| Author | Message | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^ I have nothing to boast of in my life, nothing I care to display to the world.^^ Jesus said, "A city that is set upon a hill cannot be hid." | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^What happens to your "testimony" when you fall, as you surely will, seeing as you are still human?^^ What happened to Peter's testimony when after denying his Lord three times with curses and going out and weeping bitterly? What happened to his testimony when, while walking on water at his Lord's invitation, he took his eyes off of Jesus and told his fellow disciples in the boat, "Look at my testimony! I'm walking on water!" Is fear of being seen by others preventing you from following your Lord? | ||
| Max |
^^Your testimony falls also. Because it has been built upon the sand.^^ My testimony has not been built upon the sand. | ||
| Max |
^^The only True Testimony is the righteous- ness of Jesus Christ, extrinsic to us, imputed to all who believe.^^ That is not even testimony. Testimony is obedience. If you will revise your sentence to read as follows, then you will see the truth, Patti: ^^The only true testimony is OBEDIENCE TO the righteousness of Jesus Christ, extrinsic to us, imputed to all who believe.^^ | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^You still have not addressed the fact that in the New Testament, the being filled with the Holy Spirit ALWAYS resulted in that person witnessing to the dead and risen Christ.^^ Since actions speak louder than words, their witness was more effective in the DOING than it was in the claiming. James obedience followed till martyrdom. Paul obediently followed till he was executed in a Roman prison. John obediently followed all during his exile on tiny Patmos isle. Stephen obediently followed till he was stoned to death. If they had restricted their testimony merely to the cold facts of "the dead and risen Christ," then there would have been no "turning of the world upside down." No! Obedient action is what got them into trouble. Because only obedient action was a threat. Obedient action that backed their words! You know, there is some truth in the old saying, "Sticks and stones can break my bones, but words can never harm me." Our obedience, Patti, IS our testimony. We do not testify to it. Our obedience itself is what testifies. Blessings to you always, | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^When the Holy Spirit is poured out upon us, we witness to the worthiness of the Lamb of God. This is the only True Witness.^^ Yes, and what is this witness of which you speak? Is it not our obedience? Max of the Cross | ||
| Lydell |
Geez, if this thing posts three times forgive me! My hubby has made changes to this computer and my message keeps disappearing! Patti, you have said that some Christians seem to think that their witness is "not about what Christ has done, but about what He is going to do." I would change that to "my witness is not only the historical fact about what Christ has done in providing for my salvation, but about what He is doing on a daily ongoing basis." Is their anything greater than being saved to the uttermost? No. And I am thrilled to share the story of Christ's sacrifice for us on the cross! But that is only the day one experience. I'm finding that His sacrifice provided for far more than just my salvation. Yes He gave to give me eternal life, but He also gives me abundant life now. I'm thankful for that free gift of salvation. But there are other things in that gift box! Like joy, peace, a positive self-image, a sound mind, equipping for service, and so much more! Yes, I'll gladly tell the gospel story. But I am also thrilled to tell of how the Lord freed me from a dreadful fear of the dark a few years back. I'm thankful and will joyfully tell of how he freed me from a weeks long attack of tormenting thoughts. I am so happy that a couple of days ago, while in prayer for someone I was suddenly impressed with something to say to her that turned her eyes off her troubles by giving her assurance that the Lord had, in fact, heard her silent prayer of frustration. Is any of that because of some marvelous goodness on my part? Heavens no! It is ALL because of His completed sacrifice while at the cross. But I had never known before that these things were there as well as my salvation. And I am thrilled to find it out! And I will gladly share that my Jesus is not just someone who made a historic sacrifice back there somewhere. He is also my living, breathing, constant companion, friend, counselor, healer, and so very very much more! And I'm excited about discovering what else is in the box. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Lydell, Great to have you back too!;-)) | ||
| Patti |
Hi, Lydell! You wrote: "But I had never known before that these things were there as well as my salvation. And I am thrilled to find it out!" I understand and concur completely! However, that is not your "witness." As I have heard you say many times, your witness is to the doing and dying of Jesus Christ alone. The Gospel alone can produce the fruit of joy and confidence. No matter how much one tells of his utter joy, the only thing that inspires such joy is the hearing and believing of the Gospel. Do you understand what I am saying? You can tell me all day long how joyful you are, but that has no personal significance to me. I can be happy for you, I can be envious of you, I can disbelieve you, but your statements of joy will not cause me to be joyful. Only the good news of the grace of Jesus Christ will instill that joy and wipe out that fear that we had as workaholics. Additionally, you are not directing our attention to your regenerated character. Our witness is never of our own changed characters, but of the One single perfect obedience by which the ungodly are justified. Good to hear from you. I hope you and David are well. Grace and peace, Patti | ||
| Patti |
Max wrote: Yes, and what is this witness of which you speak? Is it not our obedience? 1000 TIMES, NO!!!!!!! NEVER!!!!!! It is the Obedience of the One Paul speaks of in Romans, by which those who believe are accounted righteous before God. It is nothing LESS than JESUS' PERFECT OBEDIENCE AND FULFILLMENT OF ALL OF THE LAW IN OUR BEHALF. We had no hand in it; we will have no hand in it. It is stored up in heaven, waiting for us until the day that we will be changed. 1 Peter 1:3 All honor to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, for it is by his boundless mercy that God has given us the privilege of being born again. Now we live with a wonderful expectation because Jesus Christ rose again from the dead.} 1:4 For God has reserved a priceless inheritance for his children. It is kept in heaven for you, pure and undefiled, beyond the reach of change and decay. 1:5 And God, in his mighty power, will protect you until you receive this salvation, because you are trusting him. It will be revealed on the last day for all to see. | ||
| Max |
Patti, ^^Our witness is never of our own changed characters, but of the One single perfect obedience by which the ungodly are justified.^^ Our changed characters ARE our witness. | ||
| Max |
Patti, In your ^^1000 TIMES, NO!!!!!!! NEVER!!!!!!^^ post you have taken 1 Peter 1:3-5 out of its context. Peter cannot be used to prove that our obedience is not our witness to God. For nowhere does he say anything remotely like that. On the contrary, he says exactly the opposite: 1 Peter 2:11-12 NIV: "Dear friends, I urge you, as aliens and strangers in the world, to abstain from sinful desires, which war against your soul. Live such good lives among the pagans that, though they accuse of doing wrong, they may SEE YOUR GOOD DEEDS AND GLORIFY GOD on the day he visits us." Blessings, Max of the Cross | ||
| Denisegilmore |
As I sit here and chuckle Max because I hadn't read this post of yours but posted this same Scripture of 1 Peter 2:12, just a few minutes ago, on another thread. Amazing. God Bless you brother Max, Dtb, your sister | ||
| Lydell |
Patti, you said:"No matter how much one tells of his utter joy, the only thing that inspires such joy is the hearing and believing of the Gospel." I can't agree there Patti. My husband tells me that when he was saved it was not because someone had told him that he was a sinner, it wasn't from hearing and grabbing hold of the gospel message. It was because he had heard the verse, "I came that they might have life, and have it more abundantly." All he knew was that his life was a mess and he was miserable. He wanted life! And his prayer was "God, I've really made a mess of my life. If you are real, if you really mean you can give me a real life, then I want it." You said: "Our witness is never of our own changed characters, but of the One single perfect obedience by which the ungodly are justified." I disagree. David had been a gloomy pessimist. Immediately upon saying the last words of his prayer, he tells me that it was as if a switch went off in his head. He instantly changed from pessimism to a joyously laughing optimism. He didn't have a clue at the moment of conversion that he was a "sinner". That revelation only came after he had spent time with the indwelling Holy Spirit teacher. It was the Holy Spirit later who revealed to him why he had been so miserable before. It was only over time that he came to understand the gospel message. People who had known him before came to him and asked, "okay, what's happened to you? You're not the same person." His witness was that he had found a real friend in Christ. He now had a living relationship. And that relationship was the cause of his change. There are plenty who are like David. They don't have a clue what sin is, and couldn't care less. But what grabs their attention is that they see demonstrated before them in someone that the person has changed, that someone else has joy and meaning in their life, and they want it. The revelation of the fact of their being a "sinner" only comes some time after finding out about the God of love who has a plan for meaning and purpose for them. People really aren't interested in hearing our opionion on their status of "sinner" until they see demonstrated that there is something different about us. The first see that there is a reality there, a visual demonstration of the fact that what we tell them later is truth. They only get a glimmer of the gospel being truth because they have seen this demonstration. Without the demonstration, the words usually are meaningless to them. I believe that it is the same reason why God worked thru signs and wonders in the book of Acts. People very often have to see that there is something to listen to before they are actually willing to hear the gospel. | ||
| Maryann |
Hi Lydell, I'm sorry to bore you or other's. I just have to re-post from the other day in this line about my experience. The people that were pushing the "get saved" thing were also pushing, "look as us, our Church, our families etc. along with the pointing to the gospel and Christ. It was a near copy of the SDA background I came from with the exception of Sabbath keeping and a few other doctrines that are typical to Evangelicals. Yet through it all, I still was pounded with security of my salvation and that my actions would not keep out of heaven. I despised looking at the lifestyles of the majority of the people in that Church. They were sooooo, sooooo legalistic. The guys at work that influenced me so greatly never pushed "look at us, look at our Church, look at our families. They always pointed me to Christ and the cross. I was the one that asked them about their lives. I was the one that said that they were different. I was the one that, because of their christlike example, decided to take another look at Christianity! And that is really something to praise God about!!!;-)) Here's the other days post: "By Maryann on Wednesday, January 17, 2001 - 09:35 am: Hi All, Would this be a sound Biblical statement?: Our charater, our changed life, the fruits of the Spirit that the Spirit demonstrates though us in our obedience to the promptings of the Spirit; demonstrate to those around us, CREDENCE to the fact that our Savior provided for us, SALVATION BY GRACE ALONE. I remember when I first, "got saved." (About 1995) The "sinner's prayer" was pushed on me for several hours by several ladies before I finally gave in to THEIR pressure. It was a shallow, selfish, to benifit me "get saved" prayer proceedure. From the way that salvation by grace was presented to me by THESE PEOPLE, it seemed to me a sure fire way to "let God" save me, and me continue on in my same ugly life style. Armed with my "new" salvation under arm, I went to work and bragged about how easy and cool it was to "get saved!!" I mentioned it to a few of my now, "unsaved buddies" and suggested that they too should try it. After several of my buddies told me that Christians didn't act like I was acting, I shut my mouth and was very happy to go to another job and forget the whole "saved" thing. During this time, I was witnessed to by some wonderful Christian guys at work. They pointed to Christ as their sole salvation and gave me verses and so on. I asked them about their lives and how long they had been Christians. One guy, Kenny, was particularly interesting to me as the life he described a few years earlier was very similar to mine. Kenny radiated JOY. He radiated Christ with out even opening his mouth. So did a guy named Ralph and many others. The lives that Kenny and Ralph lived and the loving and non-critical witness they gave to me when I asked them about Christ and what he did for them both in salvation and in their personal live was the SEED that was planted in my heart!! PRAISE GOD FOR THE JOY AND CHRISTLIKENESS THAT RADIATED FROM KENNY AND RALPH'S LIVES. I am sooooooooooo ashamed of the horrible witness I gave to those at work that I told I was saved!!!!;,,,,-(( When I was only using "saved" as a way to continue to live an UN-CHRISTLIKE lifestyle!!!! Since the seeds that Kenny and Ralph got watered over the next few years and various incidents have happened, I was "saved" in about 1998. It was not like the first time I prayed the sinner's prayed from my head while being pushed into it, it was quietly, alone and from my heart. Sure, I have my ups and downs (and I'm down right now) as I'm sure most of you do. The difference now is that I have a peace that I never had before and the burning desire to serve Christ and share with as many as possible, the wonderful news of SALVATION BY GRACE ALONE! Again, praise God for the witness of Kenny and Ralph and the "credence" their actions gave to the fact that they had given their lives wholly and completely over to Christ. Emotionally flat from 1 week of being with one of my best friends that believes and practices "continued" justification to a "T" by his deeds......Maryann" Now, with the witness of David and my own testimony of how another persons christlike life affected me, how anyone could possibly say that our lives are not, at times, the "first line of witness" that some will be exposed to, I'LL NEVER KNOW. I don't need to put the verses up! They are in abundance in above post's. Then one asked, "what if you slip or are a "selfish" Christian that is not willing to share your faith?" I would say you are NOT a good witness to Christ and the salvation He has provided to each one of us, for the harder than working requirement, just accepting it by faith alone. Then, to my understanding of verses like 1 Cor.3:12-15 and 1 Cor. 22-27, you are judged, NOT regarding your salvation, but for the reward that Christ has those that are faithful to Him in their witness to and for Him. As a little note here. My understanding is that Salvation is a FREE GIFT for those that accept it and even a quick trip to a dictionary will tell you that a reward is something earned. So when the Bible is speaking of "rewards" you MUST automaticly KNOW that is is totally and absolutely UNRELATED to Salvation, a FREE GIFT. Kelly, if you read this, please don't get discouraged if it was confusing!;-)) Lydell, Patti, Rayna, Max (ladies first;-), if y'all don't agree, PLEASE, let's discuss it. IBC....:):) | ||
| Denisegilmore |
"By Maryann on Wednesday, January 17, 2001 - 09:35 am: Hi All, Would this be a sound Biblical statement?: Our charater, our changed life, the fruits of the Spirit that the Spirit demonstrates though us in our obedience to the promptings of the Spirit; demonstrate to those around us, CREDENCE to the fact that our Savior provided for us, SALVATION BY GRACE ALONE. Hello Maryann, I found the post that you wanted me to comment on and first I need to say, that if this statement were applied to 'Known Christians', in other words, if we knew first that they were Christians, I would answer that the statement has some credence. However, I know many athiests, muslims, budhists that show these same qualities. Would I look at them and automatically think, hey these people are Christians. Yes, I probably would. Does it make it so? No. I have had more people who will not claim Christianity, show me more of a witness, if I were to look at the outward appearance and characters that is what we term 'Christian', than Christians. But the fact remains that the statement you are asking about as being Biblical could, in my opinion, only apply to known Christians. And even then, as Christians, we don't always show any of these traits or fruits of the spirit for quite a while in our walk. In fact, I know many Christians that I do know for a fact, believe in Jesus Christ and that He died and was resurrected, that don't show these qualities. The first one being myself. I can say that there are days, when I show these qualities but I thank God for doing that through me, as it sure wasn't planned by me. As to the 'Character' part of that statement, it is too reminiscent of SDAs and their belief that their CHARACTERS must be perfected in order to make heaven. I disagree. I do believe that in our walk with the Lord, we are changed as I can also attest to that, me being the first case to mention. But do I represent what people would consider a "Christian?" Not according to other Christians. Now to other folks, I might look like and act like a Christian in their eyes as they do come to my door and ask me questions. So, I continue to walk with our Lord and I listen to the Holy Spirit the best way I know how and somewhere, down the road, perhaps, there will be some more changes that will give other Christians the knowledge that I too, am a Christian. In the meanwhile, I practice love when I know how and how I know how. This is the best I can do. I pray for guidance and trust in my God, my Lord Jesus Christ to be the finisher of my faith. He started it, so He will finish it too. You asked me for an opinion and now you have it. I probably should be wearing the hard hat now. :) God Bless you, Denise | ||
| Max |
Denise, QUESTION: ^^Would this be a sound Biblical statement?: Our charater, our changed life, the fruits of the Spirit that the Spirit demonstrates though us in our obedience to the promptings of the Spirit; demonstrate to those around us, CREDENCE to the fact that our Savior provided for us, SALVATION BY GRACE ALONE.^^ ANSWER: Yes. | ||
| Denisegilmore |
Well now Max, There are many Christians that think I'm an apostate, heretic and even the anitchrist. So in view of that, even on days where those traits show in me, they don't see a Christian. They still see an apostate (according to their idea of Christianity). I will say that it is the NON Christians that are the first to notice any changes in or fruits of the spirit in me. These NON Christians are people like my own family or old friends. So, I guess it depends on who is looking at us and when. I cannot say a 'yes' to that statement and leave it at that. If it is 'Credence' that we are talking about, there's far too many Christians that do NOT believe that I believe. And no matter how many times I show good deeds and love to them, they are still looking at me through their doctrines (speaking of egw). As long as they view me through the scope of egw's ideas, I do not give 'credence' whatsoever to salvation by Grace alone. The first ones to see any change in me are NOT Christians. Infact this has been my trial in the Churches. They tell me that I'm a BAD witness! That sure didn't help uphold me, let me say that. In fact, it discouraged me beyond anyone's knowing. And I still have to say that it may be a Biblical statement but many people who are NOT Christian, show these same traits. Like I said earlier, there are more people that show these traits, who are NOT Christian, than the supposed Christians I know. This has been my experience. So, what do I do, say that these non Christians are Christian afterall, on the basis that they show me these traits and what I would see as fruits of the Spirit? And even if they say they are budhist, athiest etc.? Do I look at them and think anyway, well, they can claim budhism or muslim all they want but I see their fruits and I see other good things that apply to the Christian, so they are Christians without knowing it yet. ?? So after coming to that conclusion in my own mind, I start inviting them to Church, talking about Jesus Christ and hanging out with them? I say no we cannot judge that statement by itself. It would be dependant on who it applies to. The statement in itself is a good one but I'm having difficulty just leaving a 'yes' answer, as you can see. Does that help you understand any better what I'm trying to say here? I hope so, because it is very hard to put into words. God Bless you always, DtB That is why I answer the way I do. | ||
| Max |
Denise, You're going to have to understand that I have your best interest at heart when I say this, since you may not want to hear it. But the Holy Spirit transforms egos too. He heals unhealthy egos. It is the unhealthy ego that says, I'm going to give credence to those hypocrites -- those pharisees and saducees and essenes and zealots who're judging me. Telling me "I'm an apostate, heretic and even the anitchrist." It is the unhealthy ego that says, "They are still looking at me through their doctrines (speaking of egw)." People who are viewing you "through the scope of EGW's ideas," who refuse to "give 'credence' whatsoever to salvation by Grace alone" are being manipulated by Satan to see you as prey. Driven, probably unconsciously, by the "law of the jungle," the "law of tooth and claw," Satan's law of hate, they see you as weak, as "easy meat," and attack like savages. They're probably having a very difficult time seeing you standing your ground, refusing to run, dressed in the whole armor of God and brandishing the sword of truth. You've been transformed, remember? But your transformation will never be complete this side of the Second Coming of Christ. But you still may be hampered by an ego that needs Christ's healing. Hey, it's okay to have an unhealthy ego, just as it's okay to have asthma or diabetes. But Christ is nothing if he is not Healer. It's very hard not to give them power they don't deserve. But you must remember that you have been saved from before the foundations of the earth were laid, that the Creator made you IN ORDER TO SAVE YOU. You have been bought with a price. You have been redeemed from slavery. Your feet have been set in heavenly places. You CANNOT lose your salvation. You are in heaven HERE AND NOW. You don't need to judge the eternal destinies of these people. One or another of them may be the hater and murderer Saul of Tarsus who will someday become Paul the Apostle. Let the Holy Spirit convict them and judge their fate. But you do need to pay attention to Christ's counsel. He said: * Be wise as snakes and harmless as doves. * Give not that which is holy unto dogs. * Cast not thy pearls before razorbacks, lest they trample the holy underfoot and turn again and tear into you with their tusks. * If they will not hear thee in one place, shake the dust out of your sandals and move on to the next. And all the while you -- from the vantage point of being justified and perfect and sinless in Christ -- are obeying Him and following His New Covenant Commandments, he is healing your ego. In Christ you will become stronger and stronger, though you may not even know your new strength, because you keep aware that your own strength will never even come close to that of your Lord and Master Jesus Christ. Thus your ego IS being healed. And as it is healed more and more and more, these evil judgments of others will affect you less and less and less. It's not what they think of you anyway; it's what Christ thinks of you. Denise, you are already one of Christ's miraculous healings. Keep remembering what Jesus told such SDA pharisees and saducees and essenes and zealots of his day: "You do not believe. The miracles [such as Denise] I do in my Father's name speak for me, but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. My sheep [such as Denise] listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one can snatch them out of my hand. I and the Father are one." John 10:26-30 Blessings upon your head always, MC | ||
| Max |
Denise, ^^Do I look at them and think anyway, well, they can claim Buddhism or Muslim all they want, but I see their fruits and I see other good things that apply to the Christian. So they are Christians without knowing it yet?^^ The job of being Good Shepherd is too big for you. Jesus is not your example in all things. You are not the Good Shepherd. Let Him be the Good Shepherd. You are the His sheep. Be content with that. For there are green pastures and lucid brooks and other sheep to rub fleeces with. Jesus says, ^^"I am the good shepherd; I know my sheep and my sheep know me--just as the Father knows me and I know the Father--and I lay down my life for the sheep. I have other sheep that are not of this sheep pen. I must bring them also. They too will listen to my voice, and there shall be one flock and one shepherd.^^ John 10:14-16 NIV MC |
