| Author |
Message |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 347
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, June 24, 2004 - 6:00 pm: |     |
I tell ya what, Speakeasy. I will give you an OT text paired with every NT text I give you. This will allow you to compare and contrast and see if the Jesus presented in the NT is the YHVH of the OT. I'll just post a few a day so these posts don't become too long.
Who is all powerful? 1 Chron. 29:11, Phil 3:20-21
Who is present everywhere? Prov. 15:3, Matt 12:8
Who is the great "I AM"? Exodus 3:14, John 8:58
Who is the only creator? Isaiah 44:24, John 1:3
Who is the only savior? Isaiah 43:11, Isa 45:21, Acts 4:12
More later....... |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 348
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 4:08 pm: | |
A few more texts for today:
Who will judge mankind? Isaiah 3:13,14, 2 Cor. 5:10
Who will judge between the sheep and the goats? Ezekiel 34:17, Matthew 25:31-33
Who sent the prophets? Jeremiah 7:25, Matthew 23:34
Who is coming in glory? Isaiah 40:5, Matthew 24:30
Who is our Father? Isaiah 63:16, Isaiah 9:6
More to come........... |
Speakeasy
Registered user
Username: Speakeasy
Post Number: 98
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 25, 2004 - 7:09 pm: | |
Chris can you give me some verses from the Tenak. That God said he himself would be the Messiah. And please keep it with the tenak. Some of the verses do not match up. Or maybe I just don't see the connection yet.
speakeasy |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 349
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 8:27 am: | |
Speakeasy, God promised in the OT that He would send a Messiah. That Messiah is then fully revealed in the NT as God in the flesh. In the OT this was a mystery(i.e. not fully revealed). In the NT, God was fully revealed in the person of Jesus Christ. This was a process of progressive revelation. There certainly are hints in the OT though. I would refer you to the last text I listed, Isaiah 9:6. Isaiah here clearly indicates the Coming One will be the mighty God. Speakeasy, I plead with you, do not make the mistake that the Jewish leaders of Jesus' time did. They knew the Law and the prophets well. Then Jesus came and demonstrated through His miracles, His life, His death, and especially through His resurrection that He was the Messiah that the Law and the Prophets had foretold and that He was fully divine. The Jewish leaders chose to reject this revelation, cling to their traditions, and die in their sins. Christ's death profited them nothing becasue they chose to reject the truth of who He really was. Instead of their Saviour, Christ became a stumbling block to them. It's also worth contemplating that only God can forgive sins. If Jesus is not God, then we are still dead in our sins and have no hope. Some more texts are below:
Who is the first and the last? Isaiah 44:6, Revelation 1:17
Who is the Rock of salvation? 2 Samuel 22:32, 1 Cor. 10:4
Who is the stone of stumbling? Isaiah 8:13-15, 1 Peter 2:8
"One crying in the wilderness" came to prepare a way for whom? Isaiah 8:13-15, 1 Peter 2:8
Who is eternal? Genesis 21:33, Micah 5:2
I will continue posting scripture tomorrow...... |
Barbsigirl
Registered user
Username: Barbsigirl
Post Number: 17
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 12:36 pm: | |
Speakeasy,
I can identify with your struggle over whether or not you are saved. I have spent my entire life worrying about that subject. I used to envy the people who were so confident about their salvation. I felt as an Adventist that I had "too much knowledge" (EGW knowledge that is). I am learning to let go of her little by little, but it is hard.
But I also struggle with how to interpret the Bible as it applies to us. When I started attending a Baptist Sunday School, they told me that all of Matthew was applicable only to the Jews, and then they would say tattoos were evil because of a text in Leviticus. Now I don't like tattoos personally, but that shouldn't apply to NT Christians, should it? I guess it just is confusing. The preacher sometimes refers to the Ten Commandments to inspire people to pay tithe. And then they say we are free from the law. So I have trouble with all of this interpretation too.
I will tell you that I have never read anything more helpful to me in understanding God and Christianity than C.S. Lewis's "Mere Christianity". I already talked about it in another post, but it really made it easier to understand things like the Trinity and good and evil, etc. and I feel more at peace with those subjects.
And witnessing is very difficult when you don't have assurance yourself. Believe me, I know. As an Adventist, my only mission was to try to get someone to understand why the Sabbath was important to salvation. I didn't know how to talk about Jesus. I know there are some adventists who are becoming more evangelical but that was my training and upbringing.
If I may ask, what is your struggle about in being a Christian, generally? Is it giving things up? Or maybe you don't have support of friends who are Christians around you and you feel alone? I also struggle, and half the time I don't feel like I am a Christian in my actions. Then I try to do better, ask forgiveness, etc. It seems like I think I have to feel like I am pretty good in order to be saved. (We all know that is not the way it is)But those feelings keep coming around.
Keep looking to Jesus!
Barb |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 335
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 7:56 pm: | |
Chris, I love the texts you've been posting. I agree with your appeal to Speakeasy not to make the same mistake the Jews of Jesus' day made.
The essence of the problem, Speakeasy, is surrender. If you're not sure what's true, you must be willing to give up everything you thought you knew, ask God to reveal truth to you, then be open to His leading and teaching. You can't keep insisting that you get the proof from the places you want. If the New Testament is fully God's word to us, as fully as the Old testament, then we can't insist on getting all our "proof" from the OT.
The only way you can know whether or not Jesus is God, the promised Messiah, the I AM, is to read the New Testament and compare Jesus' claims and deeds to the prophecies and to the law. You have to use both. One is not more sacred or accurate than the other. The New Testament, however, has more facts. It records the life of Jesus and the gospel, two things that were only foreshadowed in the Old Testament.
Praise God for his faithfulness to us, even in our confusion!
Colleen |
Speakeasy
Registered user
Username: Speakeasy
Post Number: 101
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 8:54 pm: | |
Chris I can not reply or discuss on an open forum what you have posted on the verses that you have given. Because if I do I will be attacking what the christian has been taught from day one and is also a core teaching that will be directly taking down what a christian builds for there beliefe.
This is something I can not do. I have done this in the past and this is what gets people telling me I am not saved or can not be saved. I fear that I will have to part ways. I also fear I maybe NOT worshiping the same God as you. I am not sure of that yet but... So at this time I will have to yield to you on this topic. Just maybe at a later date. I May want to rejoin in the forum down the road. And not burn my bridges like I have at churchs that I have been asked to leave and worship somewere else. I am like an old fox. I no what NOT to do and it only takes me a few times to know when I need to shut up and move on. I will be honest with you. I am struggling with the whole God thing.
I do want to thank you for your time and input. |
Speakeasy
Registered user
Username: Speakeasy
Post Number: 103
Registered: 9-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 26, 2004 - 9:11 pm: | |
I also forgot to say THANKS for all of your kindness the last week or so. Keep up the good work and Collenn and the rest of the gang. Thanks as well! I can tell ALL of you are rooted in the faith. And this is rare. VERY RARE!
Thanks
speakeasy
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Lydell
Registered user
Username: Lydell
Post Number: 614
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 12:44 pm: | |
Speakeasy, being rooted in faith is NOT a rare thing! There are millions of Christians in this world who are rooted in their faith.
That faith comes from getting to know the loving person God is. Only then will you be able to balance out what you already know about God as judge. He is both, equally! He has an absolute passion for you!
Sheep will only follow the shepherd they know they can trust. Spend time getting to know the Shepherd. We are told that Jesus is the perfect representation of who God is. So go to the gospels and read those stories again. This time don't look at what you can find about law or commandments or seek info on what you need to do. Look instead at what you see about the PERSON of Jesus....how did He relate to the people. What was He like? |
Lydell
Registered user
Username: Lydell
Post Number: 615
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 12:50 pm: | |
And Speakeasy, you really need to notice something precious in the story of the prodigal son. The scriptures say that "as soon as the son BEGAN to turn toward home".....how long does it take to "begin" to turn and move in another direction physically?
"as soon as the son began to turn toward home" the Father (remember this is a picture of the heavenly Father!) began to run toward the son. He didn't stand there and wait for the son to get all the way back, take a bath, put on new clothes, and comb his hair before he accepted Him. Instead, he ran to the son, threw His arms around him, and kissed him. God is not just a law giver. He is also the Father that runs to embrace his dirty smelly willfully messed up child and kisses YOU! |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 350
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, June 27, 2004 - 4:48 pm: | |
Speakeasy, I wish you well and pray that the Holy Spirit will lead you on your journey and reveal the Father to you through the person of our Lord, God and saviour, Jesus Christ.
ěHe [Jesus Christ of Nazareth] is 'the stone you builders rejected, which has become the capstone,' Salvation is found in no one else, for there is no other name under heaven given to men by which we must be saved." Acts 4:11,12
For those that would like some more of these OT/NT comparison texts, I will continue posting here.
Who is the fountain of living waters? Jeremiah 17:13, John 4:10-14.
Who resurects the dead? Acts 26:8, John 6:40
Who gives rewards to man? Isaiah 40:10, Matt 16:27
Who has all authority and power? 1 Chron. 29:11, Matt 28:18
Who gives power and authority to man? Psalms 68:35, Luke 9:1
I will continue when I return from vacation in Chicago at the end of the week. Have a great week!
Chris |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 351
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, July 05, 2004 - 6:50 pm: | |
Well, I'm back from Chicago and was thinking about this thread while away. It struck me that for Jesus to be able to completely fulfill the Sabbath, to become the reality of what the shadow only pointed to, and to become the true Sabbath rest for believers, He would have had to transend the Sabbath Himself. He would have to be above the Sabbath, greater than the Sabbath, have authority over the Sabbath. In short He would have to be equal to the eternal God that commanded the Israelites to keep the Sabbath. This fits well with what I'm trying to demonstrate in this thread. If Jesus has all the attributes of the eteranal God, then He is in fact God, YHVH Himself. So I'll start up again there:
Who is Lord of the Sabbath? Gen. 2:3, Matt 12:8
Who is all knowing? 1 John 3:20, Col. 2:2-3
Who resurrected Jesus? Acts 4:10, John 10:17-18
Who forgives sin? 2 Chron. 7:14, Matt 28:18
Who sent the Holy Spirit? John 14:16, John 16:7
Speakeasy, I hope you are still out there reading. As I see it, there are really only two logical possibilities based on the evidence at hand:
A) Jesus was a liar or crazy or both and was not the Messiah. If this is the case then we need go no further. However, there seems to be no evidence to support this view.
B) Jesus truly is the Messiah and the fulfillment of the law and the prophets. If this is true then we can trust the claims He made for Himself and the works that He did that proved not only that He was the Messiah, but also that He was equal to YHVH. Since we know there is only one God and Jesus is equal to YHVH, then Jesus must be YHVH God.
I know some would posit a third option making Jesus some sort of lesser deity, but then we would effectively have two Gods (something no Christian would accept). Others might say that He is not devine at all, but then that doesn't square with the scripture, His works, or His claims for Himself. We're really left with one of the two possibilities above. It is my sincere prayer that the Holy Spirit will convict all that what the scripture has to say about Jesus is trustworthy. More scripture to follow....
Chris
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Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 356
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 8:39 pm: | |
Who has the greatest name? Neh. 9:5, Phil. 2:9
Whom are we to worship? Exod. 34:14, Rev. 5:12-13
Who is the good Shepherd? Gen. 48:15, John 10:14
Who searches for the lost sheep of Israel? Eze. 34:11, Matt. 15:24
Who is "Lord of Lords?" Deut. 10:17, Rev. 17:14
To whom shall every knee bow? Isa. 45:22-23, Phil. 2:10
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Cindy
Registered user
Username: Cindy
Post Number: 590
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 06, 2004 - 8:59 pm: | |
Thanks, Chris, for all the Old & New testaments' comparisons on who Jesus really is!
grace always,
cindy |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 368
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 07, 2004 - 11:14 am: | |
Chris, these comparisons are wonderful!
Colleen |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 358
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 3:01 pm: | |
Thanks for the encouragement Cindy and Colleen. A few more:
Who is the righteous branch of David? Jeremiah 23:5-6, Jeremiah 33:15
Who alone is Holy? 1 Sam 2:2, Acts 3:14
Whose blood cleanses us? Acts 20:28, 1 John 1:7
The world was created for whom? Prov. 16:4, Col. 1:16
Who is above all? Nehemiah 9:6, Romans 9:5
Who is forever the same? Psalms 102:24-27, Heb. 1:8-12
Chris |
Freeatlast
Registered user
Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 191
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 3:31 pm: | |
Chris, can you give the NT reference for the OT verse in Jeremiah referring to the righteous brand of David again? Thanks! |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 359
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 4:39 pm: | |
There's no NT text for this particular one. The first text clearly states that the LORD (YHVH in Hebrew) is the righteous branch of David. The second text is regarded by Jews and Christians alike to be messianic in it's context. It says that the coming Messiah is the the righteouss Branch of David. Therefore the Messiah is YHVH.
5 "Behold, the days are coming," declares the LORD,
"When I will raise up for David a righteous Branch;
And He will reign as king and act wisely
And do justice and righteousness in the land.
6 "In His days Judah will be saved,
And Israel will dwell securely;
And this is His name by which He will be called,
'The LORD our righteousness.'
Jer 23:5-6 (NASB)
15 'In those days and at that time I will cause a righteous Branch of David to spring forth; and He shall execute justice and righteousness on the earth.
Jer 33:15 (NASB)
Chris
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Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 381
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 9:05 pm: | |
I notice you use YHVH...I always heard it was YHWH. Is there a difference? |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 363
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, July 09, 2004 - 10:05 pm: | |
No difference, just a different English transliteration (depends on the lexicon). I've seen it as YHVH or YHWH as well as with vowels added to make it Jehovah, Yehowah, or Yahweh. However, no one really knows how it was pronounced.
Chris |
Freeatlast
Registered user
Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 192
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 10, 2004 - 8:35 am: | |
Now I see, thanks Chris! |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 368
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 13, 2004 - 4:28 pm: | |
I have some more!
Who is our light? Psalms 27:1, John 8:12
Who is the way or path? Psalms 16:11, John 14:6
Who gives us rest? Exodus 33:14, Matt. 11:28
Who gives eternal life? Prov. 19:23, John 3:36
We are the bride of whom? Isaiah 54:5, 2 Cor. 11:2
Who tests the heart and mind? Jer. 17:10, rev. 2:23
Chris |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 370
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 21, 2004 - 6:56 pm: | |
I've never really finished off this thread, so let me end it by listing several other texts stating that Jesus is God. The texts in the post above show that Jesus has all the same attributes and powers of YHWH, the eternal God. The following test are even more direct is showing the full deity of Jesus Christ. I truly hope this thread has been helpful to any that have questioned what the Bible teaches about this subject, but remember, this is only a very partial listing of texts. There are many more places where Jesus is affirmed as the eternal God in various ways. It suprises me to no end that early SDAs denied this clear Biblical truth taught in so many places. Blessings and praise to Lord and God, Jesus Christ.
"BEHOLD, THE VIRGIN SHALL BE WITH CHILD, AND SHALL BEAR A SON, AND THEY SHALL CALL HIS NAME IMMANUEL," which translated means, "GOD WITH US."
Matt 1:23 (NASB)
Fear gripped them all, and they began glorifying God, saying, "A great prophet has arisen among us!" and, "God has visited His people!"
Luke 7:16 (NASB)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
John 1:1 (NASB)
No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
John 1:18 (NASB)
For this reason therefore the Jews were seeking all the more to kill Him, because He not only was breaking the Sabbath, but also was calling God His own Father, making Himself equal with God.
John 5:18 (NASB)
"I and the Father are one."
John 10:30 (NASB)
The Jews answered Him, "For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God."
John 10:33 (NASB)
"You call Me Teacher and Lord; and you are right, for so I am.
John 13:13 (NASB)
Jesus said* to him, "Have I been so long, with you, and yet you have not come to know Me, Philip? He who has seen Me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?
John 14:9 (NASB)
"Now, Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.
John 17:5 (NASB)
Thomas answered and said to Him, "My Lord and my God!"
John 20:28 (NASB)
And even if our gospel is veiled, it is veiled to those who are perishing,
4 in whose case the god of this world has blinded the minds of the unbelieving so that they might not see the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God.
2 Cor 4:3-4 (NASB)
Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus,
6 who, although He existed in the form of God, did not regard equality with God a thing to be grasped,
7 but emptied Himself, taking the form of a bond-servant, and being made in the likeness of men.
Phil 2:5-7 (NASB)
For in Him all the fullness of Deity dwells in bodily form,
Col 2:9 (NASB)
And without controversy great is the mystery of godliness: God was manifested in the flesh, Justified in the Spirit, Seen by angels, Preached among the Gentiles, Believed on in the world, Received up in glory.
1 Tim 3:16 (NKJV)
that you keep this commandment without spot, blameless until our Lord Jesus Christ's appearing,
15 which He will manifest in His own time, He who is the blessed and only Potentate, the King of kings and Lord of lords,
1 Tim 6:14-15 (NKJV)
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways,
2 in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world.
3 And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,
Heb 1:1-3 (NASB)
But of the Son He says, "YOUR THRONE, O GOD, IS FOREVER AND EVER, AND THE RIGHTEOUS SCEPTER IS THE SCEPTER OF HIS KINGDOM.
Heb 1:8 (NASB)
looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
Titus 2:13 (NASB)
Simon Peter, a bond-servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ:
2 Peter 1:1 (NASB)
And on His robe and on His thigh He has a name written, "KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS."
Rev 19:16 (NASB)
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