| Author |
Message |
Steve
Registered user
Username: Steve
Post Number: 28
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 10:59 am: |     |
I'm not so sure it's such a small movement. There are folks in the Southeastern California Conference office who receive the magazine, Our Firm Foundation, from Hope International on a monthly basis. I receive it free of charge because years ago, I sent them some money and requested a subscription.
Ron Spears and Joe Olson will be speaking here in Riverside, CA on April 24th.
There isn't a name, only address of the location here in Riverside. I might be correct in assuming that it's in a SDA church. I have to work that day, so I won't be able to have the "blessing" of hearing Spears himself speak.
They are extremists. I'll have a close encounter of the 0th kind.
Steve |
Steve
Registered user
Username: Steve
Post Number: 29
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 11:05 am: | |
P. S. Hope International has relocated this year to Knoxville, Ohio. This was the home of the group known as The Way, started by Victor Paul Wierwille.
Poor Knoxville. I wonder how the Christians there do with such strong delusions? |
Sabra
Registered user
Username: Sabra
Post Number: 72
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 8:02 pm: | |
Sure didn't know any SDA's were embracing anything Jewish, that is news to me. I always remember being told that the Jews killed Jesus so He replaced them with the SDA's.
(big eye roll)
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 170
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, April 18, 2004 - 11:28 pm: | |
BTW, Steve's reveiw/comparison of the new Annotated Edition of Questions on Doctrine with the original book is now posted on this website under the "Studies" button. Steve has done a wonderful job distilling the history of the book and the current denominational stance.
Check it out! (There will be an edited edition of it in Proclamation.)
Colleen |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 281
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 8:10 am: | |
Colleen, I tried the link, but got an error about not being found on the server??? Not sure if is our firewall here or if something else is going on. If the link is okay, I'll have to read it from home.... where I don't get censored. :-) |
Loneviking
Registered user
Username: Loneviking
Post Number: 236
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 9:52 am: | |
Nope, link just doesn't work. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 174
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, April 19, 2004 - 9:57 am: | |
Sorry--Richard will fix that problem hopefully tonight!
Colleen |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 282
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 8:13 am: | |
Wow! I just read Steve Pitcher's review. Truly excellent. I'm a bit shocked at how readily Adventism is re-embracing some of the cultic doctrines of yesteryear. In particular, it seems they are ready to revive the idea that Christ had a sinful nature.
Chris |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 20
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 8:57 am: | |
In reference to the Gatororeo and being in the military. Thank God you have fortified yourself with His truth. The Holy Spirit will bring things to your mind when you need it. Just be faithful. You might ask your SDA colleague why he is in the military as SDAs only go in if drafted and there is not draft. Just a thought.
As for the Easter bunnny put up by Barbisgirl, it is your mother's problem and not yours. Just think of the serenity prayer on occasions like that. "God, Grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference." You can only change yourself. You cannot change your mother, so leave her to God. That prayer has saved me many trials with others and helped me to detach from their problems. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 177
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, April 20, 2004 - 10:09 am: | |
Yes, Chris, I agree. I'm struck by the apparent fact that two things are going on simultaneously: one is that in certain areas, Adventists are "redefining" their beliefs and making them more outwardly evangelical without ever truly understanding the underlying significane of God's justice, wrath, and judgment or their own deep need of repentance. The other phenomenon is a return to the orignial roots of Adventism.
Both phenomena are a result of the perpetual reality of Adventism: it is founded on a lie. Deception is at its core. I've thought for a long time that Adventism will either suck you ever deeper into cultic beliefs and behavior, ultimately leading you to mental illness, or it will begin to fling you farther and farther away from an understanding of and ultimately a belief in God. I see these two extremes happening today.
Praise God he gives us truth!
Colleen |
Praisegod
Registered user
Username: Praisegod
Post Number: 34
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 5:01 am: | |
I second Chris' comments on Steve's review. I would encourage everyone here to take time to read it. At least the GC administration is being a bit more honest. Has this information been passed on to Ravi, Hank and others who need to really take a look at what's going on? Does anyone know how members reacted to these "clarifications"? With a yawn because they really donít care?
The other day I was thinking that one of Satan's best ploys has been to keep people hanging in as cultural Adventists. No relationship with Jesus; no joy for the journey; no understanding of the freedom they could have. So sad.
Praise God...
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Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 299
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 8:31 am: | |
Was anyone told this as a child? That God would go ahead and kill off the old and weak who couldn't make it through the time of trouble before it happens?
Isn't that ridiculous! God can do anything...he could make the old and week invisible if he needed to...why would he kill them off!!! Such little faith in the power of God.
More SDA baggage unpacking in my brain. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 182
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 10:05 am: | |
Yes, Pheeki, I was told God would basically allow the old and the weak to die because they wouldn't be able to make it. I used to worry that I would somehow be in that number (maybe because I had eaten some meat--I remember worrying agonizingly as a teenager after a family holiday meal with my European-descended family at which we had turkey. Perhaps I had already disqualified myself for translation?!?! What a temptation that I liked that turkey. Would I be able to make a commitment never to eat it again? I worked myself into quite a state...Yes, I was most neurotic teenager!)
PraiseGod, I do think cultural Adventism is one of the ploys to keep people in bondage. It's bondage as surely as is historical Adventism or total unbelief.
As far as the question of how Adventists are responding to the new Annotated QOD, I haven't heard anything. My guess is that most people will not sit and read it; they may buy it for its historical value--the "heirloom" feeling. If they do read it, my (cynical) suspicion is that most will not really understand the implications of Knight's annotations. It's been nearly 50 years since the original QOD was written, and probably most Adventists don't really remember the bru-ha-ha. That book ushered in enough changes in language and teaching that, I suspect, most Adventists will not really understand the core doctrinal questions at stake.
I could be wrong. I do think, though, that the administration is trying to tighten up and reinforce the true Adventist doctrines.
Colleen |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 285
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 6:01 pm: | |
Yes, Pheeki. I was told that those who weren't strong enough to go through "the time of trouble" would be alowed to die before it came. I was so terrified and upset about the idea of having to run to the mountains and survive outdoors with people chasing me that as a child I used to pray to God that He would let me die before the time of trouble. I used to obess over how we would even make it to the mountains since we lived in the Midwest.....just thinking about it brings feelings or terror and memories of sleepless nights.
BTW, did anyone else play "time of trouble" survival games in academy?
Chris |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 286
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 6:10 pm: | |
Colleen, I agre with your comments above.
I live in a hotbed of Adventim, Lincoln, NE (UC). I don't have much experience with the ultra conservative SDA churches in the area, but I know a lot of people at the college and at the big College View Church. In my experience it is doubtful that 90+% of my aquaintances even know what QOD is or would care one way or another. I think cultural Adventism has become the predominate group in many of the SDA meccas. These cultural Adventist are quite sure that whatever Adventism teaches must be correct and must be straight from the Bible, but even cursory discussions reveal that they can't correctly state SDA beliefs and don't really care about such things. Their faith is a blind faith that has confidence that they must be "in the truth", but they couldn't really tell you what that truth is and don't really care to check it out.
I have actually been told by SDAs in Lincoln, that they believe what they believe because they know smart people have looked into it and that's good enough for them. I would just about guarantee that very very few of these cultural SDAs would ever make a trip to the local ABC to by some obscure book from the 50s that discusses doctrine........just not going to happen.
Chris |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 184
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, April 21, 2004 - 6:17 pm: | |
I've heard that very same comment: "Brighter minds than mine have investigated it, and that's good enough for me."
Your description, Chris, of cultural Adventism that permeates Adventist meccas is absolutely correct. It reminds me of the phrase I learned 'way back when (in a much different context!) in the KJV: "having a form of godliness but lacking the power thereof." |
Sabra
Registered user
Username: Sabra
Post Number: 77
Registered: 10-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, April 22, 2004 - 7:35 pm: | |
I remember hearing a story in that "hushed" whisper, ya know--about some old woman that had prayed not to go through the tribulation and had died right there with her bible on her chest. Good grief, that was 20 years ago or more!
I used to pray to die before it ever came. I believe, strongly that God gave me Revelation 3:10 as a promise when I was just 10 or 11. I memorized it and just kept it in my heart. "Because thou hast kept the word of My patience, I will also keep you from the hour of temptation that will come on the whole earth to try those that dwell on the earth."
God is so awesome. |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 509
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 23, 2004 - 3:26 pm: | |
I, too was told that those who were too weak either spritutally or emotionally or physically who knew the truth of the Sabbath would be allowed to die rather than having to submit to the Sunday laws at the time of tribulation. The grown-ups in my life when I was a kid who had indroctranation power over me always gave me a picture of dread at the coming of Jesus. When I was really little, like 3rd-5th grades, I would pray and pray that God would let me die before Jesus came so I wouldn't have to fall for the Sunday laws because I thought I wouldn't be emotionally strong enough to resist, especially when the adults would be talking about all the torture the people with the truth would have to endour. Then the adults would sit back ever so smug and gloat about how fortunate they were that they out of all the earths billions of people, they were the only ones with the rest of the Little Flock (code for SDA's) who God gave the truth, all truth too. I used to wonder how come they thought it was so wonderful that they had the truth. It looked to me that the rest of my neighbors were a lot more happy having Saturday afternoon barbeques, drinking beer while washing their cars and going to dances. Finilly I figured it out. My neighbors really were more happy! BTW, I have numerous kin who attend non-SDA Sabbath-keeping denominations and even these Sabbath-keepers were excluded from being in the truth. Never made any sense and the older I get the more I have just come to the conclusion that it is a warped brain-control that the General Conference has over it's members to get their money. Yeah, I know it sounds like some weird conspiricy theory I've conjoured up but nonetheless that's what I truly believe. |
Praisegod
Registered user
Username: Praisegod
Post Number: 55
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 4:15 am: | |
For the past few days I've been visiting my daughter and son-in-law who live fairly near Southern University. They are "formers" too and yesterday I visited their church. One of their friends is also a "former" and my kids had told her a little bit about me so she sought me out after the service.
As the story unfolded, she told me God first got her attention by having her study the book of Hebrews. This lady is a nurse near Collegedale and has a very charismatic personality that people are automatically drawn to. At her work, she has been finding and ministering to all sorts of disaffected Adventists, questioning Adventists, ex-Adventists too guilty to try Sunday church etc, all of whom are searching for the "something more" that they feel has to be out their somewhere. She told me she feels really called to those who are wanting to know the Gospel and who are searching for answers. And she said there are thousands in this area. Furthermore, she feels that God brought my kids to that church so they can be ministering together with small groups to those searching for more.
Even to this day this woman says the Adventists will not believe she left because of doctrinal differences because soon afterwards she met and married her husband who is a Sunday keeper. She says that was God blessing her in a special way when she had to walk away from all her friends and family, bringing her a solid true Christian husband.
Are there any groups of formers around the Chattanooga/Cleveland area that anyone knows of? Perhaps they could hook up with them.
Praise God...
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Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 537
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Monday, May 17, 2004 - 7:45 pm: | |
My mom gets a lot of SDA junk mail. Recently she got a booklet advertising books and pamphlets she can order and I don't remember it this stuff is actually through the conference or not but one of the booklets offered is the comparison of the SDA church with the ancient Jewish church, AKA: the Chosen Children of God. The ad didn't go into the similarities. I guess you have to send in some $ and read the book to find that out. I remember back nearly 4 years ago a lot of SDA's were really jazzed at the thought of having a Sabbath-keeper in the White House (The Gore-Leiberman team). I kept telling the SDA's that I would speek with, and once this even was at the potluck after a Sabbath service at the local church, someone was all happy at the table I was sitting at that a Sabbath-keeper hopefully would hold the position of vice president and I said I was really hoping to have an administration that embrased Christianity. Whoa! I think I could have cut the air with a dull knife after I said that! |
