| Author |
Message |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 222
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 9:28 am: |     |
Thank you for the kind words Dennis.
Chris |
Hoytster
Registered user
Username: Hoytster
Post Number: 53
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 10:39 am: | |
Ditto, Chris; great reading.
A few months ago, you suggested that I look at existing articles regarding Sabbath-keeping. Have you written one that's available on the web? Or do you have a pointer to one that you like? (I noticed that several of your essay's scriptural selections were Sabbath-relevant.)
Thanks, Hoytster |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 223
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 03, 2004 - 2:31 pm: | |
Good point Hoyster.....isn't it interesting how clearly ceremonial things like clean and unclean food seem to be equated with the practice of Sabbath observance in several texts? I tend to think that SDAs eventualy had to accept the distinctions between clean and unclean foods becasue it was a natural extension of their belief that we must observe other OT rituals such as Sabbath-keeping.
No, I have authored any articles on Sabbatarian issues. However, there are some excellent white papers from the WWCOG here:
http://www.wcg.org/lit/law/sabbath/
(BTW, this is a formerly sabbatarian organization that was very similar to Adventism in many ways. They have since been reformed and conformed to New Covenant teaching which gives them a great perspective from which to address sabbatarianism).
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Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 283
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 8:35 am: | |
Clean and unclean food was a shadow of how God would justify the Gentiles...he declared them clean...the OT is full of shadows!!! |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 39
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 7:26 pm: | |
Excellent point, Pheeki.
Dennis Fischer |
Steve
Registered user
Username: Steve
Post Number: 2
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, March 04, 2004 - 8:01 pm: | |
Don't forget when God let the sheet down to show Peter the animals and was then told to go, kill and eat. Peter responded that the animals were unclean. God repeated Himself 3 times to Peter.
As Colleen has often said, would God use an un-truth (lie) to tell the truth about something else? Never! God was definitely telling Peter to go and preach to the Gentiles. And, in using the uclean animals as the example, God also showed that the unclean animals were no longer to be considered unclean.
The arguments SDAs use regarding this is that it is ONLY to be understood as referring to the Gentiles, not to food. They make God tell lies so that their clean/unclean dilemma can be maintained.
Steve |
Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 284
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 11:57 am: | |
Exactly!!!!
And I have had reason to study the IJ recently because I am being asked questions by SDA's and I have found they ignore plain scripture (God) and accept lies instead.
The IJ says Jesus entered the Most Holy place in 1844. The bible says in Hebrews 9 that he entered it once and for all!
...but he entered the Most Holy Place once for all by his own blood, having obtained eternal redemption.
24For Christ did not enter a man-made sanctuary that was only a copy of the true one; he entered heaven itself.
Plus the most holy place is not a physical place but it is wherever the most Holy God/Jesus are!!!! HEAVEN! That is the most holy place...how can it get any holier?
Any other thoughts? |
Doug222
Registered user
Username: Doug222
Post Number: 473
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 12:56 pm: | |
Pheeki posted this on CARM today. I recall these Amazing Facts, and in fact really liked them. Reading them now is nothing short of scary. Did we really spew this stuff?
quote:The following are quoted from the Bible study called "You wouldn't Do This..." featuring a man pouring water into his gas tank. This study was copyrighted in 1994, but it is currently is use.
Question 6: "But I like pork. Will God destroy me if I eat it?"
This question is followed by this quote: "For, behold, the Lord will come with fire...and by his sword will the Lord plead with all flesh: and the slain of the Lord shall be many. They that sanctify themsleves, and purify themselves...eating swine's flesh, and the abomination, and the mouse, shall be consumed together, saith the Lord." Isaiah 66:15-17
Answer: This may be shocking, but it is true and must be tolod. The Bible postiively states that all who eat "swine's flesh," the "mouse," and other unclean things that are an "abomination" will be destroyed with fire at the coming of the Lord. When God says to leave something alone and not eat it, we shoulod by all means obey Him. After all, the mere eating of a piece of forbidden fruit by Adam and Eve, a sinless couple, brought sin and death to thijs world in the first place. Can anyone say it doesn't matter, when God soclearly shows it does? God says men will be destroyed b3ecause they "chose that in which I delighted not." Isaiah 66:4.
Question 7. "But didn't this law of clean and unclean animals originate at Sinai? Wasn't it for the Jews only, and didn't it end at the cross?"
"And the Lord said unto Noah,...Of every clean beast thou shalt take to thee by sevens...and of beasts that are not clean by two." (Note that they do not--nor do they later in the study--quote Genesis 9:3 where God tells Noah after the flood, "Everything that lives and moves will be food for you. Just as I gave you the green plants, I now give you everything.")
Answer: "No, indeed! The Bible has ample evidence that there were clean and unclean animals from the very dawn of Creation...The death of Christ had no altering effect whatever on these health laws, since the Bible says that all who break them will be desteroyed when Jesus returnes (Isaiah 66:15-1-7). The Jew's stomach and digestive system in no way differs from that of a Gentile. These health laws are for all people for all time."
The study continues through "proof" that the Bible forbids the use of alcoholic beverages and tobacco and discusses moderation in eating.
Under question 11, "What solemn reminder is given to those who ignore God's rules?" are the following statements: "Those who break God's rules regarding the care of the body machine will reap broken bodies and burned-o9ut lives, just as one who abuses his automobile will have serious care trouble.And those who continue to break God's laws of health will ultimately be destroyed by the Lord (1 Corinthians 3:16-17)God's health laws are not arbitrrary. They are natural, established laws of the universel, like the law of gravity. Ignoring these laws always brings certain disastrous results. The bible says, 'The curse causeless shall not come.' Proverbss 26:2. Trouble comes when we ignore the laws of health."
Question 12: "What fearful, shocking truth about health involves our children and grandchildren?"
"Thou shalt not eat it; that it may go well with thee, and with they chikldren after thee." Deuteronomy 12:25. "I the Lord thy God am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto th third and fourth generation of them that hate me." Exodus 20:5.
Answer: "God makes it very plain that children and grandchildren (to the fourth generation) pay for the folly of parents who ignore God's health reules. The children and grandchildren inherit weakened, sickly bodies when mother and father defy God's rules for their lives. Is that what you want for your dear children and grandchildren?"
I have no probelm with the health issue arguments--a little strong, but true none-the less. But clearly Amazing Facts has made this a salvation issue.
Doug
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Doug222
Registered user
Username: Doug222
Post Number: 474
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 12:57 pm: | |
Oops, I just realized Colleen had posted this back in September. Sorry. Doug |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 222
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 3:02 pm: | |
"I have no probelm with the health issue arguments--a little strong, but true none-the less."
What are you saying? It's parents and grandparents fault if their children aren't healthy??? |
Doug222
Registered user
Username: Doug222
Post Number: 475
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 3:27 pm: | |
Melissa, sometimes children do inherit their health problems. Do you not agree that children can inherit certain genetic tendencies that could be related to diet? The Apostle Paul says that "all things are lawful, but not all things are expedient." The dangers of meats such as pork are well documented. Its just not a salvation issue."
In His Grace
Doug |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 225
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 3:43 pm: | |
Doug, not to argue, but in the interest of science.......
Can you site any modern peer reviewed research journals that show today's pork products have a significantly higher health risk when compared to other comparable animal products?
Just one other medical point I need to make. It is true that a mother's diet may affect her unborn child ***while in the womb*** and ***while nursing***. However, these affects are in no way "genetic". (Perhaps you did not actually mean "genetic" per se). It should also be noted that there is absolutely zero evidence that a father's diet can affect the child in any way shape or form......this idea is superstition. Again, it's not genetic, that has to do with genes and chromosomes, not food.
Chris |
Doug222
Registered user
Username: Doug222
Post Number: 476
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 4:47 pm: | |
I cannot site any specific research that connects pork to higher health risks--of course I havenb't looked either. Maybe I am falling to superstition (or the remnants of Adventist indoctrination). Now that I think of it, these two might be one in the same <smile>.
Anyway, doesn't the consumption of pork lead to high blood pressure, which can be passed on to children? Just a question. It seems as though yu guys are saying there are no health risks associated with eating "unclean meats." Is this correct?
Lest anyone think I am being argumentative, let me clarify that I don't have any stake in this discussion one way or another. I do not believe that New Covenant Christians are bound by the Old Covenant helath laws. I believe I am free to consume everything. However, I do not feel compelled to seek it out. If it is presented before me, I will eat it, but don't consume it as a rule. Simply a matter of personal preference.
In His Grace
Doug |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 40
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, March 05, 2004 - 5:39 pm: | |
As our Sunday School teacher recently stated, "Just because the Bible says that we CAN eat meat, doesn't mean that we SHOULD." Under the new covenant, this is another freedom we have in Christ.
We can enjoy our individual food preferences without being worried about losing our salvation. Living on this side of the Cross is certainly alot easier for us. Certainly, we want to honor our body temples by living healthfully.
Dennis Fischer |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 226
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 06, 2004 - 11:16 am: | |
Correct, I'm saying there are no specific health risks associated with eating pork versus other comparable meats such as beef. It's fair to say that excessive consumption of animal products can contribute to high cholesterol, heart disease, and other health problems, but there's just no scientific evidence that I'm aware of that would single out pork, or any other "unclean meat" for that matter, as being a significant health risk when compared to other meats (particularly red meats). Fish and poultry are obviously lower in fat and cholesterol so they are indeed a healthier choice then red meats, but here again this distinction does not fall along the lines given for clean vs. unclean foods.
Yes, you can pass along a hereditary disposition to high blood pressure, high cholesterol, diabetes, heart disease and a host of other things. However, this is determined by your genetic code and NOT by anything that you eat. The idea that eating a certain food would make your children inherit certain traits is a 19th century fable that was popular in EGW's time. With the exception of those substance that cross the placenta barriar in utero and during nursing (not a genetic or hereditary matter), there is no way to affect your children by what you eat.
I'm not trying to convince anyone to eat meat, I'm just trying to state what I believe to be medical fact. I often find myself coming up with ideas that I think are fact only to find out they are deeply imbedded from my Adventist upbringing. I would submit to you that a parent's diet affecting their child (with the exceptions I noted above) is one of those deeply imbedded hold overs from Adventism that bares no resemplance to medical science.
I would further submit that the idea that the food laws in the OT were primarily about the physical health of Israel (as opposed to being primarily a ceremonial ritual demonstrating holiness - being set apart) is deeply rooted in Adventism as well (although I've seen a few other commentators suggest similar things).
Chris |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 98
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 12:35 am: | |
Chris, I believe you are right; I know of no scientific evidence that pork is less healthful than other red meats. In fact, I believe some cuts of beef are probably higher in fat than pork. I also have concluded that the OT food laws were NOT about health--contrary to what I was taught as a child. There's just no evidence that I know of that suggests that the "unclean" meats are less healthful than the "clean" ones. They were ritually unclean, not literally unclean--at least when properly prepared!
(As far as literally unclean goes--poultry can be seriously contaminated compared to beef. No one would dare to eat "rare" chicken!)
BTW, I'm branching out; I'm fixing salmon for dinner tomorrow---!
Colleen |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 218
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 7:14 am: | |
Shoot, Colleens' fixing salmon and I can't get there for dinner!
Just don't overcook it--fish cooks much faster than other 'meat'.
Nope, there's no evidence that 'unclean meat' is somehow far more unhealthy for you. If you want to really tweak an SDA sometime, tell them their obsession with diet and health is just because they are afraid to die. I'm not afraid too because I believe what Paul wrote that 'to be absent from the body is to be present with Christ'. 
Bill |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 223
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 07, 2004 - 4:55 pm: | |
I have heard salmon is one of the healtiest foods that can be eaten according to 'secular' health gurus. (saw it on Oprah, so must be true)
My concern, Doug, is that B says my daughter "might" be retarted, autistic, etc. because I ate meat and drank milk. I have never had an illegal drug, I have "tasted" alcohol maybe 3 times, didn't like it and certainly NEVER been drunk, I have never smoked. I am a bike rider and like to camp and kayak. My daughter's condition is a sulfer deficiency in her DNA. It is missing cistine. A study of the literature reveals there were only about 100 diagnosed cases of her disorder at the time of my research (10 years ago). Now it would seem to me if eating meat and drinking milk caused such disorders, many many more than 100 cases would be identified. So, what's my point besides being defensive ... when "generalizing" about cause and effect things, we ought to be darned sure of our facts. A parent like me does not need one more ounce of guilt heaped upon their head by supposedly well-meaning people who are trying to help you figure out what you are doing wrong to your child to cause her problems. Once a diagnoses is actually identified (years later), no one comes back and apologizes or says "maybe you're not a horrible mother afterall." I say that a little tongue in cheek and a little dead seriously. My cousin had 4 children by 4 men, married to none of them, drank, smoked, did drugs during all her pregnancies, yet 4 perfectly healthy beautiful children. IF you can ALWAYS make those generalizations, perhaps mothers like me DO deserve the guilt heaped upon them, but I did not choose which genes my child ended up with, God did. Sickle cell is genetically based...do we blame parents because their children have sickle cell?? I could really go on because this is a hot hot button for me, but I hope you get the point. My children are my heart. I don't know a mother, even a lost unGodly mother, who wants to see her children suffer. Many times so called "murder-suicide" looked like a good solution to get me and my retarded child out of people's way. I wish I could count the times I asked God if that wouldn't be the perfect way out of this whole thing for me. But he never let me take that out. duh! I hope I have sounded more than defensive, but as a broken mom who would have done anything, even not eat meat, if I really thought it would help my child.
My Bible still says God numbers our days and that I cannot add anything to them. Does that mean I jump in front of mack trucks or don't wear seat-belts? No. But as loneviking said, death usually looks better to me than life. Unless you've tried to raise a retarded, autistic child, you can't comprehend what I mean.
I've also searched the literature. More to argue with B, but searched it none the less. I couldn't find anything in meat studies which makes it inheretently unhealthy. The fact that our bodies require B12, which is ONLY found in animal sources tends to tell me God intended us to eat from animal sources. But that isn't the point near as much as a defense of Moms. I doubt you really intended to light such a fire, and I'm sorry if I sound as though I'm lashing back. But that is a really old SDA argument, as far as I'm concerned.
Still friends, I presume... :-) |
Steve
Registered user
Username: Steve
Post Number: 3
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 12:26 am: | |
Healthy??? Why did God make my taste buds? I think He enjoyes our enjoyment of His great food. God coulda made animals out of anything. He chose to make them out of meat. Sounds like an invitation to me!!!
The salmon was just plain GOOOOD!
Salmon cooked in tangelo(?) juice w/onions...
mmm, mmm good. A bit of heavens' hor d' ouvres before the marriage supper of the Lamb. |
Doug222
Registered user
Username: Doug222
Post Number: 481
Registered: 3-2001
| | Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 12:40 am: | |
Whoa, I think I stepped on a land mine this time. Melissa, I am so sorry if I offended you by my comments. That certainly was not my intent. You are absolutely right that when we make generalizations, we hurt a lot of innocent people. Actually, I learned a lot from this discussion. Its just another one of those areas where you realize you still have blind spots. I hope you will forgive me for my insensitivity.
In His Grace
Doug |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 224
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 7:50 am: | |
You're not the first, Doug, and doubtful the last. Statistics are fine, until they are you. People (not just SDAs) who have never experienced the disability or disease of a child have no idea the guilt a parent of those children carries. And our society, who thinks everything is solved by a pill, diet or exercise regime, has no clue how to deal with "us" who fall outside their statistical bell curve. Fortunately, getting a diagnose kindof "relieved" me of guilt (and 2 other "normal" children), but the stories I could tell... Here's just one... I've mentioned elsewhere, my mother and I came at absolute odds regarding my daughter, here's the story. She finally resorted to impersonating me to get access to my daughter's medical records. She just couldn't believe there was not something I could "do" to "fix" her. She called my pediatrician and told him she had been seen by a doctor in her area (a lie) and that she needed xyz medicine because she talked to a friend who said she should have that medicine. Then she gave me the medicine prescribed by my doctor, when no doctor had really seen her. When I asked how she got the medicine, I was livid. How dare she...now she was messing with my daughter's health (who knows what the medicine could have done to her) but she was my mother. What do you do? For years, I accepted all the blame and guilt and just absolutely wallowed in despair feeling I had failed at the most basic human calling...even my mother thought so. How could God really want anything to do with me? Oh, I could go on and on. But God sent someone (a doctor) who actually "admired" my efforts towards my daughter and thought I was the best asset she had. As he put in extraordinary efforts into helping get answers for her, he helped heal me too. I usually accept people's platitudes and ignorance silently, but the older I get, the less tolerance I have for it. Who knows who is hurting around us in solitary silence because they feel condemned not only by the world but by God as well? My silence only adds (albeit, passively) to that pain. Listening to B spout his "health message" all these years has just rubbed me raw. There is no magic pill or diet that would have or could have fixed my child (and there isn't for many people). She is the child GOD made her to be. I can't explain it, but that's just one of many quandries I have in life... Her's is just the most personal.
Sorry if that little tyraid was off the topic line. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 99
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 12:31 pm: | |
Melissa, I talked to the mother of an adult developmentally disabled child a couple of years ago, and she said something I've never forgotten. God gives us these special children, she said, because without them, we as a race would have a hard time developing compassion. They are part of God's provision for fallen humanity to draw them out of themselves and to allow God to develop unselfishness and concern in all of us.
Of course your diet isn't the reason for your daughter's syndrome! We can only ask God to glorify himself through circumstances like yours and trust that his purposes are, as always, sovereign and beyond our ability to understand. God will redeem this in your lives. He is faithful.
Love,
Colleen |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 226
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, March 08, 2004 - 12:44 pm: | |
I've always said I understand how God can love me unconditionally, because I love her unconditionally. And she can't begin to comprehend the things that happen to her that I try to protect her from. When I don't understand things, I try to remember that in reality, I'm Rachel and God sees what I can't. But that is years into the process, not at the beginning.. I'd say I'm "used" to it, but she's still my child. I don't know how to quit hoping God will heal her. |
Lydell
Registered user
Username: Lydell
Post Number: 569
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 6:29 am: | |
Melissa....prayers for you today.
I have an adult niece who is mildly retarded/autistic. It was many years before she was properly diagnosed (by the way, I seriously doubt that the girls mother ever has drunk milk). That has to have been so tremendous hard on you not knowing what was wrong. No doubt it isn't easy for you!
These kids are able to see such a simple view of the world. Maybe that is one of their gifts to the world. A friend with an autistic son tells me that many times her day is turned around by her sons singing. She reports crying over some exreme stress in her life one day. Her son came in the room gave her a huge hug and kiss and started singing something like, "don't worry, Jesus loves you."
Maybe you will appreciate this story Melissa. A few years ago my brother committed suicide. Needless to say it was an enormously stressful time for the whole family. When Shana's father was taking her home after leaving the funeral, he decided that he needed to have a talk with her to see if she understood anything of what was happening. He asked her if she knew what had just happened. yes, uncle Gary had died and everyone was sad. "And do you know what happens after you die Shana?" "Yes," she happily replied, "you go to Wendy's for a cheeseburger!" Her dad said at that moment he was kind of jealous of her.
A couple years ago Shana sang Jesus Loves Me in her church. From what I hear, there wasn't a dry eye in the place. His power is certainly seen in their weakness at times! |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 227
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 09, 2004 - 7:51 am: | |
Rachel can't carry a note in a bucket as they say, but one day a lady stood up to sing a solo in church (Rachel was with her) and it was a very small country church so she decided to sing from her pew so she didn't have to leave Rachel. As she stood up to sing Amazing Grace, Rachel stood up and started singing with her. I hear it was very moving to all who were there.
There are those glimpses and moments, but there are certainly the rest too. She's 14 now. I'm actually on a little bit of a pendulum because I'm thankful she's not into what some other 14 year olds are now into. That doesn't make it less hard, but I could be worrying about drugs and sex and alcohol instead of the challenges she has. The ones she has might kill me, but they won't hurt her. :-) You have to take those little bright spots wherever they land.... |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 548
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, May 20, 2004 - 10:48 am: | |
I have a few spare minutes so I've been reading some of the older entries. Doug 222, you quoted Ex. 20:5, "I the lord your God am a jelous God, visiting the inquities of the fathers upon the third asnd forth generation of them that hate me". Sadly, I grew up with this text always over my head like a hurricane ready to strike me at any moment that I might do something bad. I remember my mother telling me I'd best not ever do anything not 100% right or all the problems my heirs would have would be my fault. I also was told, and still am sometimes except that I've learned to just leave the room when I start hearing something I don't want to hear, that whenever something bad happens to me and my children that it must be our ancestors faults back four generations. When something bad happens my mom has guilt and says she hopes it wasn't because of her side of the family. I grew up just hateing that text and I know I shouldn't hate what the Bible says so could someone please explain that text. BTW, except for being a real little girl in Cradel Roll and Kindergarten and at that time singing songs like, "Jesus Loves Me" and, "Jesus Loves the Little Children" etc., the religion I was raised with was very unjoyful and very rigid and harsh. We never did anything pagan, like have a Christmas tree or let me have a good time on Holloween. I got to have birthday parties though and for some reason unknown to me my mom always liked Valentine's Day. Go figure. It makes no sense at all. I tell people I was raised with a very schitzophrenic religion. |
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