| Author |
Message |
Freeatlast (Freeatlast)
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 10:56 am: |     |
I haven't found such an article, but I'd be supremely interested in reading it! I'll call my contact at CRI and ask for some help. Thanks! |
Bob_2 (Bob_2)
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 10:59 am: | |
Freeatlast, PCA is not the point or John Calvin, but the attitude that unless you don't throw all of what had an influence on you earlier in Adventism that you are of the Devil I find offensive and limiting to a truly fair dialogue about where people are coming from. I have sort of stumbled on to what is called Reformed Theology and am amazed at how most of main stream protestantism has it. It is Calvinism pure and simple. Can we learn from Calvin, sure as much as I can receive a devotional blessing from reading Desire of Ages.
Bob_2 |
Pheeki (Pheeki)
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 11:33 am: | |
I personally have not used the word Satanic in connection with the SDA. I think there are very good people in that organization. However, I do think some of the doctrine you are professing to agree with when you sign the 27 Fundamental beliefs prior to baptism is in error. (Unbiblical).
That was one of my first problems with SDAism, that you cannot just be baptized because you believe in Jesus and confess him as your savior, no, you must study, study, study texts that support what they believe and then you must swear that you fully agree with the whole package. I find it hard to believe that millions of people (after diligent study) all believe exactly the same.
I have not been comfortable calling SDAism a cult because I have loved ones who are very much a part of this denomination. However, it does have some characteristics of a cult. (As do a few other denominations.) But what I can understand is the anger and frustration that would lead someone to call it a cult.
I still attend the SDA church every Sabbath though I am not a believer in what they teach. But because my family is very enmeshed into the culture of SDAism and very involved in the worship service, I go. But I must tell you that I am on guard for error, and the Holy Spirit sure points it out once the blinders are off. What had really amazed me is the fact I have told people at the church I no longer considered myself SDA and have not been kicked out. Not only that but I have spoken with several people there who feel nearly the same as I do.
I don't know how old you are Bob2, but the SDA's who are in their 30's think a lot differently than our parents did. I think SDAism is on a different course than it was when we were growing up. I see EGW very downplayed, almost non-existant in some churches. However, you will always have the "purists" who insist that SDAism is being polluted by grace. I think I have heard it called "cheap grace". And they hold their own services separate from the "liberals".
Which leads me to the "Jesuit theory", which states that the SDA church has been infiltrated by the archnemesistic Catholic church promoting "celebration" in their services. Egads!(words up on a screen directing the eyes up instead of eyes downward on the hymnal, etc.)
Ok, I know I shouldn't make fun and I am not bitter. I too feel like I wouldn't be a Christian today if it weren't for the SDA church, so we do owe them this...they pointed us to the Law so that we may find Christ. You know this is the real purpose of the Law-not to keep us saved once we are saved...but to point us to "the Saver". |
Bob_2 (Bob_2)
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 12:05 pm: | |
Pheeki, WOW!!! in a different way. You are probably more Adventist than me. Thank you for that last posting. I am 51 years old. When I left Adventism, I did not join another church right away but did the recreational weekend or (Weekend Warrior) bit out in God's nature (or Sanctuary)until I realized that I wanted my kids to have a church option unlike my cousin who later told my Aunt why didn't you take me to church. We went to the Inquirer's class at this PCA our neighbor introduced us to and because they allowed us to come in on profession of faith not on tenets of the PCA I had the most wonderful experience before the Elders as I heard my wife tell the Elders what Jesus meant to her. I also had to go through a similar assessment of what Jesus meant to me. The only one thing that I might object to that I had to say that I agreed to and that was that I acknowledge that I was a sinner, (which I agree with) but that "and I am desiring of eternal hell." I have talked to an Elder in the church who has said, "The Pastor feels that is important." Meaning he didn't feel it was the best approach when evangelizing. Do you have your relationship with Jesus because of your fear of "eternal torment"?
Bob_2 |
Bob_2 (Bob_2)
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 12:28 pm: | |
Sorry, the phrase I disagree with is "and that I am deserving of eternal hell." Sorry I didn't get this edited.
Bob_2 |
Pheeki (Pheeki)
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 12:33 pm: | |
I see your point. I wouldn't agree to that either. Just what I said in my last post. In the Bible all you had to do is claim Christ as your Saviour and be baptized. You don't have to "repeat after me" or sign anything. |
Pheeki (Pheeki)
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 1:06 pm: | |
ok,...I have no idea what your WOW's!!!! mean. A Wow can be taken many ways...I have chosen to think you mean them in the best possible way. Am I wrong?
How does one determine ones level of Adventism? Would it be measured per ounce of vegemeat consumed? teehee. ;>)
Bob2- Lighten up a little. God loves you and all of us here. We are going to laugh about all the debating (on this site) we have done when we get to heaven!
By the way, I sure hope God lets us cook Italian food in heaven. I know I would not burn it up there!! Not to mention, I would like to have my own vineyard and make the best wine!!! I bet the banquet he is planning is phenominal! For sure we know there will be bread and wine but I wonder what else???? |
Bob_2 (Bob_2)
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 2:55 pm: | |
Pheeki, the fact that you sit in an Adventist church each weekend would link you a little closer than me. To tell you the truth the break from Adventism for me and my wife was hard. I, the braver one, started looking for a church home. I attended Lutheran, or Catholic Lite, as some like to call it, Methodist, where we Adventists come from way back, Evangelical Free, very close to PCA, very Calvinist, and the PCA where we ended up. The reason we chose PCA had to do with:
- It was very clear how it preached the gospel. Very Evangelical actually.
- It allowed us to come in on the issues of salvation not having to believe all their denominational tenets.
- We had friends their, including a former SDA minister that was studying to be a Presbyterian USA minister. He was the one that when I was struggling with the day of the week issue that handed me Dale Ratzlaff's book when it was yellow before the revised red edition. I drank that book up like a sponge.
- They respected the worship hour. The best part of the service, the music, starts right at the specified time. I mean to the minute. They aren't still talking about "Investment projects" or "JMV" or "Pathfinders" they are truly engaged in worshiping God our maker.I some time would get goose bump at how beautiful this part of the service was.
However, there was a darkside. That was Calvinism. I found that I had to stay away from some of the classes taught by dogmatic style teachers that wanted to endoctrinate rather than have a give and take about issues. This for me was worse than Adventism because I used to teach a Sabbath School class and loved the give and take. We discussed all kinds of issues like should we take our baths before sundown Friday night (like I did as a kid), evolution and adaption (one of my favorites as a Christian Biologist), the symbolizm of the wedding ring, (I actually had a lady tell me that the finger through the ring was a symbol of the sex act and that is why we shouldn't wear them.I felt like telling her in most marriages that act occasionally happens and is not vulgar.)However, I have to say that I could leave issues unresolved for further study without someone saying I was too controversial. However, I can not teach in the PCA without believing all their tenets, certainly more strict than the Adventists.
Bob_2 |
Freeatlast (Freeatlast)
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 3:03 pm: | |
Bob, it's all part of my walk, Christ has been there through it all and will continue to be. My approach is to "test all things, hold to that which is good." I make every effort to toss out all dirty bathwater I find, but I make equal effort not to throw out any babies that the Holy Spirit convicts me are in it. btw, thanks for the Westminster Confession link suggestion. I skimmed it all and found myself in agreement with about 85% of it. I'm going to make a point of reading more carefully some other time, it is a wonderfully written document. |
Bob_2 (Bob_2)
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 5:39 pm: | |
To All, I for one would like to congradulate Dennis for introducing what has turned out to be the longest string in such a short time at least since I have started contributing. You sure know how to pick um.
Bob_2 |
Doug222 (Doug222)
| | Posted on Friday, February 28, 2003 - 6:08 pm: | |
Bob,
I hope you don't take this the wrong way, but I'd like to know a little more about you. You are somewhat of a "strange breed" as posters go on this forum. Most of us are either Adventists who left the church for doctrinal reasons (which I believe you said that you did not)or we are people who have family members who are Adventists and came here looking for information. In any case, we are all pretty much united (although we don't necessarily agree on every point) in our belief that the SDA Church has many teachings that are antithetical to the the Gospel. You don't seem to fit into either of these category. Call it me being analytical (or maybe just nosey), but I am curious:
- How long ago did you leave the SDA Church?
- Why specifically (or as specific as you care to share)did you leave?
- What brings you to this forum at this point in your journey?
- Other than the PCA, did you explore other churches when you began looking for a new church home?
I guess the thing that puzzles me most is that you seem to believe that most of us have become "extremists" because of our experience in Adventism, yet you do not necessarily advocate Adventism yourself. You speak with some degree of pride (not meant in a negative sense) about the PCA, but have problems with some of their foundational teaching. When some here have quoted scripture, you express a need not to abandon human logic--yet I have seen you quote "some" scripture yourself, in support of your views. Forgive me for saying so, but you almost appear to be a man withut a country.
None of this is said to be judgemental or to place you in a box. I just would like to come to know (understand) you and where you are coming from better. Thanks.
Doug |
Loneviking (Loneviking)
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 9:19 am: | |
Bob, by the way, the Evangelical Free are NOT Calvinist in their belief. They are not close to the PCA either. Most will not allow women ministers or elders---but the PCA does. They won't allow practicing homosexuals to hold church membership or be ministers, but I understand that the PCA does----or is it just the liberal faction?
Anyway, the EV Free just isn't much like the PCA, or I wouldn't be there!
Bill |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Saturday, March 01, 2003 - 10:55 pm: | |
Pheeki, I saw in your post something about 27 fundamentals that you had to accept prior to baptism with the SDAs. I hadn't heard that before but did get to see six people baptized in an SDA church one Sabbath while visiting with my sister.
I mentioned this absurd baptism to my sister and related to her some of the things that were stated during the baptism. She flatly denied that the SDA church did any such thing, and she sat right there with me and observed the entire thing! I told her that she was indeed a liar and that I didn't make a bit of it up and went on to tell her that my children were there and saw and heard it all as well. She then changed her tune and came up with the statement that all baptisms were different and people often made their own "personal" proclamations when going through a baptism, and she herself shouldn't be expected to remember every little detail of every baptism that she had attended, she said "my mind just isn't as sharp as it used to be, I do forget things you know."
The baptism that I saw and heard contained several statements made by the pastor, much like repeating vows in a wedding ceremony, and the people repeated the vows or said I do or I will in answer to the statements. One distinct thing that I will never forget was their statement of the fact that they willingly gave up any of their prior beliefs from old Christian beliefs and pronounced the entire Christian body, aside from the SDAs, as being false and of the antichrist and went on to state that they would be forever grateful for the SABBATH day truth that EGW has so lovingly bestowed on them. I tell you what, I never wanted to go to another SDA church after that but did go a few more times later on at another church in another state when my sister moved. It was more or less just the same though, let us praise Ms. E.G. White for reminding us of our devotion to the SABBATH.
Jesus said "come unto me" not come to a day of rest, he said "I will give you rest"
Forgive me for rambling again, that's it for tonight.
Janice |
Angie (Angie)
| | Posted on Sunday, March 02, 2003 - 6:33 am: | |
Amen Doug,I have been reading these posts lately,and I have been wondering the same thing about ole Bob.Not meaning it in negative way,just something doesn't connect,you can't figure out what he really believes!!! Angie |
Dennis (Dennis)
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 6:17 am: | |
Gene,
Based on your post on another thread topic (e.g., Mormon temple ceremony excerpts), we can add a THIRD "messenger" group among the four major cults from the nineteenth century. The term "messenger" is certainly not exclusive to Adventism, as much as Ellen White hoped and speculated that it would be.
Dennis J. Fischer |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 04, 2003 - 7:40 am: | |
Good point, Dennis. One wonders just how much contact the founding fathers and mothers of these 19th century cults had with one another?!
Colleen |
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