| Author | Message | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 124 Registered: 12-2003 |
Praisegod, I have to say I agree with the above posts. Here's my take on things, although I really can't say for sure: I believe that MANY Adventists are beginning to question and study. That "many" includes pastors. There seems to be an increasing number of Adventists who are leaving or considering leaving the church. I personally cannot see how the Adventist church will ever "change" and become a "grace-oriented" church, because by its very nature from its beginnings it was, as Loneviking pointed out, founded on doctrines and beliefs that are in opposition to the Bible and to orthodox Christianity. I suppose it's remotely possible that it could undergo a reformation like the Worldwide Church of God experienced, but I suspect that possibility is unlikely--for the same reasons the church can't truly become "grace oriented". In addition, the GC seems to be tightening it's "grip" on the 27 fundamentals; Paulsen endorsed them in his Spring, 2002, speech which was published in the Review. What I suspect is this: those who truly want to know the truth will find it, and an increasing number of people will leave the church. I suspect this exit will include more pastors as time goes on. Yes, I know that many are studying and becoming more "grace-oreinted", and many say the Sabbath is not required for salvation, nor are all the 27 fundamentals. Yet when the rubber meets the road, so to speak, most pastors will not actually leave because it would mean losing all of their porfessional life including their salaries and their retirement benefits. Only those who have truly met Jesus--not merely intellectually assented to the new covenant--will have the courage to actually walk away. Many hope and talk of the church changing, but that is mostly, I believe, a wish, not a reality. The wish is that the church could provide an enviornment where the embarrassing cultic aspects of Adventism are buried and only the accepted "Christian" doctrines are preached. Yet when Adventists approach their Adventism that way (as I did for many years before leaving), they do not deal with the truth that they belong to an organization which officially believes something very different from what it's publicly saying. Unless a miracle happens and the GC leaders and the church's theologians actually are born again and accept Jesus only (I know there may be some that have, but I'm speaking in generalizations!), thus sparking a true reformation and a public apology for EGW, for the twisted doctrines, and for the deception, I do not believe that the church will change. Any "changes" will be external face-lifts that make the church look better in public. If the church truly reformed, there would be no need to have it any longer. It exists only to house its unique mix of doctrines; if those go, its members would be better off, I believe, to join already existing Christian churches and begin to heal and to learn what the Bible truly teaches. For the Adventist church to reform and to continue to exist and to employ its pastors, teachers, etc., would be to inevitabely (if unwittingly) still function within its old cultic framework in many ways. People who find Jesus need to enter the reality of true Christian community. If Adventism reformed but continued to function, it would still have cultic overtones: what would its name be? How could it still be the SEVENTH-DAY Adventist church if it really discovered Jesus was the Sabbath rest? It would be something like the Mormons becoming Christian but continuing as a distinct denomination; would they still be Mormons--the Church of Jesus Christ of the Latter-day Saints? I think you see the problem I'm trying to describe. Yes, I believe many people are changing, and many people are studying. God is calling people to truth and to Himself. The SDA church was, I discovered, the "world" from which God was calling me in order to belong only to him. More and more people are beginning to respond. I find that I pray that Adventists will find Jesus and that the truth about Adventism will become known. I still believe that, just as the Corinthians had to stop eating the meat offered to their old idols while Paul could eat it without problems, just so Adventists who find Jesus have to leave behind the trappings and familiar habits of their Adventism, especially the Sabbath, in order to fully experience their freedom in Christ and to walk fully by faith without "hedging their bets" by Sabbath worship/observance. God alone knows what's coming; I just pray that all of us will grow in him and that he will protect us all from deception. Colleen | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 580 Registered: 7-2000 |
Chris, as I was saying before, I think He had us go to the church for a time, because there was little chance we would have met that handful of folks in the church who were open otherwise. The lady I mentioned who had been in an abusive marriage told us, I guess it was a year or more after her escape, that she was certain the Lord had put us there for her. A son of our other friend who left with us, thanked my husband recently for having played a huge part in getting him where he is today (he and his wife are committed believers and active in our church). We would not have known his family if we had not attended the SDA's. Still, I can look back and see that we met both of those families within the first 2 years, and possibly the first year that we were SDA. I think the rest of the time was our idea, not God's. No we definitely don't keep the saturday sabbath anymore. We had continued observing the 7th day for a time even after the Lord led us to begin attending the Vineyard where we are now members. We had met together on one sabbath, as we were doing frequently at the time, and had had a discussion of "why". "Why" did the Lord take us through that, and what was going on now. Why why why? My friend had left the room to do something, and came back a short time later with a funny look on her face. She had just been given a vision (hey, we definitely didn't believe in that sort of thing!). In the vision our two families were walking thru the woods carrying a bunch of boxes. Along the trail, at a fork, we met Jesus. He told us to sit down our boxes and follow Him. "But Lord," we had replied, "we have all our stuff in these boxes, we can't just leave it here." "Just sit it here," He had replied, "and follow me. You can come back for it later." Our friend was mystified as to the meaning. But my husband and I immediately understood it's meaning. Jesus was telling us to sit down the sabbath and all our other questions and just follow Him. There were more important things he was teaching us. We'd get back to the questions later. It was a confirmation of something I had been suspecting for some time. And that's what I did. The questions would come to mind sometimes, and I would briefly give them back to the Lord and tell Him that when He was ready to explain, I was ready to listen. Until then, I wasn't going to stress out trying to figure out the questions. Finally I stopped thinking about the questions. Then one morning, totally unexpected, I awoke with my first conscious thought being, "it's time to go look in the boxes." And immediately after that I remembered a website address (mind you I can NEVER remember those things when I want to!) I had seen a couple years before. I'd clicked on it way back then, saw it was something about sabbath observance no longer being needed, and in some disgust had immediately closed it and went on to something else. Well, I prayed, "on no Lord. I'm not going looking at that until I review with you the reasons you laid on me originally to keep sabbath. They were..." And you know....I couldn't dredge them up!! That sure got me curious. So I went back to the website, saw it was a whole bunch of chapters from a book, clicked on one at random about half way through and began reading still expecting to be skeptical. But the thing that immediately leaped off the screen was, "Jesus IS the sabbath rest." Sorry that was so long guys, and a rerun for many of you. | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 250 Registered: 7-2003 |
Thank you Lydell. What a great testimony! Chris | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 581 Registered: 7-2000 |
And you know Chris, from the instant I saw that, I was at rest on the issue. Sure I went ahead and looked at what the author had to say. Of course, I restudied the whole issue strictly relying on the scriptures and Holy Spirit afterwards. But it just fell together so clearly and easily. Funny how much easier it is to learn when the Holy Spirit is involved in the teaching. I suspect it is that way for many issues in our Christian walk. There is a time for serious study, serious digging, and a need for tenacity to understand a subject thorougly. And, of course, there are times when we study and it doesn't come together because we are beginning from a wrong assumption. But then I've learned there are also the times when we don't understand something because we are trying to make it THE ISSUE, while God isn't even interested in working with us on that point at the moment. No, instead He has something that is far more pressing an issue for us, (and likely something we haven't wanted to think about previously). But instead of paying attention to that point, we are off poking around in the cabinets like an unruly child....or else constantly whining "but Gooood, what about....." I'm glad He's so patient. | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 553 Registered: 7-2000 |
Lydell, Yes, it is wonderful to have an all-knowing and patient God!! One comment you made I am puzzeled about; that "the Lord laid a conviction on us to keep the 7th-day Sabbath". I wonder, does GOD purposely lead us into error? Or does He work all things out for good to those who love and want to follow Him? ...being patient with us despite our misunderstanding of the finality of the New Covenant's rest and freedom in Christ Jesus...? Could those people you met in your SDA experience be part of that "all things working out for good"? Could it be that God redeems even our bad decisions? ... that God redeems our situations when He knows our hearts' desire is to ultimately just follow Him? grace always, cindy | ||
| Lydell Registered user Username: Lydell Post Number: 583 Registered: 7-2000 |
Cindy, we can keep any day as a special time with God, any hour, any week, etc. as a personal thing between us and God. The error comes in making those committments a requirement for everyone, or connecting them with salvation. Those additional requirements of what to do with our time never came from Him...we laid those on ourselves. Likely His only intention was to get us to attend the church for a time. As I said, I realize now it was likely His intention that it be a very short time. Certainly if we had been using some discernment, we would have recognized the churning we felt when we would go to church and would have questioned Him further, would have been most seriously interested in getting confirmation from Him and listening...and would have had Christian friends praying with us for the answers! Had we done that, we would have taken FAR better advantage of the opportunities there to witness! I'm disgusted that we didn't do that. Also, He had laid this conviction on us only. As I look back, I can see that He never presented it from the point of "all Christians should do this." Certainly God redeems our bad decisions, and redeems our situations when we are sincerely following Him. Aren't we thankful! But I do know that the conviction to go there came from Him. Absolutely one of the questions I want to ask when we get to heaven is what it was all about. Could be the answer will be that He only intended for us to go a week or two as a way to open deeper conversation with our SDA neighbors! Yeah....and we stayed like 8 years! stoopid! | ||
| Cindy Registered user Username: Cindy Post Number: 554 Registered: 7-2000 |
Lydell, Thanks for your response... :-) I also have some questions to ask of God! grace always, cindy | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 54 Registered: 10-2001 |
Can we just pray, in agreement, that the Holy Spirit will continue to draw the Adventists? I do see change in them, slow but lots of change, I don't want to be pessimistic. We have not because we ask not. Can we just ask? Anybody up for a 30 day prayer vigil for the Seventh day Adventist pastors and members? | ||
| Doc Registered user Username: Doc Post Number: 64 Registered: 2-2003 |
Sabra, I would be willing to join in. I have one or two in mind myself to pray for. Adrian | ||
| Hallanvaara Registered user Username: Hallanvaara Post Number: 18 Registered: 1-2004 |
Interesting conversations and views. I don¥t know what it¥s like to "whizz" into adventism ¥cause I¥m raised as it and my brainwashing was very thorough-going. I was a kind child and believed everything my mom said to me. Even as an adult I denied to think with my own brains, obeyed those strict and harsh rules. But at the same time I felt so, so ill. It seemed that our salvation was always on the edge. You have to keep everything exactly or you were lost. Now it seems to me like some kind of perverted game. Salvation game. Follow the line or you¥re dead. I remember that one summerday I wrote a letter to my sister and finally threw away that awful, gnawing hair-shirt I had in my soul. I was furious about my misleading. I no more refused to look into those empty tombs who are so pure and white but inside there is only bones of the dead. I rebelled against everything that was taught to me. I didn¥t grasp why they teach health reform and still they drink coffee (in secret of course, but sometimes you caught them on the spot)and eat hamburgers, they require from a person to participate lessons before they can be baptised and most of all: there are nowhere Christ. SDA¥s like to rule everything and make quite hard to get in heaven. Actually, they don¥t leave much to do to God. To me it was like they pushed God into a corner and said: Wait here, we do all the rest. That day began my healing, but it took long (about 9 yrs) and was painful and I think I never be totally through it. The wounds are too deep. It¥s amazing how effective SDA¥s are forgetting that simple thing Christ said to His followers: "I¥m the way, the truth and the life." You can meditate with that sentence as long as you like and always you find new aspects and truths in that. SDA¥s just fuss and shout on the roof tops of apocalypse, beasts, the end of the world, but that¥s only SCARING people to believe "right" and SCARING people to seek salvation. Where¥s Christ¥s love and mercy, the great sacrification He made for us? I think that SDA as a congregation is too deep in its teachings and never as a whole can change. God said that there will be always those who lead people to astray (false shepherds) and there will always be people who follow them. It¥s impossible to a religion to change. Only an individual can change and thanks to God, that truly is possible. That¥s why Christ said to us: Come out. We really are outsiders compared to those who lulls oneself into those delusions and think they are saved ¥cause they are SDA¥s, catholcis, lutherans or whatever. I think people will more and more come out from different religions and they no more join in any congregations ¥cause there is no religious congregation that is the only and the one. To me that¥s the only option. Christ¥s congragation is worldwide and He has children, us. We are His friends, sheeps, His flock. I will be always grateful for His mercy, Tuija | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 254 Registered: 7-2003 |
That was beautifully said, Tuija. | ||
| Thomas1 Registered user Username: Thomas1 Post Number: 107 Registered: 4-2002 |
Sabra, I have been led for the last several months to make the members of SDA who are seriously looking for Jesus, an active part of my prayer ministry. They are so heavy on my heart because my entire family is SDA and I see first hand the damage it causes. Being raised in it, even after 20 years it takes it's toll. In His Grace, and loving it! <>< Thomas | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 18 Registered: 3-2004 |
Tuija said, ìActually, they donít leave much to do to God. To me it was like they pushed God into a corner and said: Wait here, we do all the rest.î This has certainly been the case with the evangelist at my husbandís church. He and his wife came in and took over from what I hear. Saturday afternoon (the day the meetings were to start) my husband got a phone call to come move the church van. I asked about that and it turns out that they have covered up the church sign to hide that itís an Adventist church so they also had to hide the van which said the same. In a way itís good for my husband because I can see that heís in great turmoil. Heís in the midst of that process of shifting between the blinders falling off and recognizing heís been deceived to being dishonest if he continues to promote the doctrines. Looking back, I remember how, for me, it was a gradual process as doctrine after doctrine dropped away. I was in the tough place of being the pastorís assistant teaching a Bible class. At first Iíd just let him teach the ones I didnít believe in any more. Then as I continued to process I just didnít come those weeks of topics where I just couldnít teach around the subject. It wasnít long before I heard the Holy Spirit clearly tell me to get out. Sabra, I love your idea of a 30 day prayer vigil to pray for our Adventist friends, relatives, and pastors. While Iíve been just as angry and upset as the rest of you over the denomination proper and how it had us trapped, I donít hold any personal animosity because I realize that most people are just as deceived as I was and just as unwilling to consider their errorsóuntil the Holy Spirit really starts moving with them. Yesterday while driving home I was listening to a tape by Joyce Meyer about getting into agreement. She was preaching on Matthew 18:19 "Again, I tell you that if two of you on earth agree about anything you ask for, it will be done for you by my Father in heaven.î She pointed out that while we like to pray that for positive change, we have to be cautious about the times we are agreeing with each other for negative things, in this case feeling people wonít change. While I agree that I donít see the denomination as an institution changing for the better, I do see change starting to happen within individuals. Praise GodÖ | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 134 Registered: 12-2003 |
I also pray for Adventists. My prayer is that they will be open to the truth of the gospel and also that the truth about Aventism will become known, both to those inside and to those outside. I have become so aware that many people (including many evangelical pastors) do not understand what a miracle it is when an Adventist finds Jesus and leaves the church. Likewise, many do not understand why an Adventist who believes in Jesus should be encouraged to leave or to further examine his doctrines. My older son has run into this problem among the twentysomething age group at our church. He commented to a friend of his that a certain Adventist young man (who is dating a Christian girl they both know) is not living in the full freedom of Christ as long as he's an Adventist. His friend replied, "You can't say that; you're judging." My son said there's just nothing more he can say; he's discussed this issue many times with this friend, and as long as an Adventist claims to know Jesus and says the Sabbath isn't necessary for salvation and also says he doesn't honor EGW, then he's just a fellow Christian who prefers to go to church on a different day. Unfortunately, this friend of my son's reflects the general attitude present in the college ministry. About a year ago my son became alarmed when a certain Adventist young man began to show up regularly at the Wednesday night college meeting and praise service. The Adventist was outspoken and became quickly involved, always talking about Jesus and accepting the grace of Jesus. He won the confidence of the college pastor and was even given the pupit at a Wednesday service to give a short talk to the students, many of whom were Christians but some of whom were not. Interestingly, this Adventist young man never showed up for church on Sunday and regularly attended an Adventist church in Loma Linda. My son finally buttonholed this young man at a college weekend retreat which they both attended and asked him what his agenda was. He replied, "I've been sent to call the lost sheep, both inside and outside, back into the fold." As he talked, the young man made it clear to my son that he was purposefully attempting to proselytize Christians to become Adventists. My son spoke to the college group pastor and told him this person was proselytizing. The pastor was visibly shocked and disbelieving. He said he had talked to the young man and had picked up nothing of the sort. Further, he had researched SDA beliefs online at the official GC site, and he had satisfied himself that he knew what Adventists believe, and he was certain this young man wasn't pushing any of the questionable doctrines; he was merely on fire for Jesus and looking for ways to share the gospel. Our son finally invited this young man to our home for Sunday lunch. He agreed to come provided he could bring a friend who knew the Bible better than he did. The night before he was to come, he called our son and cancelled, and he refused to set another date. Shortly afterward he quit attending our church's college group. These kinds of incidents, I believe, are quite common wherever there are Adventist communities, especially college communities, and they are part of the reason I pray that the truth of Adventist will become known. Both the members and the larger Christian community need to know the truth--the members so they can embrace the gospel and live in freedom in Christ, and those outside so they will not be deceived and so they will also provide safe, nourishing communities that will help those who leave to grow. I really do believe that more and more people are questioning and leaving; those people need to find healthy churches to attend where they can learn the word of God and where their experiences will be taken seriously and respected, even if they're not fully understood. Praise God for his provisions! Colleen | ||
| Sabra Registered user Username: Sabra Post Number: 56 Registered: 10-2001 |
I pray for them too, but I was thinking more of a 2 or more gathered in agreement to see a miracle! Word in due season, PraiseGod--I love Joyce! If the WWCOG changed, the SDA church can change too. If Rwanda could become a christian nation from the constant prayers of a few believers surely God can work a miracle in the SDA church! The foundation is already being laid, many that are still in the church don't believe in Ellen. If at least just one of you will agree with me to pray everyday for the pastors and the leaders and members to have the veil lifted and receive the gospel. I believe that God will honor His promise that if we ask we will receive. God is not a feeble God that He can't work a miracle! He is mighty in battle! He needs some believers. 30 days? | ||
| Loneviking Registered user Username: Loneviking Post Number: 229 Registered: 7-2000 |
Well, I was up in Redding this week and saw the new 'Kingdom of the Cults', edited by Ravi Zacharias. Big disappointment! First, for information about the church Ravi seems to only consider the statements of the leaders----who lie through their teeth. The critics that he looks too for information are Canright (who he concludes may have been right about some things but much has changed in Adventism) or a couple of critics from the 1950's that I've never heard of before. All of the critics of today are ignored. Ravi also falls into the trap of using the (largely) plagerized writings of EGW to say 'see, this is what the SDA's believe--how could anyone think otherwise'. One glaring example of this selective use was to use Steps to Christ to support the SDA leaders claim that Adventism teaches salvation by grace alone just like everyone else. Ravi completely ignores the large number of statements to the contrary that can be found in the Testimonies. Ravi did mention (and really take to task) another writer whose first name was 'Dennis'--I can't remember the last name. This Dennis wrote a very harsh critique of Adventism and labeled it a cult. This author apparently is not a former SDA. Do any of you know who this author is and anything about his book? I'd like to see about getting a copy of the book. Anyway, the deception of Adventism continues with the help of gullible folks like Ravi. Don't waste your time buying the updated book---Ravi swallowed the lies of the GC hook-line and sinker......... Bill | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 137 Registered: 12-2003 |
Greg Taylor has a new book coming out that I'm really excited about. It tells his story of leaving and includes the Biblical studying he did to settle the doctrinal questions for himself. It's unique in that it describes from the inside the effects of Adventism on one's mind and emotions. He describes the ways Adventists interpret and embrace the doctrines and the ways they're linked to each other in an Adventist's thinking and fears. It's unique in that it doesn't merely describe the unbibilical nature of the doctrines, nor is it "just" a Bible study. The Christian community in general gets confused or deceived by reading the doctrines and not understanding how Adventists understand them. This book shows how Adventism works inside an Adventist, and I'm really excited that we may finally have a book available that will help non-SDAs to "see" the reality we see. The book is called "Discovering the New Covenant", and it's almost ready for press. I'm really thanking God for this book! Colleen | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 257 Registered: 7-2003 |
Bill, I own an older revision of the Kingdom of the cults and have thouroughly read through the appendix on Adventism. I have only browsed through the new edition edited by Ravi, but as far as I can see, it is nearly word for word the same as in previous versions. It looks to me like the newest "update" (at least of this appendix) is still pretty much verbatim what Martin wrote way back when with precious little done to truly update it. This is really too bad. Chris | ||
| Praisegod Registered user Username: Praisegod Post Number: 20 Registered: 3-2004 |
The psychological aspects of leaving Adventism canít be diminished. In fact, looking back Iím now thinking it was much more than mere mental/emotional processing and into the demonic. Call me overdramatic if you wish, but I believe today there is a strong spirit of religion and denominationalism at work in this country. However, just looking at the psychology, right before I walked out the door, I happened upon a chart that was very helpful for me to see what was happening to me. In case it would be helpful to someone, Iím posting a modified version here: INITIAL STAGE 1. doubt--To be undecided or skeptical about; to tend to disbelieve; distrust; to regard as unlikely 2. disappointment--defeat or failure of expectation or hope; a feeling of dissatisfaction that results when your expectations are not realized 3. disillusionment--freeing from false belief or illusions; the condition or fact of being disenchanted MIDDLE STAGE 1. disdain--To regard or treat with haughty contempt; despise 2. distancing--Emotional separateness or reserve; aloofness. FINAL STAGEóPOINT OF NO RETURN 1. disaffection--To cause to lose affection or loyalty; the feeling of being alienated from other people 2. dissolution--Annulment or termination of a formal or legal bond, tie, or contract. This was very freeing to me to recognize that while I was confident in my Bible study and doctrinal research, I still had to go through the grief stages and these stages. Hope it helps someone here who is still somewhere processing through these ìdísî. Will look forward to seeing Greg's book and how it deals with the "big picture" of Adventism. Praise GodÖ | ||
| Chris Registered user Username: Chris Post Number: 258 Registered: 7-2003 |
Praisegod, I don't think you're being at all overly dramatic when you speak of demonic forces. There is no doubt in my mind at all that there is fierce spiritual warfare going on over every single individual that is contemplating leaving a cult or sect for a more Christ-centered, Gospel oriented life. There is no way the enemy is going to let this happen easily. The good news is that he is a defeated foe and cannot stop or change the work the Spirit has done in a person's heart. All the Devil can do is try to frustrate the work, put up obstacles, try to discourage the person, and try to put doubts in their mind. I believe we fight back by spending daily time in prayer and in the Word and by practicing what we have learned during our prayer and study times. Demonic forces can't stand up to the power of a praying Christian who is commited to following God where ever He leads. Chris |
