| Author |
Message |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 8:46 am: |     |
Steve,
The difference in our discussion and the SDA's is that they think they are right and that's it period, and we have are humble enough to know that God is mighty and powerful and we understand what He wants us to understand and no more. If we are wrong, it will be shown to us and it wont be a big deal because we know He has it all figured out and we trust Him.
Brad, I didn't get that last question, can you rephrase or something? I understand you are coming from the partial rapture theory and I'm not sure of that, I am studying it out though, the verse that says--Pray that you may be made worthy to escape the trials to come or something like that, makes me think, maybe....
I don't think a generation has to be 40 years, He said this generation will not pass away, that would mean those born in 1948 wouldn't all be dead when He came, right? That could be 120 years or who knows, technology may make us live longer in the near future.
Didn't Jesus say we wouldn't know the hour or the day? Where did He warn about the 'season'? I did a study on the Abib and it is the time of harvest of wheat and they never knew when it would come because it depended on the full moon and therefore the hour or day couldn't be known. I know that is very vague, but if anyone is interested I can share the study with you.
We are simply to be ready at anytime for the imminent return of the Lord but I know in the ancient Hebrew weddings when the bride was waiting for the groom to come at any unsuspecting moment, she wasn't just sitting there talking about how great he was with her friends and family....I bet she was saying, "When do you think he'll come?" |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 3:45 pm: | |
Brad, I believe that those who are born-again, who are completely new creations in Christ, are greater than John the Baptist, and I also believe that's what Jesus meant. He knew the reality for his people after the cross would be the condition of being born again.
I don't believe, however, that being born again and filled with the Holy Spirit is the end of Jesus' prophecies about his coming. Bible prophecies always have layers of meaning, like concentric circles working out from the core of spiritual truth contained in the prophecy. At the core of Jesus prophecy about his coming in Matthew 24 is the bare fact that he will come in power to the earth. Outside that basic fact is the immediate fulfillment his audience would have understood.
The disciples had asked him to help them understand when he would return. The verses around the quote you posted above include many signs they were to observe. They understood him to be referring to his literal return. As time passed, however, they would also have understood that at least partially, his prophecy was also about the terrible persecution Israel would face in 70 AD when Jerusalem was destroyed.
Still, not all the things Jesus prophecied came true in 70 AD. Likewise, they did not come true at Pentecost, either. The trumpet call and the physical retrun of Jesus in the sky (also prophecied in Acts 1 when Jesus ascended) did not happen. Those things are also described in 1 thessalonians 4 and also in Revelation.
There is a future meaning to Jesus' prophecy as well as the more immediate, partial fulfillments that the disciples might have recognized. All biblical prophecy has these layers of immediate and future fulfillment implied in them.
There are too many prophecies of Jesus' literal return throughout the New Testament to try to read the Mattehw 24 prophecy as being fulfilled spiritually at Pentecost and physically by the church bearing Christ in the world.
I believe that the church, Christ's body, is perhaps part of the mystery of Jesus' prophecy that no one, including the disciples, could understand before Pentecost. But it is not THE fulfillment of Jesus' promises to return physically. We are waiting, as Paul says in Romans 8:23, for the redemption of our bodies even though we have the firstfruits of the Spirit. Our bodily redemption, the receiving of our resurrection bodies, does not equal Christ's return to earth through us.
We will not only be spiritually but physically with the Lord forever after he returns. At death we are spiritually with him, but not physically. At his coming, when the dead are raised, our bodies are redeemed and we are with him physically.
Matthew 24 has not been entirely fulfilled yet. The same Jesus that ascended into heaven will return as he went: from the heavens, visibly (Acts 1:18), He will come with his angels (Matthew 16:7) and the voice of the archangel (1 Thessalonians 4:16) and the trumpet call of God (1 Thessalonians 4:16 and Mathew 24:31).
A spiritual fulfillment of the prophecies of Jesus' return is not at all what the New Testament teaches. Yes, the church is an amazing "surprise" that literally puts the presence of Christ on earth through those who are born again, but Jesus himself is not here in person as he will be after he comes again. The kingdom prophecies from both the old and the new testaments are still to be physically fulfilled. The kingdom of God is the "now and future kingdom". It is here now within us, and it will literally be here with Christ ruling the earth in the future.
Praise God for his faithfulness!
Colleen |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 4:01 pm: | |
Interesting info on how Hebrew scholars interpret the scriptures from www.nazarene.net:
These are the four levels of understanding the scriptures. Each layer is deeper and more intense than the last, like the layers of an onion.
PASHAT
The first level of understanding is PASHAT (simple). The Pashat is the literal meaning. It is similar to what Protestant hermeneutics calls "Grammatical Historical Exogesis" and also similar to what Protestant Hermeneutics calls "The Literal Principle."
The PASHAT is the plain, simple meaning of the text; understanding scripture in its natural, normal sense using the customary meanings of the words being used, in accordance with the primary exegetical rule in the Talmud that no passage loses its PASHAT (b.Shab. 63a; b.Yeb. 24a). While there is figurative language (like Ps. 36:7) symbolism (like Rom. 5:14); allegory (like Gal. 4:19-31) and hidden meanings (like Rev. 13:18; see also 1Cor. 2:7) in the Scriptures, the first thing to look for is the literal meaning or PASHAT.
The following rules of thumb can be used to determine if a passage is figurative and therefore figurative even in its PASHAT:
When an inanimate object is used to describe a living being, the statement is figurative.
(Example: Prov. 18:10)
When life and action are attributed to an inanimate object the statement is figurative.
(Example: same example Prov. 18:10)
When an expression is out of character with the thing described, the statement is figurative.
(Example: Ps. 17:8)
The PASHAT is the keystone of Scripture understanding. If we discard the PASHAT we lose any real chance of an accurate understanding. We are left with a no-holds-barred game of pure imagination in which we are no longer objectively deriving meaning from the Scriptures (exogesis), but subjectively reading meaning into the scriptures (eisogesis) (see 2Pt. 1:20-21; 1Tim. 4:3-4). Thus the Talmud twice warns us: "No passage loses its PASHAT" (b.Shab. 63a; b.Yeb. 24a).
REMEZ
The next level of understanding is called in Hebrew REMEZ (hint). This is the implied meaning of the text. Peculiarities in the text are regarded as hinting at a deeper truth than that conveyed by its PASHAT.
An example of implied "REMEZ" meaning may be found in Ex. 21:26-26-27 where we are told of our liability regarding eyes and teeth. By the "REMEZ" understanding we know that this liability also applies to other body parts.
DRASH
Another level of understanding the Scriptures is called in Hebrew "drash" meaning "search", this is the allegorical, typological or homiletical application of the text. Creativity is used to search the text in relation to the rest of the Scriptures, other literature, or life itself in order to develop an allegorical, typological or homiletical application of the text. This process involves eisogesis (reading of the text) of the text.
Three important rules of thumb in utilizing the drash level of understanding a scripture are:
[1] A drash understanding can not be used to strip a passage of its PASHAT meaning, nor may any such understanding contradict any PASHAT meaning of any other scripture passage. As the Talmud states "No passage loses its PASHAT." (b. Shab. 63a; b.Yeb. 24a)
[2] Let scripture interpret scripture. Look for the scriptures themselves to define the components of an allegory. For example use Mt. 12:18-23 to understand Mt. 13:3-9; Rev. 1:20 to understand Rev. 1:12-16; Rev. 17:7-18
to understand Rev. 17:2-8 ect..
[3] The primary components of an allegory represent specific realities. We should limit ourselves to these primary components when understanding the text.
EXAMPLES OF DRASH UNDERSTANDINGS:
Mt. 2:15 on Hosea 11:1
Mt. 3:11 on Is. 40:3
Rom. 5:14 (14-21) on Gen. 3:1-24
I Cor. 4:6
Gal. 4:24(21-31) on Gen. 17-22
Col 2:17
Heb. 8:5 on priesthood
Heb. 9:9, 24 on the Tabernacle
Heb. 10:1 on the Torah
Heb. 11:19 on Gen. 22:1f
1Pt. 3:21 on Gen. 6-9
SOD
The final level of understanding the Scriptures is called in Hebrew "SOD" meaning "hidden". This understanding is the hidden, secret or mystic meaning of a text. (See I Cor. 2:7-16 esp. 2:7). This process often involves returning the letters of a word to their prime-material state and giving them new form in order to reveal a hidden meaning. An example may be found in Rev. 13:18 where the identity of the Beast is expressed by its numeric value 666. |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Friday, April 11, 2003 - 4:51 pm: | |
I have recently been talking to someone about the dual applications of scriptures. I made mention of the literal King of Tyre that was destroyed along with his sea ports where he conducted world trade, however, if we continue reading in the following chapters, we will find that this king is referred to as none other than Satan himself (Ezekiel 28)and with this information in mind, we can conclude that the scripture also has a future meaning as well. Also, the Jewish temple was destroyed around 70AD and this is what led EGW into teaching that all other preachers that taught about future events found in the book of Revelation were actually teaching in error when they taught of a future temple being destroyed. She forgot to take into consideration that they're many dual applications in the Bible. How about the seven literal churches that John actually had a messenger take his seven letters too? He spoke to those churches of his day but they also represent different phases of history.
I have really enjoyed reading many of the spiritual insights that Brad has shown in his writings and see a lot of truth in his words as well, but we shouldn't forget either that IF God says that the lion will eat hay and lay down with the lamb and also the child will play over a snake pit, then I have to take God's word literally as well as spiritually. The word teaches that this thousand year period will be a time that we saints will be a governing body over a restored Israel. Satan will be literally bound in chains in the great abyss and time as we now know it will change because God makes mention of the child remaining a child and the old man will be no older after that thousand year period. There will also be people born during this thousand year period and those will be the ones that Satan will rise up against when he is let loose "for a season" and this is when God will destroy them with the sword in the final battle and we will walk on their ashes. The SDAs have really used those "ashes" to hammer home the point that ALL the wicked dead will be annihiliated instead of burning in an eternal hell, but they are not the only cult that teaches that false doctrine either. I have a pamphlet on several of the leading cults and what their beliefs are concerning God, Jesus, hell, salvation, etc. and will be posting it in one of the threads that I started when I have more time.
I have been reading from the book of Zechariah this week and found many of those dual applications there too and will try to get to them as well as time permits.
I guess I need to end this post too since I am still trying to get my web site up and going. Continue to pray for me in that area too, amen.
Love from Janice |
Steve (Steve)
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 12:33 am: | |
Hi All,
Brad, Jesus said that John was this Elijah who was to come, AND that he would come again.
To say that, "John the Baptist which was a shadow or type of the Spirit of Jesus returning through Christians that have overcome the things mentioned to the seven churches" seems to place conditions on God. We must be careful to never say, after the cross, that God will do this or that based on whether we "overcome" anything. As Jesus said, the Spirit, like the wind, goes where it wills. We have absolutely no say in it.
Now that God has spoken "in finality, in His Son" (Hebrews) we must realize that our works are no longer part of the equation of what God will do and when He will do it. The New Covenant is between the Father and Son, not between God and man.
Sabra, that's right on where you say, "the SDA's is that they think they are right and that's it period, and we have are humble enough to know that God is mighty and powerful...".
God is almighty (ALL MIGHTY) and ALL-powerful. However, so say that a generation may not be 40 years, but 120 years, or that technology may increase the lenght of a generation, is to fall into the same trap that other cults are guilty of (specifically Jehovah's Witnesses). The JWs who were born before October 14th, 1914 are quickly dying off. They went through the same thought process.
The point is, we have been in the last generation since the time of the apostles. We have been in the last days since the time of the apostles. We mustn't think of these "periods" as periods of time as we measure time. If human history goes on for another thousand years, humans will still be living in the end-times, and in the final generation.
Sabra, the method of scriptural exegesis that you present, although too hebraic for me, is an excellent example of how one must look at scripture. We should look at it in its historical context, literary structure, purpose of the author (God and the person He chose to write), theological message, and finally ask the Holy Spirit to help us apply the truths of the scripture to our lives (perhaps the "mystical" that you refer to above.)
Janice, you wrote, "they are not the only cult that teaches that false doctrine either. I have a pamphlet on several of the leading cults and what their beliefs are concerning God, Jesus, hell, salvation, etc. and will be posting it in one of the threads that I started when I have more time."
I look forward to the post. However, one item that your pamphlet may not include, it is rarely included in overviews of cults, is the problem of the historicist interpretation of the seven churches of Revelation.
You say that "those churches they also represent different phases of history." If you have read "The Great Controversy" by EGWhite, you are familiar with the fact that that was one method of interpreation that became common in her day. That method of interpretation is held by all four of the major cults originating in the U.S. as well as numerous minor groups. When I left the SDA church, that was one method of interpretation that I gave up. It has turned out to be a great blessing to me. I've been averse to reading the books of Daniel and Revelation over the last 3 years or so. However, recently, I've become much more interested in reading Revelation, and have been returning to my absolute favorite Old Testament prophet, Ezekiel, from time to time.
I guess that while holding onto the baby (that so many said I'd be throwing out) I dumped out quite a lot of bathwater. But that's OK. After all, Ezekiel said that in the end a river will flow from under the Eastern threshold of the temple. I'll let that river (the Holy Spirit) fill up my bath again.
Steve |
Brad_2 (Brad_2)
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 8:32 am: | |
Steve, I totally agree with you ,but I think that you must have misunderstood what I was trying to say. To clearify: What we do or say has no bearing at all after all we all have fallen short of God's glory. But it is what Jesus Christ is saying and working through us that counts. Amen The new man is Christ which means anionted, but not Jesus which means savior. |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 2:40 pm: | |
Praise God when I come to the FAF on Sunday afternoon because I can tell that you all have gone to the house of the Lord and fed on Holy manna. When I have such a good day in the Lord's house, it is like the let down after Christmas when I start to take down the Christmas decorations. We all too soon have to get back out into the real world.
It is really great to sit with fellow believers and feel the love that flows when the Spirit comes down "amongst" us. I still get goose bumps everytime I hear that song that talks about how "we are standing in God's presence" and how we can feel the holy angels all around. I guess it is just a small preview of what heaven will be like.
Steve, I will begin on that topic of errors in doctrines in a new thread in the next few days, maybe even today if I stop and rest my eyes for a little while. I have been busy reading some of my e-mail and am really getting encouragement about my new web site. Let me know if any of you have something in particular that you think I need to discuss, and maybe you can give me some instructions in navigation as well.
Janice |
Steve (Steve)
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 2:45 pm: | |
Yes, Brad. Perhaps I misread the words you used. As Colleen said, the only condition is being born again. We are truly greater than John the Baptist. After all, he was an Old Testament prophet, pointing forward to the messiah. His actual ministry ended the moment Jesus came up out of the waters of baptism.
Jesus is the Christ (as Peter procalaimed), the "Anointed" son of the Living God. We are Christ-ians (initially a derogatory term, used by anti-christians of the apostles day, which meant "little Christs".) Jesus was THE Anointed Son of God. We, if we are born again, have the right to become sons of God (John 1:12), i.e., anointed, set apart, (in the world, but not of the world.)
Like other statements, even in the New Testament, we must be careful to attach any importance (in relation to ourselves) regarding Jesus' statement about Elijah returning again. Whenever, and however, he does, will be sufficient for me. I am no longer trying to be the Elijah to the last generation, or to be a member of an organization that wants to fulfill it's interpretation of Elijah's message.
I'm not even trying to be saved.
I AM SAVED. End of Book 1.
Now onto the second part of the trilogy, where God works His will in my life while I live in this body.
Book 3 will be about His actual return (just as He left, as the angels said) and my final destination in the world of the Solid People (ref: The Great Divorce, C. S. Lewis).
Happy Sunday,
Steve |
Steve (Steve)
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 3:02 pm: | |
Janice,
Looks like we posted about the same time. I have done large amounts of research on over 25 cults in general, and have done extensive research on over 10 of those groups. My research dates back to 1975 and continues to this day. I will attempt to read your posts but realize that one researcher may be critical (neither negatively or positively, just critically) of another researchers work.
For instance, I have been an admirer of the work of the late Walter R. Martin. He was truly an incredible, and loving Christian man. However, even his work, which is considered to be some of the best available on the cults and occult, has been in error (I am specifically referring to his work on Seventh-day Adventism). He began to rectify those errors, intiating some new research just before he died in 1989. His staff that was working on the SDA project, left, or was let go, by the man that took over his organization and changed it from the great organization it was into an organization that maligns fellow Christians, rather than the true anti-christs that John warned us about in the First John.
All that said, I'm looking forward to your posts.
Gotta go,
Steve |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 5:04 pm: | |
Thanks Steve, Yes, I too have been studying my Bible since back in the mid seventies. My sister got into the SDAs about the same time that I started studying about "last day" issues. My SDA sister made fun of me when I wore a little trumpet pin that said "Perhaps Today" on it, and I never understood it seeing as how her church was much more into the Second Advent subject than I was, only from the angle that they were going to be the "remnant church" that would be hunted down in the last days, and that was why she and her new Adventist husband "fled" to the mountains of North Carolina and built a home out in the middle of nowhere.
I still haven't heard any of you say if you remembered those long posts from a couple of months ago where a certain man was speaking on the research that he had done into the false teachings of EGW, going to the SDA churches and talking about the wrong dates in historical accounts, etc. but then got mad at one of us here when we posted some of his research. Any clues from you men, it was a man that did the posting?
My sister challenged me over a year ago to read some of EGW's books and find any errors that EGW had printed/prophecied about and she would be happy to discuss them with me but when I found a web site that had actually taken some of her writings and highlighted them in yellow and posted the word of God along with it to show the false statements, instead of sitting down and acting rationally about the issue at hand, she went into a rampage and sent me tons of email for over a month. She also filled my mailbox up with SDA books that were full of junk that I took the liberty to correct with a red ink pen and she was furious when I returned them saying that she had to throw them away after I had taken it upon myself to "deface" them, praise God, it would have done her good to have opened them up and check the verses out for herself. She even gave me warnings to quit criticizing EGW and telling me to quit "confusing" my mother with all my literature seeing as how she was still NEW in the faith (My mother was baptized in a Baptist church over 40 years ago, by the way)and has only been an SDA for less than ten years. All I was doing was EXACTLY what my sister had, more or less, DARED me to do and that was to find fault with anything that the "blessed" woman had ever said. When the long debate was finally ended, I was told that I needed some professional counseling to help me find out why I felt the need to always be right. It didn't seem to even phase her that I was praying for her enlightenment to the truth.
I told her that all I could do was give her the truth and she could do what she wanted to with it, and we haven't spoken to one another since. I was told that she never wanted to speak to me again and that "I" was beyond reasoning with, go figure? Wonder why I sing "I shall, I shall, I shall not be moved, sis?
I have God's promise that I will be rewarded for trying to give the truth, but some people tend to think that none of us in this forum that say we are saved actually know what we are talking about. Some of us here in the forum even have family members that actually believe that we joined "another" church and left the "true" church just so we could live to persecute them during the last days. How do you deal with such issues as this?
We come here and listen and share with one another and study and relate to one another what we have learned and we all are praying for one another, so, what else is there to do here but to just keep learning and praying and hope that someday the truth will hit home with those who just can't pull those blindfolds off by their own power.
We need the divine intervention of the Holy Spirit and if you go to my thread on the unities and look at some of the other cults views concerning God, it just might help you feel a little bit better about the SDAs, wow, some of this nonsense made me shudder just to key it in a post, but we have God's word that this is exactly what is going to happen in the last days. People just can't take it when you tell it like it is, and God help us all for trying to shine our light while others want to hide it under a basket, amen.
Janice |
Sabra (Sabra)
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 5:52 pm: | |
My Pastor said one profound thing tonight in particular. He was talking about Moses and how he told Pharoah to let his people go and of course Pharoah said no which caused Moses a lot of problems with the Israelites, as well as problems for them, so God did the job, as He said He would in the first place, and let His people go.
8 things God will do for a covenant people, from Exodus 6
1. Bring them (us)out from under burdens
2. Rescue them (us)from their bondage
3. Redeem them (us)with outstretched are and great judgments.
4. Take them (us) as His people
5. Be their (our)God
6. They they (we)shall KNOW
7. He will bring them (us) IN
8. Give to them (us) an inheritance
So, He brings us out from where we are, resues us from our bondage, redeems us which means to pay a price to get someone out, takes us as His bride, marries us so that we can 'know' Him by Name, brings us in to His house, gives us our inheritance.
The profound thing he said is that every thing God promised the nation of Israel in the natural is a type of what we a are promised in the Spiritual.
That applies right down to the Sabbath! |
Steve (Steve)
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 5:53 pm: | |
Janice,
I don't have the time to read all the old posts, so forgive me if this has been hashed out before. You say that one may feel beter about the SDA teaching concerning God.
Having been one, and understanding that there is only one true gospel and only one false gospel (Paul said in 2 Cor. ther is "A" different Jesus, "A" different spirit, and "A" different gospel.) All of the false gospels are actually the same false gospel.
Once I understood this, and began to look at the SDA teachings of the Atonement, the Sanctuary and the Scapegoat, it made me realize that the SDA "god" is truly as whacky as any other god in any other cult, no matter how bizarre. In SDAism, God covered up truth so that the early Adventists would make errors in their teaching. In SDAism the Bible is fallible, which is an attempt to raise the writings of EGW to a Biblical level. In SDAism, the blood of Jesus, was "not to cancel sin" (EGW). In SDAism, Satan bears the sins of the people into the wilderness, not Jesus. In SDAism, God will not hear your prayers if you have eggs/meat/unclean foods on your table (EGW). In SDAism, Jesus told lies to communicate truths.
The "god" of Seventh-day Adventism is no better or worse than the "god" of Mormonism, Christian Science, the Family of Love, or any other cult. He is the same god, who teaches the same gospel in each of the groups, and he sends the same spirit into SDAism that he sends into his other false groups.
My goodness! Wasn't that a "pleasant" rant.
Steve |
Colleentinker (Colleentinker)
| | Posted on Sunday, April 13, 2003 - 7:28 pm: | |
Wow, Steve--that was certainly clear! Thank you!
Colleen |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 8:57 am: | |
Steve, That was a good post. I understand exactly what you are saying too but only put that statement in to try and make us all feel a tad bit better than some of the more EXTREME view points from the various cults, but yes you are right in saying that IF is isn't RIGHT then it is WRONG, amen and amen. Like I said in my post this morning too, it only took ONE sin to get Adam and Even evicted from their heavenly paradise abode, right?
Janice |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 9:03 am: | |
Sabra, I enjoyed those eight things that your preached spoke on. I do enjoy having those promises lived out in my life as I fight the devil on a daily basis.
I like the armour provided by God to quench those fiery darts of the enemy too Colleen, thanks for reminding me of it.
I have really gotten a lot of encouragement concerning my web site too, so, let's continue on with doing the Lord's work.
God bless everyone for bringing me back to the land of the living, amen.
Janice |
Janice (Janice)
| | Posted on Monday, April 14, 2003 - 9:07 am: | |
Sorry about the typo Sabra, meant to say what your preacher preached on not what your preached on, at least I am not the only one with typos in the FAF, ha, ha, guess it shows our human side, amen.
Janice |
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