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4drian
Registered user
Username: 4drian
Post Number: 47
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, January 24, 2005 - 11:03 pm: |     |
We not only have a conscience but we also have the Holy Spirit. Once we accept Christ, the HS enters our hearts and He guides us in the ways of the Lord. We don't always listen but the end result is actually much better than being on our own and trying to follow a set of rules (commandments). The best thing is that once we accept Christ we want to do what is right in His eyes even though we gain nothing else by it. After all, we have already gained all there is to gain (salvation) just by accepting Him.
The problem is that we will never be able to explain this phenomenon to someone who is not a true Christian. It goes agains man's sinful nature and they cannot understand it. That's why SDAs will often claim that by saying that we are not under the law, we are simply trying to justify doing whatever we want. It is because that's what they would do if they weren't afraid of judgement.
How can you explain to someone that even though you are not under the law, the Holy Spirit has changed you in such a way that you have less desire to do sinful things than when you were under the law? You cannot. They will never understand until they experience it for themselves.
-Adrian |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1300
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 25, 2005 - 10:35 am: | |
Adrian, you've expressed the reality of being born of the Spirit perfectly. It's true, Tom, that we all have a "conscience", but our consciences can be warped. Romans 1 clarifies that the knowledge of God has been revealed through what has been made, so all men are without excuse. The problem is they have suppressed the knowledge of God by their wickedness.
The fact that the Holy Spirit indwells us when we surrender to Jesus really does make us new. We don't quit committing sins, but He continuously brings new things to out attention that we need to surrender to Him. Of COURSE we're not looking for ways to sin without guilt! The Holy Spirit is holding us accountable in ways even our consiences never could.
And it's true that the reality of living by the Spirit is something we can't really explain to anyone who hasn't experienced it.
More and more I'm convinced that the way we discover reality and the power of living by the Spirit is by immersing ourselves in the Bible--surrendering to the Spirit's teaching while we read. We just will not discover reality by just analysis alone. We are to worship God in spirit (our spirits brought to life by the Holy Spirit) and in truth (the external, propositional truth found in God's Word). Both are essential. Either by itself (seeking the Spirit without being grounded in the Word, or revering the Bible without surrendering to Jesus) yields heresy.
I am so thankful for the fact that God gave us His Word and sent His Spirit to make us completely new creations.
Colleen |
Derrell
Registered user
Username: Derrell
Post Number: 36
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 11:49 am: | |
In studying the Old Testament, I am appaled at the God I see represented there. At every turn he is lashing out in anger, killing indiscriminately, and making laws that require intolerance and bloodshed. I can't seem to reconcile this God with the Christ depicted in the Gospels. It is like a 180. They appear to be opposite in virtually every respect. Here are a few examples:
The Other Side of God
Exodus 32:27, 28
After the Israelites worshipped the golden calf, God had Moses kill about 3,000 of them.
Leviticus 24:11-14
Two young men were fighting, and one of them cursed. God commanded that he be taken outside the camp and stoned to death.
Numbers 15:32-36
A man picked up some sticks on Sabbath. There was no rule about that, so Moses asked God what to do. God told Moses to have the man stoned to death.
Numbers 16
Korah, Dathan, and Abiram challenged the authority of the Levites, and were backed by many of the Israelites. God killed the three challengers along with their wives and little children by burying them alive. He then killed 250 more people with fire, and 14,700 more with a plague.
Numbers 21:31-35
God tells Israel to kill the entire population of the nation of Bashan. They comply.
Numbers 25
God kills 24,000 Israelites for befriending and worshiping with Midianites.
Numbers 31
God told Israel to destroy the Midianites. The Israelites went to war, killed all of the Midianite men, and took the women and children as slaves. Moses was enraged. He had all of the women who were not virgins, and every male child killed. The female children were kept as slaves.
Joshua 6:21
Per Godís order, Joshua had every man, woman, and child in Jericho killed by the sword, except for Rahab and her family.
Joshua 9:24-26
God had Joshua kill the entire population of the city of Ai. 12,000 men, women, and children were slaughtered.
Joshua 10
God had Joshua take the following cities ìand all the souls therein he utterly destroyed.î
Makkedah, Libnah, Lachish, Gezer, Eglon, Hebron, Debir, Kadesh-Barnea, Gaza, Goshen, Gibeon, ìhe left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded.î
Joshua 11
At Godís command Joshua slaughters every human inhabitant of Hazor, Madon, Shimron, Achshaph, and many unnamed cities.
Judges 11:29-40
Jephthah burns his daughter, on an alter, as a human sacrifice to God. God blesses him, and makes him a judge over Israel for the rest of his life.
Judges 21
The men of the tribe of Benjamin need wives, so God tells Israel to send an army to Jabesh-Gilead and kill every man, woman, and male child, saving only the young virgins to be used as wives.
1 Samuel 6:19
The Philistines put the Ark of God on an unmanned ox cart. The oxen took it to the town of Bethshemesh. The townís inhabitants saw the Ark when it arrived, and for that God struck 50,070 of them dead.
1 Samuel 15
God tells Saul that because the Amalekite people troubled Israel many generations ago, their descendents were to pay for it with their blood. He was to slaughter the entire nation, putting every man, woman, child, and baby to the sword. So he did it.
2 Samuel 6:6, 7
When an ox cart transporting the Ark of God bounced, the driver, Uzzah, reached out to steady the Ark. God struck him dead.
The Law
Exodus 21:15
If a child strikes his mother or father, he is to be killed.
Exodus 21:17
If a child curses his mother or father, he is to be killed.
Exodus 22:18
Witches are to be killed
Exodus 22:20
If someone sacrifices to another god, he is to be killed.
Exodus 31:15
Anyone who does any work on the Sabbath is to be put to death.
Leviticus 12
After a woman gives birth to a boy, she will be unclean for 33 days. After giving birth to a girl, she will be unclean for 66 days.
Leviticus 15:19
During her period, a woman is unclean and is to be put in seclusion for seven days. Anyone or anything that touches her is also unclean.
Leviticus 20:10
If adultery is committed by two married people, they are both to be executed.
Leviticus 21:16-24
No person who is crippled, blind, a dwarf, or with any superfluous blemish is allowed inside the sanctuary. They are profane before God.
Leviticus 24:16
Anyone who blasphemes Godís name is to be put to death.
Numbers 5:11-31
If a man thinks his wife has slept around, but he doesnít have proof, he can take her to the priest who will do a test on her. The priest will do a ceremony with water, and have her drink it. If she is guilty, her belly will swell up and her thigh will rot. If she is innocent, nothing will happen.
Numbers 15:32-36
If a person picks up sticks on the Sabbath, they are to suffer death by stoning.
Deuteronomy 7:5
All places of worship belonging to other religions are to be destroyed.
Deuteronomy 13:1-5
Any prophet or dreamer who makes a prediction that doesnít come true is to be put to death.
Deuteronomy 13:6-11
If any friend or family member talks to you about changing religions, you are to personally kill that individual.
Deuteronomy 15:12-18
You are allowed to own slaves, even if they are of your own people.
Deuteronomy 21:18-21
If a child is rebellious, his parents are to have him stoned to death.
Deuteronomy 25:11, 12
If a woman attacks a manís private parts with her hand during a fight, her hand is to be cut off.
Can this apparent disparity between two persons who are supposed to be one be explained? The Allah represented by the more radical Muslims seems to be following the track laid out by the God of the Old Testament. He seemed to have no problem with slaughtering the innocent.
Please understand, I am not looking for a fight, I am just seeking clarification on a matter that is very confusing to me.
Thanks
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Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 183
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 1:41 pm: | |
Derrell,
I don't have answers, but wanted to say that I am also one who has wondered about many of these same things. I'll be interested in responses, but I don't feel I have to have resolution to these issues this side of heaven. |
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 323
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 2:53 pm: | |
Derrell,
I have felt as you but have found as I look a bit deeper that God was so loving and long-suffering with His people. There are many more people on this forum that will explain this with great and beautiful composition. I am not as talented with my words as they are. I will leave it to them but I just had to tell you my understanding of all the verses you shared above is that our God is very just and forgiving and tolerant and above all else loving with an unconditional love that is in no way deserved. The OT is a beautiful love story for us today. |
Jeannette
Registered user
Username: Jeannette
Post Number: 82
Registered: 3-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 3:03 pm: | |
Derrell,
I have the same questions as you do. I have a hard time reading the old testament because of all the cruelty described in it. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1315
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 3:46 pm: | |
I believe Romans 1, again, provides the insight that helps us--me, at least!--understand these Old Testament demonstrations of God's wrath better.
Romans 1:18 says that God's wrath "is being revealed [present perfect tense--it's going on now and also continuing] from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickednessÖ"
God's "invisible qualitiesóhis eternal power and divine natureó"have been clearly seen" since creation (Romans 1:20). But because men's hearts were rebellious and wicked and they suppressed the truth, God "gave them over" to every one of their evil impulses. (v. 24, 26, 28) His allowing them to reap the results of their evil was His wrath being poured out on them.
When God called Israel to follow Him and be His people, He called them to a specific standard of behavior (the law) that represented His eternal morality. That morality was always there--but it was part of what people suppressed by their wickedness. The law states clearly that if Israel broke the law, they would die. In fact, the law spelled out the death sentence for all types of infractions.
This rigid set of cause-and-effect laws was designed to make Israel aware of how depraved they were. Without the law, they were unconscious that much of their behavior was actually sin (Romans 4:13-14). The law was specifically given to Israel so that they would become aware that pretty much all of their impulses were sinful, and by having to guage their behavior by the standard of the law, they would now be responsible for their sinfulness. They would no longer be sinning in ignorance. Their sinfulness would actually increase because now they would be sinning knowingly (Romans 5:20, 7:7-8; Galatians 3:19).
The immediate retribution of God upon sinners was displaying the reality that God does not tolerate blatant evil. His stringent laws for Israel and His personal punishments of death on the wicked are the reality of God's attitude toward sin. They are, in fact, showing exactly what all mankind's fate would be if we stood before the Eternal God as we are.
But God did not give this "brutal" law to Israel without also giving them the most personal revelation of Himself that he had ever given fallen man up to that time. He gave them the list of blessings and curses, but He also gave them the sacrifices, the understanding of repentance, and His own personal presence among them. No other people experienced a personal God. Their gods were abstract and brutal, demanding, never satisfied. The Israelite's God lived among them in the cloud of the presence that rested on/in the tabernacle.
Israel's God fought their battles as they marched into Canaan. It was customary at that time for armies to take their deities into battle with them. The winning army, therefore, could claim the superior god. The defeated nation became subject to the winning nation and, as part of their becoming subject to the winning nation, they had to worship to the winning nation's god. They had to "convert", as it were!
When Israel went into battle and God arranged for the enemies to die, usually with Israel shedding little of the blood but rather the enemy becoming confused and killing each other, the reputation of Israel's God began to spread throughout the land. He clearly was superior to any of their gods--He not only won the nation's battles, but He won without the Israelites even doing much of the work! (They were even then depending on God's work for them; not their own.)
When the spies found refuge in Rahab's house in Jericho, she said that the reputation of Israel's God had reached them, and they were afraid of Israel's approach.
Simultaneously, within Israel, God honored His people when they honored Him. His punishments in the face of persistent disobedience were simply the natural result of Israel refusing to obey. Remember--the blood of the eternal covenant had not yet been shed. There was no sacrifice for sin standing eternally between them and God at that point. They were getting what rebellious humans deserved. Yet even then, He offered them repentance and animal sacrifices as temporary atonement. And while the sacrifices might effect atonement, still the sins had consequences (as they still do!).
God was showing the world that He was not a God to be taken lightly. He was not just one of the many gods available--He was sovereign over ALL powers and people. He was a God to be feared and respected--He was the One True God. YEt even then, He blessed His people, continually forgave them and brought them back to Himself, and promised them a Redeemer.
The coming of Jesus showed us the merciful attributes of God. This powerful God whose wrath was poured out on sin still loved His sinful creations, and, in a truly amazing act of mercy which no pagan god would ever offer, He gave His eternal Son--God--to die for the sins of the world.
God's wrath is absolute, and we must never presume to think He will let our sins "slide by" because He's so merciful. Yet His love is the most seminal force in the universe; He died to give us His life. We can be delivered from our death sentence because Jesus took God's wrath for us.
In the big picture, it is not human life that is the ultimate value in the universe. It is God's glory. OUr physical life is nothing compared to the eternal consequence of our belief or unbelief.
Even Paul made this point clear to the Corinthians. If someone in the church, he said, persisted in willful and blatant sin, he should be handed 'over to Satan, so that the sinful nature may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord." (1 Cor. 5:45)
In 1 Corinthians 11 Paul talks about the self-centered attitudes of the Corinthians when they met for the Lord's Supper. Because of their irreverence and lack of care for each other (Christ's body), he said, many of them were "weak and sick, and a number of you have fallen asleep. But if we judged ourselves, we would not come under judgment. When we are judged by the Lord, we are being disciplined so that we will nont be condemned with the world." (1 Cor. 11:30-31)
No we have JEsus' eternal blood standing between us who believe and the wrath of God. Through Jesus God has shown the world the answer to the dreadful surety of His wrath.
The Old Testament shows us that God is sovereign over life and death and over all others who claim deity. He killed the Canaanites (according to Joshua in the book of Judges) not because Israel deserved the land but because the Canaanites were intractably evil. God's wiping them out was His wrath finally coming against their arrogant sin. His judgments on wickedness left no doubt in anyone's mind that the God of Israel was more powerful than any other god. He was to be feared, respected, and honored.
The New Testament shows the fulfillment of the law. The inevitable formula: sin equals death, had to be fulfilled. But this God of sovereign power over life and death took that death Himself. He became sin for us so we would become the righteousness of God (2 Corinthians 5:21).
The Old Testament cannot be fully comprehended unless we read it through the eyes of the New Testament's fulfillment of it. God was not different in the Old Testament than in the New. In the new, all that blood and suffering and wrath is taken and endured in the person of Jesus. The point is to show us that what we deserve is not what we get. The God of ultimate goodness and glory and wrath took that wrath into Himself in order to make a way for us to return to relationship with Him.
The loss of human physical life is not the most dreadful thing. The loss of eternity is. The world had become so wicked that it would have completely missed (not just mostly missed!) the reality of Jesus if God hadn't shown us, through his relationship with Israel, exactly who He was, what He expected, and who we are, and what He promised us.
Ultimately, it's all about God's glory. We are here to witness to His glory. All His works are witness of His glory--even the works of sovereign wrath. But His wrath has been satisfied. Jesus bore that weight.
We now can inherit eternity, and we "are being transformed into his likeness with ever-increasing glory, which comes from the Lord, who is the Spirit" (2 Corinthians 3:18).
Amazing.
Colleen |
Derrell
Registered user
Username: Derrell
Post Number: 37
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 3:59 pm: | |
Dd
I wish I could see what you are saying, but I don't. I have never seen a reason for killing children put forth that I can agree with. Ever! To me there can be no more despicable thing. Yet, time after time God demands that kids be slaughtered. Jesus, on the other hand, placed a very high value on the lives and happiness of kids. He said, "suffer the little children to come unto me and forbid them not, for of such is the kingdom of heaven." He also said that a person would be better off to have a millstone tied around his neck and be thrown into the sea than to hurt a child. Does this sound like the same person who specifically commanded that every infant in the nation of Amalek be put to the sword?
I've read the Bible through several times alongside commentary from the Conflict of the Ages series, and in that context all I saw was God being tolerant and long suffering to a stiff necked people, destroying cities and those who stood in his way because as idolaters who did not convert, they needed to be destroyed (sound a little like the radical Muslims?). Now I am reading it as a human seeing that it was not just cities destroyed, it was individuals, many of whom were totally innocent.
According to the History Channel, Eusebius, the Bishop of Rome under Constantine, brought all of the leading bishops together in the Council of Nicea, and on Constantine's order, they compiled what we now consider canon scripture. They took the Torah, and a great variety of other Jewish writings, sorted through them, and decided which ones would constitute the Old Testament. Now I know I am treading on thin ice here, but could the Council of Nicea have made any mistakes in their decision making process? |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1318
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 4:45 pm: | |
Derrell, I understand your viewpoint. I struggled with the same questions for a very long time. It wasn't until I began to see that, whether I like it or not, human life is NOT the highest value in the universe, that the OT began to make sense.
Even in the case of the Amalekites, God did not instantly destroy them. They first attacked Israel in the desert as the nation was marching to Canaan. One of the reasons their hostility was considered so dreadful was that the Amalekites were Esau's descendants. They were actually Israel's "cousins", and they knew it. They were aggressive without cause.
Still, God did not destroy them. He commanded that they be killed, but they were not destroyed until many years later. In fact, they declined eventually, and in Hezekiah's day Simeon destroyed the "remnant of the Amalekites." As a matter of fact, in an amazing divine paradox, Haman was a descendant of Amalek, and Mordecai was a descendant of Saul. Centuries after Saul refused to obey God's command and preserved Amalek alive, his descendant defeated Amalek's descendant.
God ordered their destruction, to be sure--He asked Saul to destroy them as you mentioned above. But His commands were based on their intractable evil. Other pagan nations he ordered Israel to preserve because of their respect for Israel and thus for God's sovereignty over them.
The point of God's destruction of evil in the OT was not simply that evil nations had to be punished. The real cause was that they refused to acknowledge Him as God, and they were so cruel that they were continuous dangers to the rest of the world around them. When people refuse to acknowledge God, they close off their ability to behave with any compassion or justice. That was the case with the Amalekites and other peoples as well.
Remember God talking to Abraham about Sodom and Gommorah? If there had been ten righteous people there, He would have preserved the cities. God didn't order the Amalekites killed because He was arbitrary and the children were just unlucky innocents. He ordered their destruction (which, again, he allowed Israel to disobey for decades) because those children would have matured to carry on the Amalekite reign of terror.
And again, the fact that He ordered their deaths does not mean He did not save those children. Their physical lives are not the main issue. Just as God can know an adult's heart, He can know a child's as well. Just as God filled John the Baptist with the Holy Spirit before birth, and just as David, who said he was conceived in sin, nevertheless also said he loved the Lord since his early childhood, God could make himself known in some way to those children whom He knew would have hearts for Him. WE absolutely can't know what He did--but we can know that He is infinitely just and also infinitely merciful. The deaths of many of those children may have been a great mercy--and many of them may be alive with Him for eternity.
The point isn't HUMANITY. The point is GOD. We are here to glorify Him. In the process, He glorifies us.
Colleen |
Derrell
Registered user
Username: Derrell
Post Number: 38
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 4:54 pm: | |
Maybe I shouldn't be burdening you with these kinds of questions, but while I'm in the process of questioning what I have been taught, I am questioning everything. What you said, Colleen, makes some philisophical sense to me as I read it, but only as a big picture. We humans are not play things to be toyed around with. If God indeed is capable of seeing each human as though there were no other, feeling what each person feels, and trully knowing the depth of human joy and suffering, how could he possibly make laws that ultimately require parents to participate in stoning their own child to death? Do you have any idea what that entailed?
In stoning, a person was bound hand and foot, bones were broken, nose smashed, eyeballs ruptured, scalp torn loose, and other things that I won't go into, all of this usually before their skull was crushed and they died. It was a lengthy, horrible torture.
If you are a parent, think about this as a parent. Could you live with even the possibility of this happening? After seeing it happen even once could you maintain any love for the God who commanded it? As a soldier, could you even consider picking up a child and ripping him open with a knife? Even if your commander told you that God said to do it?
This stuff is more than theology, it is more than just making a point, it is the reality of individual human life and the infliction of unspeakable suffering. It would be easier not to think about it, or read it, but if I am going to worship a God, I want to know who he is. Not just what would be nice to know, but all of it. |
Derrell
Registered user
Username: Derrell
Post Number: 39
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 5:08 pm: | |
I have to go now, but thank you for the thoughtful responses to my wild ranting. I certainly appreciate this site and each of the people who post here |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 291
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 5:59 pm: | |
THE CANONICITY OF SCRIPTURE
In the church councils that considered the canon question, the Latin word "recipimus" was used, meaning "WE RECEIVE" the following books to be included in the canon. In that usage of the word "RECEIVE," it is clear that the church was not declaring certain books to be authoritative by virtue of the church's prior authority, but that the church was simply acknowledging the Word of God to be the Word of God. By the word "RECEIVE" they displayed their willingness to submit to what they regarded to be already the Word of God. Consequently, any notion that the church creates the Bible or is superior to the Bible is eliminated.
All in all, the Scriptures receive their authority from God, not from the church nor from any other human source. The canon was created in principle by divine inspiration. The church's part was to discern the canon which God had created, NOT TO DEVISE ONE OF ITS OWN.
CREDIT: The above paragraphs are excerpts from "Explaining Inerrancy" by Dr. R. C. Sproul.
--Dennis Fischer
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Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 324
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 7:06 pm: | |
Derrell,
Please do not feel you are "burdening" anyone. This is exactly what I love most about my new freedom in Christ. We are to seek and are also promised when we do seek we will find.
Jesus said, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. If you really knew Me, you would know My Father as well. From now on, you do know Him and have seen Him" (John 14:6,7). Belief and trust in Jesus really is the only way to know God. Only Jesus can bring us into a relationship with His Father. Jesus even went a step further and said, "These words you hear are not my own; they belong to the Father who sent me."
A friend recently pointed out to me the most beautiful story. It is found, of all places, in Ezekiel! It is an allegory of the unconditional love God had for His people of Israel and I am also touched personally today because it relates to me and the many times I have turned my back on Him, determined to do things my way. It is found in chapter 16 - check it out and see if it gives you a different perspective.
Derrell, in my own little mind, I "see" God of the OT the same as I "see" God of today - as I imagine Him as He is watching all the events of the world unfold. Nations today are basically the same nations of the OT. The individuals living in the OT are the same as all of us today. Busy, bustling around...we may not have the same idols of the OT but we still have our idols none-the-less...money, careers, TV, activities...all of it that is placed as a higher priority in our lives than we place God.
I, myself, still struggle with God's "involvement". Was God really up in Heaven on 9/11 pushing buttons so those planes did their deadly destruction? Or was it just the Satanic influence of evil in men? I am sure this will open up a whole other line of debate but to me it is relevent as you look back over the OT and the destruction of the enemies of Israel and of Israel itself.
Colleen, writes with so much clarity and I may be repeating much of what she wrote above. What comforts me most and gives me a sense of beauty from the OT is how depraved the human race has been from so early on and yet God in His unfathonable love patiently stood by His people. The book of Hosea is another beautiful story that gives us another view of God's unending and consistent love.
I don't know if this helps, Derrell. I have had three fabulous studies of OT books. I was like you and could not "stomach" the OT picture that was painted of God. I would like to encourage you to find a study that is Bible based only (those Conflict of the Ages books are not Bible only...remember EGW paints our loving Savior Jesus as a "frowning meanie"). It is only when you see the love and patience that God showered on Israel that the God of vengence is understood.
Hold tight the promise of John 14:26 as you are studying God's Words for your own life. Best wishes, Derrell.  |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1321
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 8:10 pm: | |
Dd, you said it so well. I'm reminded of what John Piper says in one of his books. He says he sees the difficult passages of Scripture as passages he is to pray about. They are there, he says, so we will ask God to show us what the truth is that He wants us to know--so we'll ask Him to teach us.
Ultimately, reading the Bible is an act of faith. We can either read it from a perspective of modern textual criticsm, or we can read it from the perspective that it is God's word to us. If we approach it with the confidence that the Holy Spirit inspired it and will also teach us through it, the Bible is a completely new book that really is seamless and congruent. And that perspective is not the product of our analysis alone.
God really does teach us through it when we surrender to His words.
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 963
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, January 27, 2005 - 8:18 pm: | |
About all that fighting that God had Israel do in the OT. The way I see it is that God knew the hearts of those that were killed. I do not know what was going on in their heart or head. Then I repeat the Serenity Prayer to myself, "God, grant me the serenity to ACCEPT THE THINGS I CANNOT CHANGE, the courage to change the things I can and the wisdom to know the difference. I cannot do a thing about what God did in the past and I cannot even attempt to change it. So I accept it and know that one day in heaven God will explain it all. He will and He is awesome.
Diana |
Melissa
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Username: Melissa
Post Number: 697
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, January 28, 2005 - 10:06 am: | |
What I find curious is that since the children had not yet reached the age of accountability, is it likely they will be in heaven? Could they have actually had long term gain for the short term "loss"?? Just ponderings. It is a struggle to see the verses isolated and pulled from context as is above. But we also have to know God knows more than we do. |
Weimarred
Registered user
Username: Weimarred
Post Number: 16
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 12:17 am: | |
Derrell,
I too was often struck by the harshness of the OT God; still, your list caught me off guard. Itís really hard to reconcile the OT and NT profiles.
One point I heard regarded animals (God would sometimes command even the deaths of the enemyís animals). Some speculated that it was because the animals harbored some dread disease, much as modern monkeys are thought to have originally harbored the AIDS virus. Still, why all the human carnage?
In the SDA environment I grew up in, we tended to gloss over the OT. I didnít really have much exposure until a Bible class at MBA my senior year. My teacher really dug into the history, especially that of King David. Now he was a piece of work! First David places a very faithful soldier in harmís way so that when he is killed David can take his wife, Bathsheba. Then one of Davidís sons commits incest with his sister. David does nothing. So another of Davidís sons, Absolom, kills his incestuous brother. Still, David does nothing. So an emboldened Absolom leads a revolt against his father, and of course, ends up with his long hair caught in a tree. So another faithful soldier kills Absolom while he is helplessly hanging from the tree. So what does David do? He kills the soldier who killed the rebellious son!
I may have some of the story slightly out of kilter, but the point is, the leader of Godís chosen people made Clinton, and even JFK, look like girl scouts by comparison. And we hadnít even gotten to Solomon yet!
So in the OT, we have a very harsh God portrayed, a sometimes rebellious chosen people, and leaders who could out-sin the worst of us!
I donít propose to have any answers; I can only attest that we humans can be very despicable, and are in dire need of something redemptive!
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Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 656
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 8:41 am: | |
I guess I don't see a disparity between the revelation of God in the OT and His revelation in the NT. To be sure we receive a much greater and more complete revelation of God in the person of Jesus, but it is a complementry revelation as opposed to a contradictory revelation.
Often I think people tend to see the revelation of God in the OT as being one dimensional, by seing Him only in terms of righteousness and justice. Similarly people sometimes make Jesus one dimensional by seeing him only in terms of grace and mercy.
In fact, the revelation of God in the OT shows Him to be a God of righteousness AND justice AND grace AND mercy AND love.
All one has to do is see God's long suffering mercy and love for Israel to see that the revelation of God in the OT is not one dimensional.
God reveals Himself in the Person of Jesus in the NT and we again see that Jesus is the same God, full of righteousness AND justice AND grace AND mercy AND love.
All one has to do is consider what Jesus had to say about the wicked and about Hell to see that He was not one dimensional.
In short, God is all of these things by His very nature. It is who and what He is. It is not "either/or/but", it is a resounding "And". God by His very nature IS love, and He IS grace, and He IS Mercy, and He also IS justice, and He also IS righteousness.
None of these attributes of God can be denied without creating a god of our own design. All of these attributes of God are demonstrated in both testaments.
One could come up with a lists of God's righteous and just judgments against people in both the OT and the NT. One could also come up with a list of merciful and loving acts by God in both the OT and the NT. It is wrong to focus on one-sided lists because such one dimensional lists do not convey the truth of God as both a fully loving God and a fully just God.
Chris |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 742
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 10:00 am: | |
We studied the life of David last year at church, and the thing we brought away from it each week was that David did awful things sometimes, yet was called a man after God's own heart. As you point out, Weimarred, look at all David did, yet God still used him and forgave him. What can you or I possibly do that can turn us from the love of God or his forgiveness? Isn't that a God of love and grace and mercy that still uses sinners such as David?
I'm sure glad all my sins aren't documented in a book for all to see. |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1449
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 1:37 pm: | |
Chris, thank you for stating so well the fact that God is eternally just and merciful, loving and intolerant of sin, forgiving and ultimately punishing of those who reject His forgiveness.
David was despicable, but, as Melissa says, the message to us is that we are ALL like that in some way or another. OUr despicable sinfulness isn't what deternmines whether or not God will save us and use us for His glory. It's all about Jesus. Because of Him, all of us can be counted righteous as David was.
Colleen |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1084
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 7:40 pm: | |
When my son was small, I read him the Bible stories, from the Bible. I think he was about 7-8 when I read him the story of David and Bathsheba. My dear son listened to the story and when I was finished he said, "The Bible is full of stories of human beings". That was so profound I could not answer him.
Thank you God for Jesus and for the example of David, who was a man after God's own heart. You are awesome.
Diana |
Bob
Registered user
Username: Bob
Post Number: 72
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Monday, February 21, 2005 - 8:17 pm: | |
Good points, Chris. We look back on the severe justice of God as it is described in the O.T. But in fairness, we must also look forward to the portrayal of Jesus Christ in the Book of Revelation, when He will return to earth clothed for war against everything sinful, and smiting with terrible destruction all the nations who have opposed His reign.
If we look at everything that is recorded in Scripture, we see that BOTH Testaments give a balanced picture of the mercy and justice of God the Father and of Jesus Christ. |
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