. I seem to remember that some have had their eyes opened by being issued a challenge to keep a running total of EGW quotes vs. Bible quotes heard in their church, Sabbath School, quarterlies, magazines, etc. hm |
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
| | Posted on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 12:00 pm: | |
Here's what I wrote:
Hi Rondi,
Interesting conversation we are having. You've addressed a wide range of things so I will take your letter by parts to address certain issues.
You brought up the additional writings. What an interesting topic. Have you done research for yourself into this? I'm quite aware of these other gospels and also why they were excluded. Let me share some quotes from the gospel of Thomas for example. When you read it, does this stand with what Jesus taught through the rest of Scriptures old and new? I think you will find it doesn't at all. Here goes: Jesus says "Split wood; I am there. Lift up a stone, and you will find me there." That's pantheism. Another quote: "Let Mary go away from us, because women are not worthy of life." And this one: Jesus is said to say this "Lo, I shall lead her in order to make her a male, so that she too may become a living spirit, resembling you males. For every woman who makes herself male will enter into the kingdom of heaven." Is that coorespondant to the teaching of the 4 Gospels? If you would like to study more in depthm tgere are many books available by people with doctorates and archaeologists that can stand beside the authenticity of Scriptures. From Princeton Theological Seminary, Benjamin Warfield (w/4 doctorates) said this "The New testament is unrivaled among ancient writing in the purity of its text as actually transmitted and kept in use. I have found that most SDA's will tear down the authenticity and purity of the Word of God to keep Ellen White, just as you did with your first sentence. Be a true scholar and look into this more in depth. Some books I suggest, but certainly be a Berean and ask God for wisdom: The Canon of Scripture by F.F. Bruce, 1988. The Canon of the New Tastment by Bruce M. Metzger 1987, The Historical Jesus by Gary Habermas, 1996, Jesus and Christian Originis outside the New Testament by F.F. Bruce, 1974. There are many, many more that take a scholarly approach of ancient writings and what they support and what they don't.
You also talk of the shortcomings of the New Testament. If there are parts that should be included, do you not think God will take care of that? However the text we have today though easier to read because put in our language is not corrupted from original writings. Every person can get Hebrew and greek dictionaries to understand the originals and see what is said and how it stands true today. You are placing doubt on the Word of God instead of defending the Word of God. Again, I suggest you do some deeper study. A good book to start with that will give you tons of resources to search for yourself is Lee Strobel's "The Case for Christ", a former agnostic who came to Christ by searching out historical information (he has a Masters of Studies in Law from Yale and is used to investigating things thoroughly) to find out what was true. It will help you place your confidence in God and His Word I believe. The historical evidence is awesome, yet alone, changed lives. Ellen's writings are not the same as Scripture. And Scripture has stood the test of time and has not been altered in such a way to mar it or take away from Jesus.
You made statements about Ali and the Koran. Have you read the Koran? Have you examined Buddhism? I cannot say I've examined Buddhism very much, but I have Moslem and the Koran. See it for yourself, and if the Holy Spirit is in you, you will see how corrupt it is and how it does not teach what Jesus did.
You say your messianic Jewish friends are encouraging you to leave Christ? How is that possible? They believe in Jesus too. That is what Messianic Jews are about. There is a wonderful Messianic site that tells their beliefs. http://messianicbureau.org/statment.htm
You mentioned about why I was seeking to lead people out of SDAism when there are others who need the Gospel. Remember that Paulsen quote I sent you? If your salvation is based on Jesus plus the denomination, you are not saved. Many SDA's are in fact lost. And some aren't. But why should I not reach out to the people I spent 20 years with? And show the deception? The Bible is clear we are to recognize false prophets, and expose the people to God's truth so they be not deceived or to rescue them. This is plainly what I am doing. Who ministers better to a Mormon then an ex-Mormon? Who knows better what it's like to come out of Wiccan and become a Christian and minister to other Wiccans? Paul said he became a Jew to the Jew, a slave to the slave.....etc. to win them to Christ. I minister to both SDA's, formers, and anyone else God choses to put in my path. It was no accident that I ran into your site. I know that. You believe in Ellen White's writing, and therefore though the Bible clearly contradicts 1844 and her visions about it, you may not understand, but many of see that the foundation of SDAism was based on lies of the devil, not the truth of Scripture. You are right, there is corruption in every church. But I'm first and foremost concerned with the roots of where they came out of it. Was the foundation on Christ but they wandered, or was the foundation on sinking sand from the start? That is why I differentiate in helping people come out of SDAism, or any other cultic church. My life is a testimony that there is life outside of Adventism and it's in trusting Christ fully. Therefore that defeats the lie that Satan has told the church that to leave would mean their damnation and people who leave never really have peace or God in their life. Do you know what a huge blessing it has been for those who have been dying on the inside and terrified to leave? It's been awesome to see people "dancing in the streets" as it were praising God for His grace that they never ever had as an SDA. Whatever it is, whether I talk to one, or not to another is a Spirit led thing. Some I do not have God's permission to talk about the deceptions of the church, and others I do. God's gotta be in charge.
You wrote:Rather than tearing down a person or a denomination, let us all lift up
> Christ. Let us look at His beauty and the love and patience He had with
> even those who were plotting to kill Him. Let us not compare ourselves to
> other men, but look at ourselves in the light of the cross. I was the one
> who wounded my Lord, and placed the burden of sin on His shoulders that
> broke His heart and took His life.
>
> I know you went through a lot to leave a denomination and follow Jesus. I
> praise God that you have found salvation in Him. But please be careful
> when judging others by what has happened in your life. Share your
> testimony, yes! Let everyone know you were an Adventist, and that you felt
> lost and hopeless. Share how Christ lifted you from despair and gave you
> life. But let the focus be on Jesus, and not a faulty church or a human
> prophet. I think the rest will be understood. Please keep from
> argument and debates. Let us be like Paul and "preach nothing but Christ
> and Him crucified."
I totally agree with you. Comparing ourselves to other men is not right. And yes, I deserve hell for my actions towards my Lord and Savior no doubt. He gave me Life abundant and free because He loves me, and that is an amazing thing! It is awesome to be loved by Him, forgiven by Him, enjoying His presence, believing and knowing Him, having His peace, and bringing Him glory because of what He did in my life. He saved me from hell, both earthly one and judment one both! He has become my Sabbath rest 24/7. I do not seek to tear down a person, but if a false prophet prophecies, the Bible is very clear to stand against that person. Study what the Bible's standards are for a true and a false prophet. It's eye opening. And as I said, if the denomination is built on sinking sand, I am attacking Satan's lies, not just an earthly denomination. "We wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, powers, and the rulers of the darkness of this world."
You said: My answer is "Jesus," and people listen. I couldn't agree more.
You said:You are a precious child of God. Glorify Him in all you say and do. May
God continue to lead you. May He continue to lead me.
Yes and likewise to you as well.
Blessings!!
Sherry Reinbold |
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
| | Posted on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 2:03 pm: | |
I did pray over that one much more this time. I am operating on 1 1/2 hrs of sleep though and am a bit crabby today....i went out with a girlfriend last night and had myself an iced espresso, then they had free coffee tabute...needless to say I was buzzin all night and couldn't sleep...and that is how I stumbled on her and the other man's website who were SDA....I no it ain't no coincidence. Her paragraph was at least encouraging when she said "I know you went through a lot to leave a denomination and follow Jesus. I
praise God that you have found salvation in Him. But please be careful
when judging others by what has happened in your life. Share your
testimony, yes! Let everyone know you were an Adventist, and that you felt
lost and hopeless. Share how Christ lifted you from despair and gave you
life. But let the focus be on Jesus, and not a faulty church or a human
prophet. I think the rest will be understood. Please keep from
argument and debates. Let us be like Paul and "preach nothing but Christ
and Him crucified."
I think that she's puttin things in Christ...she is simply abit blinded by Ellen and inadvertantly casting down the Word without realizing it I think... |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 3:05 pm: | |
Sherry, This girl seems to be searching and seeking out things that you have great knowledge in. I think it is wonderful how God puts specific people in our paths. I know you have sown a seed, whether or not it will show now or later we'll see!
I will pray for her and for the Lord to guide you in what to say. She seems to really need a friend and those have been my best contacts.
About the post, I didn't mean to discredit the information, I can see how it is very useful for someone studying their way out or someone contemplating becoming an Adventist, also for instruction on the religion. Thanks for sharing it.
Sabra |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Thursday, June 13, 2002 - 11:12 pm: | |
Sherry, that last post was compelling. I'll pray for you and for Rondi. God is sovereign; praise him for this opportunity! (And thanks for sharing it here; just reprinting your emails will give many anonymous readers things to think about!)
Colleen |
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
| | Posted on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 8:41 am: | |
Well here's her e-mails back...not much to say except if God's will, e-mailing will continue at a distance...and like Sabra said the seed has been planted...that's all we can do...
well first I wrote this:
Hey Rondi! I was speaking your name outloud to my mom today (as we both
knew of people in Munising), and it hit me that I knew that name...My mom
too. Are you related somehow to Dr. Olson at Munising? If so, we know
him...though he may not remember us. Many years ago when my dad was working
the Listen program, Dr. Olson gave him his physical. We've had dinner there
at least a couple times I remember. I was a little girl back then too.
Long time ago. Well let me know. Have a great day!!! Sherry
then her response to the different emails...
Yes, Walter Olson is my father-in-law.
I appreciate your heart and the sincerity with which you write, but
everytime I get to this point in a conversation with an ex-Adventist (or
ex-Messianic Jew) I have to ask, What is really wrong? What really
happened to make you so hostile to the Adventist church?
On one hand you say you know that if someone is born again, they are saved,
yet you speak of the Adventist church as if those in it should leave, as if
they could somehow lose their salvation over attending church at a certain
place on a certain day. I am happy and contented in my place. This is
where God has placed me. I know that. I could argue endlessly over
differant religions, scriptures, and intrepretations (yes, I do study
things out myself, and I still love Ellen White!) I would rather have you
drive up to Munising and talk in person than try to do this e-mail. You
missed many of my points and took some of my humor, perhaps poor humor,
deadly seriously.
I am sorry I cannot get into finer points, I do have four small children I
am homeschooling, a farm of 50 chickens, 3 horses, 3 cats, 3 dogs, and a
fish , a rental cabin www.northcountrycabin.com and a retail business
www.munisingwoodenware.com. I hope you realize I am not trying to put you
or your discussion off, I am simply too busy to do anything but get to the
heart of the matter.
So I ask again, what REALLY happened? What left you so hurt?
Rondi
Since you probably can't drive up here, If you want to talk about it,
you can call me at XXX-XXX-XXXX(removed by moderator). I will not argue scripture over the
phone, I firmly believe no one has ever been brought to Christ through
proof texts, and it seems we could go on endlessly, you explaining your
side, me explaining mine, but if you just need to talk to someone, I can be
a good listener.
Call collect if you want.
God bless,
Rondi
my responses....probably frustrated ones.
Hi Rondi,
I really am sorry you are not understanding what I am saying too. Would you
suggest to an ex-Mormon to remain in their church for the sake of the lost
or a ex-Wiccan to do the same? That would be horribly wrong. A church that
teaches salvation on church membership is preaching a "different gospel" as
the Bible tells. That is what the SDA church is....I left because of
theology Rondi. Plain and simple. You can try to put me in a box that says
all who leave, leave because of personal reasons and hurt. And all you do
is believe Satan's lie. I am really sorry. You are welcome to chat with me
whenever you like. I have small children, homeschooling, teaching a Women's
Bible study, helping out with church childcare, learning ASL for my
daughter, 3 dogs, 3 cats....etc. too. I really don't think this should be a
who's who more busy then the other for why you do not want to continue
e-mail conversating ok? I say that light-heartedly. So that is the
answer to what really happen...like it or not...theology...the Word of God
prevailed in my life...Jesus Christ prevailed.
God's blessing to you and I will pray for you that your eyes would be opened
to the deceit.
You're right we could argue...and I'm not trying to. Are you willing to
truly put everything in God's hand and assume you may not know it all, and
ask God to teach you for 30 days without anything else influencing you...not
your church doctrine, not mine or any other...but read the New Testament for
30 days in a row and pray for discernment? If you were, then we'd have
something to talk about.
Have a great day!
Sherry Reinbold
It's all about Jesus Rondi...all about Him and His finished work on the
Cross...do you trust Him fully with nothing added? Not your church
membership, not obeying Him perfectly? Is it all about Jesus, and you
believe your salvation is through Him and Him alone, and not other things
plus Jesus? That is the bottom line, Rondi.. Is He your King, Lord, and
Savior, trusting in the sufficiency of His blood 100%, and confident in your
salvation through Him alone? That is all I ask....That's the only thing
that matters. The Holy Spirit will teach you the rest as we allow Him too. |
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
| | Posted on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 8:49 am: | |
It has been interesting, hasn't it? LOL... I think she has avoided a number of direct questions....but that's pretty typical isn't it? I find she gave a lot of info. on the NT and differences, reasons for doubting, yet when I confronted them, she's got nothing to say about it. I think the prayer would be that she comes to slavery in Ellen White's writings so then she can grasp the freedom and why...I know some people say that Ellen is so wonderful, and yet they have maybe only been exposed to things that are Christlike (even though really written by others) and may have never gone through the Testiomonies, or Spiritual Gifts, and other volumes which really do stand opposed to the Gospel in direct ways. Maybe that is where she is at. Hope she picks up some of her stuff that is not gospel accurate and she will learn from there. But like ya said, Colleen, God is sovereign. I can't think that I would stumble on their site and 3 in the morning...for the top sight listed under Michigan Waterfalls...just too weird. But God' time...God's will....
Oh Colleen or Richard, could you take out her phone number in above post...that really is a private matter, and I forgot to remove it first...Sorry about that!! Thanks.... |
Lydell (Lydell)
| | Posted on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 9:34 am: | |
Sherry, it is interesting also that she mentions "everytime" she gets into "this point in a conversation with ex-SDA's". Sounds to me like you are just one in a string of folks that the Lord is using to chip away at her SDA shield.
You know, the beauty of this whole thing is that now everytime she hears once more the issues raised in her church that you and others have raised in your letters, she is going to be just a tiny bit uncomfortable. That seed of niggling questioning can't be dumped. It may take quite a long time, but we will pray that the annoying little doubts finally get to her and she begins an honest search for truth.
You did good, girlfriend. |
Jerry (Jerry)
| | Posted on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 9:40 am: | |
Second Corinthians 3:15,16
Yes, to this day whenever Moses is read a veil lies over their minds; but when a man turns to the Lord the veil is removed.
Whenever I hear a Seventh-day Adventist or anyone else say, ìIf you read the scripture in the original Greek/Hebrew/Aramaic . . .î I find myself rolling my eyes and sighing. Of course, it is very valuable to do that, but they make it sound as if all current English translations consistently say something completely different that the original meaning of the scriptures as written. Greek is not some alien, incomprehensible, coded language. Greek and English come from the same Indo-European root language. The Greek language indirectly, but significantly influenced the words and grammar of English. Nor were the translators mostly uneducated, drooling, demon-possessed dyslexics.
Go ahead, look at the original language, but that is not the issue with people who say things like those that Rhondi said.
We all know that when you look at Hebrews in the original Greek, it says exactly what forum members asserted here. That is, Paul is purposefully differentiating Jesus and his ministry from the old covenant and the Aaronic priesthood. Why did he decide to make such a strong, detailed statement about this? It is because he understood that the entire life of Judaism revolved around the old covenant (the Ten Commandments augmented by the statutes and ordinances) and the ministry attached to that covenant. He also knew that they could never fully turn to Christ unless they understood his ministry and understood how it relates to and changes the former covenant and ministry. What a timely and timeless message!
The real issue is that Rhondi is parroting the very same brainwashing language that probably brought her to the SDA church in the first place. By this, I mean a constant stream of subtly demeaning language. The point is to tear down by constant suggestions of inadequacy. ìYou have not studied in the original language . . .î ìYour mind has been confused . . .î ìflaws in interpretation . . .î ìIím sure it can be frustrating . . .î All of this to say, in effect, ìYou are ignorant and deceived, but I know the secret code.î
We all know that we do not need to send our cereal box tops to Battle Creek and get our ìEllen G. White secret decoder ringî to understand the Gospel. Jesus and the Apostles left nothing hidden or unsaid. It is all there for us in the Word. Besides, if we do not understand what we read, all we need do is ask Him for help.
No doubt, she does not truly realize how much she depends on the writings of Ellen White to interpret the Bible. I suspect that she would firmly assert that interpretation goes the other way.
How very sad it is to see someone so veiled that she does not know she has turned away from Jesus.
I will pray for her. Not so she sees things my way. Rather, that she sees things His way. |
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
| | Posted on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 10:44 am: | |
You know what is trippin' me right now? She mentioned how she has a rental cabin...and we are looking for a rental cabin right now in that area for our week Vacation in August. Does God want us to go there? She invited us up, and the same time we are already planning to be up there. Gals and guys, I am too freaked to imagine God planning all this out like this...not that He doesn't but by golly, He's got better people then myself to be opening such wide doors for!!! I'm gonna have to pray on this. This is just so wild.
God bless ya all and have a great day in Christ...I'm doing so much better today that I got some sleep! |
Jerry (Jerry)
| | Posted on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 12:13 pm: | |
Please forgive this self-centered post. The original topic of this discussion was very painful for me.
I hope you all will not mind hearing from a ìnever-was-never-will-be-but-married-to-an-Adventistî new forum member.
Mr. Paulsen gave this speech, if I understand correctly, on May 8 of this year. Not one week later I had a meeting with my wifeís pastor about the Glacier View incident due to some correspondence I have had with Desmond Ford and his wife. I was having this conversation at the request of my wife since comments the pastor had made to someone else that I overheard caused me to ask Dr. Ford to verify his perspective.
I doubt that the pastor had read or heard the speech at that time. Nevertheless, when I compared what he said to me with elements of the speech, I was appalled.
Understand that this is a very experienced Adventist pastor with a degree in theology at Andrews, who is currently in contact with many of the current top theology faculty.
Nothing the pastor said was a surprise. Nothing in the speech by Mr. Paulsen is a surprise. However, when I heard what the pastor said and later matched it up with what Mr. Paulsen said, I saw a striking and disturbing picture. I am certain that almost everyone here knows this scenario all too well. Nevertheless, you can imagine how painful it was for me to know that my dearly loved wife was subject to this truly corrupt and diminished Gospel. Saturated with deception and double-speak, this showed how dangerous doctrines could be so two-faced.
Here are some of the highlights (I know you have heard this before):
1 The pastor firmly stated that the Sanctuary and Investigative Judgement doctrines were widely known to be unscriptural by the Adventist Theological and Administrative leaders.
2 The pastor stated that the anti-typical Day of Atonement was indeed the crucifixion day, not October 1844.
3 He reveled in the fact that the church ìhas never had a stated creedî (refer to Paulsenís speech) and has ìalways been willing to change as it receives ënew lightí on any theological subject.
4 He said that the denominationís issue with Ford was procedural, not theological. That is, Ford rejects the historical Sanctuary and Investigative Judgement Doctrines and so, now, does the church.
5 He said that the reason that those doctrines still appear in current publications, is because the church must ìtake care to introduce new things slowly.î
He did not persuade me at the time. I told him in a very general and polite way that I strongly disagreed with much of what he said. We parted amicably.
What a slap in the face Paulsenís speech was after that. |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 1:46 pm: | |
Sherry,
You gotta go!!!! This is a definate God thing!!! Why would He use you? Because look how much you two have in common!
She's not just gonna say, "ya know, I'm wrong and you're right, I'm leaving the church" she has been taught that people like you are there to deceive her!
This is not a dead end, she WANTS to talk to you! Personal testimony is my best defense in debates such as these, after tons of scripture, it just gets people thinking. Tell her what events led you to leave and how confusing it was, she'll probably relate. I'd mention the 'evidence on the testimony of two or three witness' scripture too (where exactly is that?) Seems you are the umpteenth witness to bring this to her attention. Blessings! Exciting isn't it? I have my testimony and e-address everywhere and I love checking my mail!! |
Jerry (Jerry)
| | Posted on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 1:59 pm: | |
I must wholeheartedly agree with Sabra.
Sherry, you really should go. Not that I am an expert, but it seem right that you should not belabor the theological arguments and tend toward personal testimony.
Of course, Rhondi will likely try to frame it in terms of you ìbeing led astray due to your personal conflict and confusion.î Do not let that upset you. Just keep telling the truth about your experience. She might not admit it, but her soul will hear the truth, and eventually it will speak to her even if it is years later. |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 2:22 pm: | |
Allow me to ring in with a different point of view. Please do not take this as being critical of anyone's here.
I think that as former Adventists, we all have a propensity to want to "argue" our point. Rondi makes a good point when she says that no one was ever won by that tactic. Because of our anger at the church, we can come across as being very hostile toward the organization. The bad thing about that is that others pick up on it and it hurts our credibility. So we end of using the same "loveless" tactics that we've all seen (and detested) for years, just from a different viewpoint.
I think that a possible approach in dealing with Rondi is to develop a relationship with her based on your commonalities. Then let the Spirit do the convincing. Opportunities will present themselves. Even if they don't, you will have plenty of opportunity to testify (by deed and word) of the goodness of God--not the ills of her church.
If I have learned nothing else from the Gospel, it is that God wants us to strip away all of the veneer, and be honest about who we are--sinners saved by Grace (all of us). When we realize how much we all share in common (sinfulness, no matter what we believe or know) and the magnitude of the love that God has demonstrated to each of us equally, then our focus shifts from the rightness of our position to true love and compassion.
Please understand, I am not judging anyone's motives. Just asking you to evaluate what it is you are really trying to accomplish. If the shoe fits, consider this as feedback. If it doesn't fit, disregard.
Spoken in true Christian love,
Doug |
Jerry (Jerry)
| | Posted on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 2:33 pm: | |
That was a great point, Doug.
Although I certainly did a very poor job of getting it across, that is exactly what I meant and should have said.
The relationship will provide the opportunity, not the argument. |
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
| | Posted on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 2:46 pm: | |
Yea, listen, if I went, my whole intention of where I felt God's leaning is not broach the subject of the church one iota, and simply 'be there' and that is that. If she wants to talk, she can, but I'd keep it on Jesus and personal testimony...exactly what you are saying. Just live it and that is that. |
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
| | Posted on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 2:48 pm: | |
Oh and by the way, thanks for sharing, Jerry and welcome to the forum. If it gives you help, my hubby was a 4th generation SDA, and he has attended with me for almost a year to the Baptist church we now attend. I left two years ago, and it was a year when he finally came along side. Not a willing participant at first, but he enjoys our church family now. |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Friday, June 14, 2002 - 6:36 pm: | |
Doug's right, criticizing the religion does no good. I try to stick to scripture and my personal experience of how I knew it was the right decision when that comes. {People are usually coming to me though and asking me specific questions-on the internet I mean) you kind of ran into this girl the other way around so let her ask questions if she wants to and it seems she does.
I have a caltholic guy talking to me now and I can see this man has the love of Jesus in his life, we disagree but I feel we will still both be there in the end. Lots of people in false religions have Jesus, I feel. There are just a lot more of them that don't and He wants to deal with them through us. |
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
| | Posted on Saturday, June 15, 2002 - 8:01 pm: | |
The next letter from Rondi.
"I got frustrated, Sherry, because it seemed you weren't even reading what I
wrote. It seemed to me that you were thinking of what to say to me as you
were reading instead of listening to what I was saying. Several times you
wrote me at length regarding something I hadn't even said. Once you
apologized for it, thanks. I would like an honest discussion, but not
until you know me and I know you. And I would love a call. 906-387-5259.
I feel that's really the best way to get aquanited.
Okay, so get mad at me again, (I'm trying to be funny here) but I have born
again Mormon friends and born again Jehovah's Witness' that I feel
perfectly comfortable with being in their own church. Catholics too. They
truly are born again, and live it in their churches. Of course, to be born
again in one of those churchs is not easy. (Not in the Adventist church
either, believe me.) It would probably be easier for them to leave. And
my JW friend shortly will, not of her own will, but but because she is
being disfellowshipped. She just wouldn't shut up about the truth.
I've had a long week, love the Sabbath so much. Everything comes to a
grinding hault and my body, mind and spirit are refreshed. I have the 24/7
spiritual sabbath going on too, but I sure cherish the 24 hour thing!
Sun's going down, I won't be back online till Sabbath's over.
Bye for now,
Rondi" |
Sherry2 (Sherry2)
| | Posted on Friday, June 21, 2002 - 2:15 pm: | |
While at my folks over the weekend, I reread sections of "What's so amazing about grace?" from Philip Yancey. I felt conviction and a sense of my gracelessness in many respects to Rondi. But anyhow, I e-mailed back....one last thing..I don't know if I'll hear from her again...but God's will be done.......
Hi Rondi,
I just got back today... I took an extended visit to my folks home. They just built a home, and are in the middle of moving their stuff out of an apartment to the home. Jon, my husband left Sunday to go back to work Monday, and I stayed with my two kiddlings for a couple more days. Got back today at 11:00 a.m. Nice to be back home. Missed my honey alot.
At the bottom of this letter is a short letter I had sitting in my draft items to you. It is something I just want you to think about.
In response to your letter: I hear you and I understand. I am sorry if I was getting the wrong message. I did not respond as a grace-filled Christian. I did the stupidist thing by responding on my one hour of sleep I had the night before and everything went from there. I have read and reread items. I am not perfect, and now you know it. LoL!!! Again, I'm sorry. I am forwarding a picture of me and my daughter so you can feel as if you know us a little more. I hate phone calling, Rondi. And though the eventuality of it could happen, I'm not inclined to call. I make it a point for ministry to call because I know I need to call "so and so", and I will call my two closest girlfriends because I love to talk to them. But that is it. I let the machine catch most of my stuff for me, and when I did work as Pampered Chef, Tupperware, etc., the reason I quit them all was because of the phone work....puts my stomach in absolute knots. So if you don't mind, I'll try to behave myself and e-mail.
How was your weekend by the way? It rained the whole time at my folks. Monday, loads of sun. We had planned on going to Mackinaw Island for my birthday (just me and my hubby) but it was not a nice day for that, so my mom taught me how to put on ceramic tile on kitchen counters.
I wrote this to a friend recently and it really stands the same I think from what I'm understanding from your letters. If I'm wrong, well I'll be, let me know. "Thanks so much for your letter. I'm glad you stand where you do. Salvation may never be attached to anyone but Jesus. I do think though if people who
believe as you do and actively stand up, not just say "oh well, they're wrong,", change can come to the SDA church... If you ever get the chance,
read "Transformed by Truth", the story of the Worldwide Church of God's journey into grace. It's got a cool map inside that shows the journey from
1844 and where some of the cultic churches came out of it from there. They were one, Jehovah's Witnesses also have ties to the 1844 millerite movement as well. Anyhow, the WWCG came out of SDAism. So the belief system is nearly identical. But what a story! The change came from within, from leadership. It cost them dearly though. But they were walking the walk of grace in Christ. Surveys done in the church have showed that only 50% of the SDA populus can say with confidence they are saved. The other 50% are unsure. Anyhow the book is great. I cried when I read it. I'm not prone to tears but boy have I done some crying when I discovered some of the things I did. And the depth of God's grace. Cried a river back then I guess. The freedom was so awesome(and I'm talking freedom I found through trusting in Christ alone ...not reading the book :P ) though the world came off my shoulders and I was weeping singing in my basement with my hands raised, Blessed Assurance Jesus is Mine!!! He is AWESOME!!!
Just so ya know, if you take a look at my letter about Paulsen or my other one to you personally, I have never once asked you or anyone else to leave the SDA church. I've asked for people to stand up and actively protest the gospel being adulterated. I am very supportive of someone wanting too, though, and being of help to them, so they can see there's life outside. In fact we are starting a Former Adventist Fellowship here in Kalamazoo this June. And there's 3 other groups in North America, as well as the website. But I'm not asking people to leave, unless they are directed to by the Holy Spirit. I would love to see you and others actively (I stress actively) change things from within, and the pressure from us on the outside would help as well.I will admit I am entirely repulsed now with much of SDA doctrine since I've studied out things for myself. But it is good to have some friends who will not pray for my salvation and for me to come back to the church. I've gotten invitation after invitation for Revelation Seminars galore!! It makes me so ill. Here I've got friends from all different denominations who love me and consider me a sister in Christ...none of them care if I go to their church, their denomination, but almost all my SDA friends have left me and only call or send stuff to invite me to some specific SDA agenda thing. Our former pastor even visited us and told Jon that the Bible teaches we may have to leave family to follow Christ (this was when Jon was starting to attend with me...previously we had been a bit split on things- and the Bible teaches that but the insinuation was clear from all he had to say to Jon)....and my folks were told by former friend conference leader that they were a part of Babylon now. But this is because of the teachings....and I understand that now that I've been out for a while. But thank you so much. Would love to have like-minded SDA friends as well who will work from inside to change the denomination."
There are some questions that I asked that did not get direct answers to, I will say that. But I'll wait. I have one family I call my new covenant friends, who do understand the new covenant truly and are SDA. They also hope to make a change from within. I don't know how they are doing. Hopefully well.
I'd like to hear more about your cabin. We were actually looking to come up that way to Tacquananum Falls (I just butchered it...I know...I'm sorry......) area for our family vacation. Anyhow. A little bit about us....I'm 32, have 2 children, 5 and 3. Our daughter, the oldest, is deaf/hard-of-hearing...depending on the frequency. We use sign language in our home and English. Learning a lot over the last spring and now for summer with classes and videos. She's been going to a special needs Total Communication program at the public schools here. I home school her in the afternoon. With speech and stuff, it is something I have to stay on top of to keep her where she needs to go academically and then to provide the Christian element in education she is missing. Her teachers have all been Christians so far and we've been blessed for that. It's so cool...for example at Christmas and Easter, she received Christian children's books and fun nativity stuff or about the Cross. Now that is neat. Jamin my boy has been in daycare part time while I was in college this last year. I'm finishing a degree in Early Childhood Development. Eventually want to teach in a preschool/elementary setting. But firstly God taught me a lot to help make me a better mom this last year. Jamin will be getting his preschool education at home, and we'll see where we go from there. I hope to do daycare at my own home maybe first, then school system later. Of course if I had time and money, I'd go straight to the seminary here in town. I love to study religion, church history, and new testament theology. I'd like to get serious in the study of it. On Wednesdays I'm leading out a Women's Bible Study group. We are using the Beth Moore "Breaking Free" series right now. I volunteered at Mia's school whenever I could. It's a blast working with the students (it was k-4th grade) in the deaf/hh room. We just bought a piano, and I'm planning on teaching Moriah this summer. The kids will be taking swim lessons the month of July. We're gonna do a lot of water and sea life themes that month for teaching. My hubby is a Computer Administrator i.e. computer geek. His office looks like a computer junkyard, but hey, he works on everybody elses when he comes home and brings in extra income so I can stay home with the kids. Can't beat that. Besides he's great at it and loves it. He's hooking me up with my own in my homeschooling office. Try to keep things filed and organized there. Well anyhow, there's a little about us.....Take care! and have a great day.
Christian Love,
Sherry
Here's the short letter I mentioned about that has been sitting in my drafts...i've reread it 4-5 times. I still feel the same about this so I know I gotta share it. Thanks for considering....
Hey Rondi,
There is one thing that really troubles me, so I want to share it with you simply for you to think about. In the one letter you had compared EGW to the Scriptures and that you could use the same standards for critizing the Word, and then you went on to talk about inaccuracies, other gospels not in the Word, like Thomas and Mary, etc. What is so troubling about this is this: Let's say Rondi, that I did not have the knowledge I do about the New Testament, it's historical accuracy and the other gospels. What you were doing was putting direct mistrust on the Bible. Do you see that? If I was a novice, and I went "Wow, there's other gospels?" and went the religion section, etc., etc., maybe I'd turn my back on God if I didn't know how to discern and had no prior knowledge to this stuff. Do you understand what I am saying? Please think about it. It was throwing direct mistrust on the Word of God. I thank God He is in my heart and I do know things like that. The very statements you made are the same my Wiccan friends and father-in-law (Wiccans practice witchcraft and sorcery) have used on me many times so that I will no longer believe the Bible or God, and especially Jesus! That's the truth Rondi. That's exactly what they've told me. Please think about that and what you said yourself. Just think about it. Read your letter again acouple times too so you know what I'm saying about that. Thanks!
Sincerely,
Sherry
Had a friend e-mail me about the statement too. She is SDA also. It's been an intense month of conversations with SDA's lately. |
Jerry (Jerry)
| | Posted on Friday, June 21, 2002 - 7:46 pm: | |
Great letter Sherry.
I must say I agree very much with your point about "putting direct mistrust on the Bible." When I heard about the "other Gospels," I understood how dangerous they would likely be. When I read them, I understood why they were not in the Bible, but I am not so sure everyone would realize it.
It is really sad how we have so often heard the defense "Oh listen, everything or everyone else is just as bad" to justify serious errors. Not just in this area does one hear it.
You know, I feel a great sense of hope about your situation with Rhondi. I know many are praying about it. I think we should all be ready to be surprised.
Won't that be great?!! |
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