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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 476
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 28, 2004 - 11:13 am: |     |
Busymom, I will pray for your husband and also for you as you interact with him.
Colleen |
Busymom
Registered user
Username: Busymom
Post Number: 24
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 7:04 pm: | |
We started the classes. The lesson we are currently studying deals with God's love. How do you reconcile in your mind, the God that we read about in the Old Testament, with the New Testament. Jesus did not kill anyone and showed love his entire life. There are multiple killings in the Old testament. Any suggestions? |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 561
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 9:27 pm: | |
Busymom, God's justice and mercy are both eternal attributes of our eternal Sovereign. In the Old Testament, God's intention for Israel was that they would inhabit Canaan, and He would drive out their pagan enemies as Israel obeyed and honored Him.
Part of God's plan was to establish Israel as His people, pure and holy and unmixed with the demonic pagans of the land. Their calling and instructions were clear, and they were to keep themselves separate from them.
Romans 1 describes the condition of people before God gave the law to Israel. They had suppressed the knowledge of God by their wickedness, and His wrath was poured out on them (and still is poured out on the wicked) by His giving them over to the perversions of their lusts and sinful desires. Romans 1:18-20 is clear that the knowledge of God, His invisible qualities and divine nature, were seen in all that was made, but people suppressed that knowledge. The text says that the knowledge of God was available to all, so that all men are without excuse.
They chose, however, to indulge themselves instead of honoring God--with the exception of a few such as Job and Abraham.
God revealed himself to Abraham and began constructing a group of people that would know Him personally and would be able to honor Him and tell others about the sovereign Lord. God's dwelling in Israel in the form of the cloud of His presence and in the gift of the Torah, the Law, was the most detailed revelation any group of people had had of God. God ordained that Israel would be holy and set apart. They were forbidden to intermarry with the pagans or to worship with them.
God's commands to kill the pagan nations came about because of those nations' persistent evvil and choices to sin. Killing them was God exercising His justice against intractable evil. In many cases, such as the Amelekites, God's rendered judgment against them because they refused to allow Israel access to their territory as they travelled, or they in some other way practiced cruelty and hostility when given the chance to be gracious.
God's judgment against evil occurs only against true, intractable evil. Israel tended, over time, to sympathize and mix with the pagans more than they honored God, and they reaped much heartache, banishment, etc. Still, God would destroy their enemies when Israel would repent and return to Him.
Furthermore, God made provisions for people to become part of Israel. If a gentile wished to become part of God's people, he could be circumcised, embrace the law, and be considered an Israelite.
Jesus did not personally kill anyone, but He did tell the Pharisees, just before His death, that their generation was doomed to eternal death. He also taught that those who did not know Him would go to eternal punishment in the lake of fire reserved for the devil and his angels.
Without God's eternal judgment, His eternal mercy would be weak and paltry. If His mercy were not saving us from certain death, if Jesus had not exerienced the full weight of all humanity's sin, if those who refuse Jesus were not doomed to suffer eternal punishment, the mercy we receive would not really be mercy.
God's mercy in the Old Testament saved His people from the evil that tangibly threatened to engulf them in the dark, cruel paganism around them--the child sacrifices, the temple prostitution, the devil worship that enslaved the souls of men and women. His killing of unrepentant people is the same judgment that kills the wicked at the final judgment.
Since Pentecost, the presence of God has been in the world in a much more immanent way. During the last 2,000 years, God's prsence is not limited to a cloud in a nation's capital or to His Spirit resting on chosen prophets or leaders. His presence literally indwells every believer in Christ, and we take His presence with us throughout the world. Ideally, the church mediates the power and protection of God in the world, witnessing to His mercy, exposing and defeating evil, showing that God's love is stronger than cruelty and greed and lust.
God's mercy and justice are both eternal. Evil, however, had pretty much taken over the early civilizations, and God had to show Himself and declare His power and sovereignty over all other gods as He developed a people that would be His and would represent Him. When God would kill pagan armies as Israel advanced into Canaan, even the pagans would acknolwedge that the God of Israel was greater than their gods. The ultimate "value" in the universe is God's glory; His glory will always triumph.
It's never about us. It's never about vindicating people. God is sovereign, and all creation is about declaring His glory. The deaths of evil people was about God's power and glory being greater than evil; if people wanted to be safe, the only place of safety was with the people of Jehovah.
Today, the same is true: the only place of safety is in the heart of our Father, our Judge, our Savior, our Mediator, our Lord. All who refuse to know Him and to be born again of water and the spirit will find themselves outside that safety.
Praise God for His eternal justice and mercy and for calling us from the creation of the world!
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 444
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, August 12, 2004 - 9:55 pm: | |
Colleen,
Thank you. I really like what you wrote about God and why He destroyed the enemies of Israel. I have a better idea now on what to write to my niece.
Diana |
Susan_2
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Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 837
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Friday, August 13, 2004 - 3:26 pm: | |
I asked God to strike my husband dead. Then my sons friend told me, "What da you think, that God is your personal hitman? Get over it. He ain't." |
Busymom
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Username: Busymom
Post Number: 29
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 3:07 pm: | |
In our study at church we are studying the Holy Spirit next week. One of the texts that we will be discussing is "...your body is the temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you, whom you have from God, and you are not your own"1 Cor. 6:19 How do you interpret that text differently now that you are no longer Adventist? This is the text that I always heard as the reason we had to stay away from coffee and try and be as healthful as possible. |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 379
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 3:31 pm: | |
I am always a bit uncomfortable whenever a text is applied out of it's context. I often hear respected ministers say, "But there is an important principle here that has a broader application". That may be true in some cases and perhaps I am overly sensitive, but it still makes me uncomfortable.
The context of this passage in I Cor. 6 is sexual immorality being practiced by believers. The specific issue was having sex with prosititutes. Paul is making the point that when one has sex with a prostitute they are physically uniting with them. He explains that we are united with the Lord through the Holy Spirit and should therefore not unite our bodies in fornication. Although he uses food as an illustration/analogy earlier in the passage, as far as I can tell, the thrust of this passage is not about eating or about health in general, but about sexual and moral purity.
Chris |
Cindy
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Username: Cindy
Post Number: 668
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 5:03 pm: | |
I agree with you Chris...
I also get uncomfortable when I hear messages on "important principles" that have "broader applications". Often these tend to breed legalism--instead of promoting freedom in Christ. Sabbath-keeping, tithe-paying, health laws, etc. have all been misused this way.
We do have choices in our Christian walk--based on the Spirits' promptings and guidance. There is a glorious liberty involved in following Christ alone.
grace always
cindy |
Dennis
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Username: Dennis
Post Number: 172
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, September 12, 2004 - 5:05 pm: | |
Excellent hermeneutics, Chris! We have missed you in recent postless days.
Dennis Fischer |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 693
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 1:04 pm: | |
I agree, Chris and Cindy. I have recently pondered how absurd--actually, how dishonest--it was for Adventists in particular (and other people, also) to use that text in 1 Corinthians 6 to demand health laws. The sexual purity context of that text really says something about the significance of the church being the bride of Christ and also about the transcendent symbolism of marriage. It is an astonishing intimacy that the God of the universe and beyond dwells IN us when we are in Christ.
Colleen |
Busymom
Registered user
Username: Busymom
Post Number: 30
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Monday, September 13, 2004 - 9:06 pm: | |
Thanks Chris for the explanation. I think I need to find a bible study rather than a study based on a book that takes parts of verses. It is too confusing when you are trying to sort out all of the Adventist teaching. |
Dane
Registered user
Username: Dane
Post Number: 40
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, September 16, 2004 - 6:34 pm: | |
I think that Colleen brings up a good point here about the symbolism of marriage. I personally have come to believe that it marriage goes beyond symbolism.
The Triune God exists independently of all else. There is such perfect communion, completeness, and love within the Trinity that there was no actual need for anything else. However as an act of love the Trinity created. The Christian church has always taught that the crown of that creation was man. Why? Because no other created thing can share communion with the Trinity to the fullness that man can, at least that was the plan. Man can reason, judge, appreciate, love, and create.
I think that God established marriage as a very literal means of extending the communion that the Trinity had always shared. In the ideal marriage we could expect exquisite communion, communication, and love, and also creation.
So I think that marriage as originaly intended was to be a constant physical, mental, and spiritual reminder of who man and wife are in relation to God. And as God is holy, so the marriage relationship is also to be holy, and the bodies of the partners are to be holy in regards to the marriage.
When marriage is viewed in this way, then the servere pronouncements against adultery are more easily understood. In I Cor. 6, I think this was Paul's basis.
If marriage is as critical to the correct human condition as the Bible seems to indicate, in that it was intended as THE human equilivalent of the God Head (am I getting carried away here?), then going to a prostitute, doing adultery, etc., would indeed destroy the temple. In fact it may be about the only thing that would.
Just my opinion,
Dane |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 710
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 12:15 am: | |
Dane, I think you are right. And the significance of marriage as an extension of the completeness of the Trinity is not possible without the prsence of the Holy Spirit. I've also come to believe that the reason Moses was allowed to grant divorces to the Israelites because of the hardness of their hearts, as Jesus said, was that they were living outside of communion with God.
The New Testament leaves no room for the casual reasons for divorce that were allowed in Israel. I believe that is because Christ-followers are filled with the Holy Spirit, and marriage between born-again Christians literally involves the presence of God Himself--not just as an attending Person but as an indwelling one. Adultery is literally a sin against God. It admits an outsider who has no part in the covenant of marriage (which includes the Holy Spirit) into the relationship.
I've also pondered the idea that one reason homosexuality is a sin is that it does not require us to surrender ourselves to another who is unlike ourselves. In other words: homosexuality is, it seems, easier than Biblical marriage because men understand how men think, and women "get" women's thought processes. Marriage requires us to transcend what's "normal" for us and embrace, respect, and surrender to someone very unlike ourselves. This surrender to one who is like us yet unlike us is what we must do when we surrender ourselves to Jesus. As long as we hold onto our own understanding of reality and resist the "illogic" of surrendering to Jesus, we are out of relationship. Surrendering to the One who is not the same as we are is the route to fulfillment and meaning.
Just my ramblings--
Colleen |
Cindy
Registered user
Username: Cindy
Post Number: 673
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Friday, September 17, 2004 - 6:47 am: | |
Dane, very excellent thoughts! I really appreciate your words on marriage; agree totally.
And, Colleen, your "ramblings" always give me the feeling of being a "kindred spirit" with you!
Thank-you both.
grace always,
cindy |
Busymom
Registered user
Username: Busymom
Post Number: 32
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 2:15 pm: | |
The bible is clear that unbelievers should not be yoked to believers. According to the bible to marry an unbeliever is a sin.
I married my husband knowing that he did not attend church regularly or have a close personal relationship with Jesus. Several weeks prior to our marriage I was ready to call it off due to our differences on religion. My mother reminded me of all my husbands good qualities and reassured me that everything would be fine. I have not regretted the last nine years of marriage. I broke up with a man who was an elder in the Adventist church and knew his Bible well, I broke up with him because of the lousy way he treated his mother.
My question is according to the bible I sinned in marrying my husband, but I do not feel any repentance or regret. Obviously it would be easier to have a soulmate to discuss spiritual issues with. He fell asleep in the first bible class he recently attended, and won't attempt attending again until our house construction project is finished.
The women's group at church is reading "Beloved unbeliever" This is a quote from the book "Finally, a Christian woman cannot expect God to honor her disobedience if she willfully married an unbeliever. She should expect to be disciplined and accept it as part of her growth. She must realize that the Lord isn't disciplining her to get back at her for marrying out of His will, but to lead her into future obedience."
I am not sure whether I should pray to feel repentant. I know God has my husband's salvation and life in his hands. The quote above makes me feel like a bad christian. I know Colleen had prayed that Christ would be glorified in my marriage, but that won't happen if I am in sin. |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 577
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 3:38 pm: | |
Busymom, God is omnipotent and He can use our mistakes to His honor and glory. Remember the verse, "All things work together for good". I do not remember the rest, but God can make good come from our mistakes. God loves you and your husband and as long as you are seeking Him every day, God will be there for you and your husband.
Colleen, has written something to the effect that God will redeem our mistakes. If I have misquoted you Colleen, I apologize. We are all sinners and have come short of the glory of God. I have sinned and God is redeeming my mistakes. God can and will be glorified in your marriage as long as you turn to him each day. Do not let Satan get you down, by telling you that Christ cannot be glorified in your marriage. It may be harder if you do not believe the same, but God's will will be done. He is still in charge and is awesome.
Diana |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 139
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, September 18, 2004 - 4:27 pm: | |
Dear Busymom,
I am assuming that there has to be more to the book than looking at the negative. By the title it sounds like it might be leading you to see how God works in the lives of those who seem to be "lost" in our view point but loved in His...but I've never read it and cannot comment on it.
Here is what I know to be true: We are ALL sinners. Your sin of marrying an unbeliever is the same as my sin of impatience with my 9 year old (and believe me - that is the lest of all my dark sins!). Praise God for His great gift of Grace! To me, the biggest tragedy all of us sinners can make is to live in shame, fear and intimidation. The tragedy is to think that is the way we should live - to be victimized, existing as if living on death row instead of enjoying the beauty of the abundant life Christ made possible for all of us to claim.
Romans 8:28 is my all time favorite verse. It gives me a clear understanding of what my mistakes mean in the overall big picture of my life: "For we know that God causes all THINGS to work together for good to those who LOVE God..." Notice that is does not say IF we love Him, He will work everything out to be positive. He doesn't even CAUSE good things to happen. What I have come to see in my own life is that He does bring about a positive from the negative that I brought about on myself. Most of those negatives in my life are not something I would ever again want to endure but I can look back and say that because of that negative journey my path today is so much clearer and positive. Am I making any sense?
When your book says, "She should expect to be disciplined", I take that to mean that when we make a choice that we know is against God's plan for our lives we can expect to have more disappointments, fears, hurts, pains than we would experieince if we chose His plan. But as James tells us our trials shape us into what we can become and that we should consider it all joy because the testing of our faith produces endurance. Mother Teresa said, "I can say with complete truthfulness that everything I have learned in this world that has enhanced and enlightened my experience, has been through affliction and not through happiness."
Isn't God's grace and love beautiful? We all go against His will but He still loved us enough to sacrifice Himself for us. We turn our backs on Him and He STILL wants the best for us! UNBELIEVABLE! I think this is what the last sentence means in what you quoted from your book - "She must realize the the Lord isn't discipling her to get back at her for marrying out of His will, but to lead her into future obedience." Busymom, your marriage can be used by God to lead you into a life of Eternity! No one is EVER too sinful. PRAISE HIM!
I have said several times on this forum that I have to be grateful for my SDA upbringing because it has led me to be more appreciative and thankful for God's Grace and His New Covenant with me than I would otherwise be. Being raised SDA caused me to make many hurtful, sinful choices that I will never be able to undo. But because of my past God has given me so much in return.
Accept His grace and lean on Him! You are in my prayers!
|
Melissa
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Username: Melissa
Post Number: 487
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 3:48 pm: | |
You can't undo spilt milk. Any more than I can unbirth my "illegitimate" son. Accept the forgiveness Christ offers for past sins and move forward. If you have sought forgiveness, the one throwing it back in your face is Satan ... or yourself. God keeps no records. From the east to the west type thing. You are in a valuable spot to mentor other girls who are contemplating marriage outside the faith, but find a way to "get over it". I only say that because someone said it to me and the shock value really made me think. God knows our lives end to end. Yes, we should regret our sin, but you can't do pennance to get it forgotten or somehow make you feel better. Yes, we all have to live with consequences. But use them to make yourself stronger and find a new depth in your relationship with Christ. That's what he wants, I suspect. |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 716
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, September 19, 2004 - 10:03 pm: | |
Oh, Busymom, I agree with Dd and Melissa. Ephesians 1:11 says we were "predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity to the purpose of his will." Notice that it does not say God works out everything according to his will but according to the purpose of his will.
God absolutely knows our broken places where we cannot serve Him because of our deep wounds or blind spots. I've come to believe that God allows us to do things that lead us into places of deep regret not because our sins are His will but because He wants us to KNOW what our places of sin and weakness are. He wants His strength to be made perfect in our weakness, and if we never tripped over our rationalizing of truth or our self-deception, we would never know our deep sinfulness.
The purpose of God's will includes Christ's redemption of our sometimes willful sin. I know that I never understood how helpless I was to be a good, moral person until I found myself in a divorce which I thought I could prevent or at least justify. When I saw how powerless I was to manage my own life and to make consistently good decisions, I really believed I could not be forgiven. I realize now that God needed me to know without a hint of doubt or pride that I was hopelessly flawed and utterly worthy of being lost. He had to let me hang myself, so to speak, before I really understood that only a miracle could save me--and He gave me that miracle. He met me as I paced my apartment feeling the weight of death in my heart, and without words but with inexpressible peace He told me He forgave me and that He was not done with me. That began my long walk toward the light that led me to freedom in Jesus and freedom from Adventism.
God's will for me would have been that I make decisions based on faith and trust long before my divorce--long before that marriage, even. But the purpose of His will was to bring me to realize my deep, inherent sinfulness and to lead me to trust Him with my life and to give up my hopeless attempts to manage myself. He allowed me to sin and be sinned against in order that the purpose of His will would be accomplished in me.
Busymom, I don't know what underlying issues God wants to deal with in your AND your husband's lives, but you can be certain that He is working out the purpose of His will even in your marriage. Don't forget that Paul also talks about being married to an unbeliever in 1 Corinthians 7:12-16. He says this, "If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy."
While this verse is not meant to be permission for a believer to marry an unbeliever, it is instructive for those who are married and, for whatever reason, find themselves in this position. I believe that the fact that the unbeliever chooses to stay with the believer means that, at some level, the unbeliever is choosing to stay in the presence of God instead of walking away from it. The believer is filled with the Holy Spirit--is, in fact, God's temple because He lives in him/her--and the Holy Spirit is a party in the marriage. The unbeliever is choosing to stay in indirect relationship to God by choosing to stay with the believing spouse.
In verse 16 Paul continues, "How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?"
So, Busymom, God does bring us to the place of confessing not only the acts of sin we have committed but also the deep attitudes and brokenness and self-deception that underlay our sins. From that point on, however, God is in the process of redemption. He can work out all things for good when we love Him. He will redeem even the results of our sins to accomplish the purpose of His will in our lives.
I pray that God will glorify Himself in your marriage and that He will strengthen you, give your heart His peace and Sabbath rest, and draw your husband to Himself.
Praise God that He wastes nothing and that He redeems everything we submit to Him!
Colleen |
Busymom
Registered user
Username: Busymom
Post Number: 33
Registered: 4-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 8:29 am: | |
DD, Diana, Colleen, & Melissa, Thank you for your replies. There is a lot for me to think about in your replies. I agree it is not useful to cry over spilt milk. A concept that I have been studying in the Bible recently is waiting on God. I believe David waited 12 years after he was told he would become King for the actual event to take place. That is a long time to wait for a promise to happen. I know that is an area I am weak in is waiting, I tend to want to take matters into my own hands. I heard a pastor saying this week that when you don't know God's clear direction on something, the best thing to do is to do nothing.
Colleen, I will have to think about the difference between God's will and the purpose of his will. The difference isn't crystal clear to me at this time. I do believe Roman's 8:28, but in some cases the promise isn't fulfilled until we are with Jesus.
The major theme of "Beloved Unbeliever" is faith and trust. The book goes over repeatedly that we can not manipulate and verbally convince our loved ones of their need for Jesus. We need to trust our loved ones to Jesus. Only the Holy Spirit can convince them of their need for him. As, I said before the book was difficult for me to read because it did point out my lack of faith and trust when I married someone who was not a strong Christian. Even though he is a wonderful man, father, provider etc., etc. His focus is on accumulating wealth, and life on this earth. Anyways, I trust his salvation to Jesus, and I appreciate all of your kind words, and prayers. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 720
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 21, 2004 - 12:46 pm: | |
Busymom, I will continue to pray for you--and for your husband.
I have had to struggle over the fact that I made bad choices even while I was praying to make the right choice. In retrospect, I see that my trust was not strong enough in Jesus--in short, I did not know him well--to make the best decisions. In fact, my view of truth and reality was skewed enough that I did not not deal with the underlying problems in my life; instead, I struggled with the circumstances my underlying brokenness got me into.
Sometimes when I look back on my life, I see so clearly how deep my lack of trust was and how wrong many of my decisions were. At the same time, my life was broken enough that I'm not sure how I could have really made healthy decisions then. I'm not excusing myself; I've experienced a great relief in letting go of my defensive explanations of why I did the things I did and simply confessing my sin to God, not trying at all to explain that my blindness (and ultimately, in many ways, my Adventism) kept me from seeing and experiencing truth.
God has used those self-protecting, rationalized decisions, though, as part of His means of bringing me to confront my true need of Him.
I completely understand your difficulty in reading that book because of your conviction of your own sin. But, Busymom, that conviction is a gift. You can freely confess you self-serving decisions to God, deeply acknowledging your sin and releasing your guilt to God. And this confession does not mean that you have to give up your admiration or love for your husband. You can be repentant at the same time you thank God for what He has and is accomplishing in you in spite of yourself.
This dichotomy--knowing I am guilty but also realizing God has blessed me at the same time--was very hard to deal with. Yet God is a God of paradox. He does convict us of our hopeless sinfulness, and He does bless us in Christ simultaneously when we are seeking His healing in our lives. When I could totally surrender myself to the reality that I had failed and sinned, even though I was experiencing God's blessings, I began to have deep peace and freedom that I had not known before in those areas of my life.
I see now the decisions God likely would have led to to make had I really known Him and trusted Him then. They might well have resulted in much the same outcomes, but there would have been less suffering and brokenness. Yet that is past, and I can only praise God for accomplishing His purposes in my life in spite of my flawed thinking and decisions. And I praise Him that he has revealed Himself and His unimaginable forgiveness to me in the process!
Praise God!
Colleen |
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