Former Adventist Fellowship Forum: Programming note

Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 4:59 am:

Its so funny with the church. They pass down lore and we just believe what they tell us and study no farther then that. That is where yoy hit that brick wall with them. They hear it sometimes get a few proof texts and thats that. Thats all they have to say about that. They told me Billy belived in the sabbath so that was that. I never looked itto it. Well thanks for letting me vent.

Chris (Chris)

Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 7:01 am:

I have come to realize that Adventism has its own urban legends that are passed on and on, but that no one can really give a primary reference for (it's always a friend of a friend of my cousin or some such connection). How many here have heard the one about how a couple of Adventist kids went to a [insert the name of any well known rock group here]concert. And as the concert was starting the singer came to the mic and said, "If there are any Seventh-day Adventist here they better leave now". At which point the SDAs feel a terrible black oppresion and get out of the auditorium as fast as they can. I think this legend is to illustrate the point that SDAs are God's true people as demonstrated by the fact that Satan (all rock music is Satanic of course) can't stand to have them around. Or how 'bout the one about the Adventist lady that was crippled, but went with non-Adventist friends to meetings that featured a faith-healer. She was healed at these meetings and could walk, but she felt uneasy and prayed to God that if this wasn't from Him that He would take it away. When she woke up in the morning she was crippled again. This legend apparently illustrates the point that all faith-healers are of the devil. And then there's the one about how Ozzy Osborne used to be an Adventist and went to [insert the name of your favorite Adventist university here], but left to form Black Sabbath (obviously as a take off on his SDA roots). This is usually accompanied by a claim that the person telling the story knows someone who looked up Ozzy's picture in an old annual proving he really did go to school there. I have no idea what this illustrates other than Adventism's deep need to be significant. I didn't realize how prevalent some of these were until I started talking to friends from other areas and realized that the details changed, but the core of the legends had been being passed around for years. I'm sure there are many other well known SDA legends that people on this board could relate.
Chris

Doug222 (Doug222)

Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 7:33 am:

Did you know that Magic Johnson, Little Richard, Prince, the Mayor of Philadelphia, the boxer who ended up killing a guy (I can't remember his name), the father from "the Brady Bunch," etc. etc. were all Adventist or raised Adventist? Being able to identify a celebrity who also embraces the foolishness that we were raised with legitimizes it. Funny thing, I have never heard anyone say, "did you know _________ was Baptist?" But, I do know that Michael Jackson was raised as a Jehovah's Witness and that Donnie and Marie Osmond were Mormons. Hmmm, maybe we are on to something here.

Chris (Chris)

Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 9:04 am:

Was the boxer named Tommy Morrison??? I never heard anything about a homicide, but he was a fairly decent professional boxer (until a well publicized case of HIV curtailed his boxing career). He also co-starred in Rocky V. I remember when the movie came out it was big news in MO that his gradmother was a member of the K.C. SDA church and a friend of a friend had seen him there a few times as well. Who knows if this tenuous link to Adventism is true or not......but it's kind of pathetic to grasp for such a link either way........I think you're right Doug. If the chaplain of the U.S. senate is an SDA or if you have heard of some celebrity with SDA ties, or the breakfast cereal or snack cakes you eat are from a big company with SDA roots, then somehow it legitimizes being an Adventist. This speaks volumes: 1) Adventism requires some sort of external legitimization because it cannot be legitmized from the Bible alone 2) Many Adventist have an innate sense that they are involved in something that is less than fully legitimate.
Chris

Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 10:06 am:

I had heard that Little Richard and Hiltlerhad some ties. When I was still in church its was funny I used to think to myself.every week we would talk about the sabbath. This is when I believed it but it still hit a nerve every week never Jesus or how proud to be SDA. Thats what I was thinking all other churches do not get up every week and say wow I am glad I am a Baptist etc. I do not miss those long boring prayers either. Oh Great Father who created the universe and put the stars in the sky blah blah blah. I am not being disrespectful its just they would do that and then walk past you and not even say hi. Phoney

Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 1:10 pm:

How interesting! I'd never thought to put all those SDA urban legends together into a focused picture of their need to have external legitimacy. I think you're right. The more recent case of Roger Morneau is another example of their need for external liegitimacy. Imagine, claiming that Satan's supposed warnings to him about the SDA church somehow proved that they ARE the true church!

And Terry, those painful prayers linger in my memory, too. I remember one not too many years ago that began with a rhapsody about the late August summer with the crepe myrtles in bloom, etc., etc., God was somehow part of the external mileu that we gazed at with awe. It was so disquieting.

Praise God for leading us to Himself--we don't external validation anymore!

Colleen

Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 1:40 pm:

Colleen I used to get so upset and then think I was evil because it did not bring peace to my soul to hear them talk. I have been going to church for a year now and can say I have not had to listen to a prayer like that for a year. Thanks for your comments I just wanted to know I was not crazy. Terry

Doug222 (Doug222)

Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 4:46 pm:

The funny thing about this "Urban Legend" thing is that Adventists will latch onto any celebrities attachement to Adventism, no matter how obscure; however, if there is any negative connection to Adventism (even if it is significant), they will be quick to distance themselves. Case in point, Adventists were quick to say that David Koresh had no affiliation, even though he had been a baptized member. They also have been quick to say that Lee Malvo, who was the younger suspect in the sniper case, only attended an Adventist school. He was not an Adventist. And perhaps most significant, the Clear Word Bible was the personal work of Jack Blanco, although it was published by the R&H, advertised, and sold in ABC's all over the country. Such double mindedness.

Doug

Thomas1 (Thomas1)

Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 5:44 pm:

Let's not forget the adventist conference president in Africa who was convicted and sentanced as a criminal of genocide, or his son the doctor in charge of an SDA hospital who was convicted with him.

Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 5:58 pm:

Good point, Doug and Thomas! It doesn't work both ways, does it?!

Steve (Steve)

Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 8:05 pm:

Uhm, let's not forget Vernon Howell, aka David Koresh.

I met an Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms (ATF) person at the New Mexico state fair a year after the Waco incident.

It was near the end of the day. She didn't seem to be in a good mood. I just walked up to her and said, "Thank you for what you did in Waco, Texas."

She stared at me for a few seconds and almost cried. She said, "All day long, people have just come up and criticized and made vicious comments about the ATF and me personally. Thank you. You don't know how much that means to me after a day like this."

Howell was following the Shepherd's Rod teachings specifically, but it's all founded on EGW.

Her teachings lead to death, either in this life, or in the next.

Perhaps that's why Little Richard, The Artist formerly known as Prince, Vernon Howell and I have been screwed up by Adventism. We believed EGW.

But EGW put a WEG between us and Jesus.

Steve

Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 8:10 pm:

In an interview with the Washington Post, the new Senate Chaplain Black indicated that he would NOT pray in the name of Jesus in his new job. This should be exciting news for all Seventh-day Adventists. Being Christ is secondary in many of their doctrines, this should be an easy promise to keep. The process of becoming a Senate Chaplain takes several months the article said. The sermons of the nominee are carefully scrutinized. Fortunately for Chaplain Black, his sermons contained alot of poetry and philosophy--nothing very relational.

An articulate Evangelical minister would probably be bypassed in the nomination process due to being too evangelistic and relational. What kind of "Christian" minister would seek to avoid praying publicly in the name of Jesus?

Dennis J. Fischer

Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 8:30 pm:

PS: Registered online members of the Washington Post can access the archived article titled, "FOR A DELIBERATIVE BODY, A SPIRITUAL HELPER: Navy's Chief of Chaplains Turns to a New Flock on Capitol Hill"
(by Bill Broadway, Staff Writer; Sat. June 21, 2003 page B09).

Dennis J. Fischer

Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 9:13 pm:

Interesting, Dennis. Why am I not surprised? Adventists usually have a hard time saying Jesus' name anyway, and it's not a difficult rationalization to eliminate the name in public if it might "offend" other "sincere" people.

I am overwhelmed to discover how knowing Jesus and knowing I am secure forever in him has made saying his name a privilege.

Colleen

Doug222 (Doug222)

Posted on Tuesday, August 12, 2003 - 10:09 pm:

Let's not be to hard. Thi is how the Senate gets away with having prayer on the floor. One has to pray a non-denominational prayer, so as not to offend anyone. Therefore, it is prayed to a "generic" God. In my time in the military all chaplains prayed this type of prayer. They tended to sound like the prayer you were bemoaning earlier Colleen. Most of the time, the Chaplain's actually read them. I always wondered who they were praying to. They prayers seemed to be more for the benefit of the audience than as an act of worship to God. Any chaplain (regardless of denomination) would be required to pray in this manner.

Doug

Posted on Friday, August 15, 2003 - 8:14 pm:

UPDATE FROM RICHARD PEIFER

After listening to Richard Peifer's testimony on Internet radio, I sent PEOPLE TO PEOPLE MINISTRIES an email message of commendation. The following are excerpts of Richard's email message to me about his journey out of Adventism:

"There was a time when I 'comforted' myself with the fact that I was raised in it so it wasn't my fault, but that's not true. I bought into the Adventist lie with my whole heart. I chose to believe it. Thank God He didn't leave me there...My wife, Lois, is the granddaughter of Fordyce Detamore...One of her great uncles was the GC president...I graduated from Loma Linda University (LaSierra Campus) in 1976 with a Bachelors in Ministerial Studies.

As Providence would have it, I was assigned to the Long Beach church as a student minister. My senior pastor was Walter Rea. "Nough said, except that Lois and I managed the cassette copying/sales associated with his going public with the Ellen White issue in the late '70s.

After that debacle, I got heavily involved in church politics. I figured we could change things if only the right people were in charge. Funny thing, nothing changed despite our best efforts. It was then that I began to learn about all the financial misconduct that was taking place. Very scary times.

I've found that there is nothing a person can say or do that we convince someone else to leave Adventism (another proof of cultism). But any Adventist who is honestly seeking a relationship with Jesus Christ will be brought out by God at the exact right time. He is so good!...Jesus is all that matters."

Richard Peifer is the Project Manager for PEOPLE TO PEOPLE MINISTRIES in Carrollton, Texas. Thanks, Joel, for telling us about his recent radio interview.

Dennis J. Fischer

Posted on Friday, August 15, 2003 - 10:48 pm:

I love his senence, "But any Adventist who is honestly seeking a relationship with Jesus Christ will be brought out by God at the exact right time. He is so good!"

He's absolutely right. God knows those who want to know him, and the timing is all his! It's amazing.

Colleen

Cindy (Cindy)

Posted on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 8:09 am:

Thanks Dennis for the quotes and info on Richard Peifer.

And Colleen, I too, appreciated his observation on honesty, seeking Jesus, and GOD'S timing!

I can work myself into a negative attitude about the whole spiritually WRONG system of Adventism, and trying to bring out the insanity and relegation of JESUS to a secondary position after the holiness of the 7th Day. In actuality. Jesus is made lower than even EGW since she so emphatically states the Sabbath day is to be kept "Holy" or else dire consequences will befall you!

My goal is to walk that fine line with the Holy Spirit... speaking out when I can, but kindly and firmly.

I have received various responses to my exit from Adventism: dismay, anger, laughter, tears, complete denial, letters and articles of persuasion, and probaly the most sad, are statements of "who cares...what does it matter anyway?!"

I now tend to avoid confrontation; though I know in my heart it is better for the TRUTH of JESUS to be proclaimed.

It is not healthy to be in fear; and I am so grateful that Gods' PERFECT LOVE really does cast out my fear!

Grace always,
Cindy

Posted on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 4:17 pm:

Cindy its funny that you say you no longer want to have conforntations. I too feel the same. I at first wanted to tell all my friends who were still in bondage. Funny thing they did not want to hear about any error of the church. I must be crazy. Well I soon found out that church famioly who I thought of more then family soon became strangers to me and either disgusted of afriad I would lead them astray too. Well I truely believe the same thing as stated abouve when we really seek God he shows us truth. Thank God for his love and patience

Posted on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 5:16 pm:

Cindy, and Terry, I also relate to your experiences of feeling less confrontational with Adventists. I'm finding that God truly brings people into my life when he wants me to speak to them about Him. Sometimes they are Adventists, and those almost always drop into my life "out of the blue", so to speak. Almost none of the Adventists who ask me questions are people I really knew when I was in the church.

I've also found that some of the people God sends into my life do not have Adventist backgrounds, but He wants me to speak of Him to them.

2 Corinthians 1:3-6 is true: God comforts us so we can comfort others in trouble with the same comfort we have received.

Thank God that he redeems our past!

Colleen

Cindy (Cindy)

Posted on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 5:21 pm:

Yes, Terryk,
I know what you mean about many who do "not want to hear about any error of the church".

Or, if they do, they think it is just a matter of correcting some bad GC policies, or maybe just focusing on being more loving to one another.

The thinking being that, of course, you would only leave "the church" because you had a falling-out with something or someone... or else had deliberately turned your back on the LAW of God.

The belief is very strong that you would never study your way OUT of "the truth"...but would always study your way IN to it!

It takes a true miracle of God's grace to have one's eyes open (the veil lifted!) to see that, in fact, the whole system is based on falsehood from the start!!

Beginning with its' date-setting for Jesus' return and continuing on with a False "prophet"
who consistently preached the Old covenant (with a strange mixture of the New!).

"But their minds were made dull, for to this day the same veil remains when the old covenant is read. It has not been removed, because only in Christ is it taken away". (2 Corinthians 3:14)

I am so grateful to be free from it's doctrines. Still, it is amazing to me the power it has at times to depress me. I guess that reminder of living "under the law" is good for me--to show me how much I need and really desire Jesus.

The difference of living by the Spirit and not the "letter" is a huge one!

"He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant--not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life".
(2Corinthians 3:6)

Grace always,
Cindy

Cindy (Cindy)

Posted on Saturday, August 16, 2003 - 5:35 pm:

Hi Colleen! I always like when you remind us that God redeems our past!

Grace always,
Cindy