| Author |
Message |
Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw
Post Number: 305
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 7:50 am: |     |
Campolo sounds like a bad egg. Always "sunny side up" and "over easy" when it comes to endorsing SDA doctrines. |
Bobalou
Registered user
Username: Bobalou
Post Number: 6
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 8:42 am: | |
You all have quoted some convincing scripture and given very good comments . Funny(really not funny) how we have glossed over some scripture because it didn't fit into our pre-conceived ideas. SDA's will have to answer for a lot of miss information. It is also our own fault for not questioning, but merely taking for granted what the hierarchy and our peers teach.
My searching on the subject has been hit and miss. I like your thought, Chris, about reading the entire Gospel and then I will be sure of knowing what Jesus is teaching me.
Thanks everyone. boB |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 649
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 8:43 am: | |
Campolo has been getting closer and closer to a form of universalism over the years. In my opinion, universalism is more driven by who we think God should be (making a god of our own design), than it is by who the Scripture says God is. The arguments I've heard from universalist are very seldom made from a scriptural perspective. They are almost always made based upon a human-philosophy that starts out, "A truly loving God would......". This is the finite creature trying to redefine the infinite creator.
Chris |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1517
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 8:57 am: | |
I have never heard of Tony C. until now. Now I will notice him as his name is in my mind. I do like Jim Wallis who is the editor of Sojourner's, my favorite Christian magazine. The Christian bookstores generally don't carry Sojourner's, too far left. However, Boarder's carries it. You also can read it on www.sojo.com |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1518
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 9:03 am: | |
I was wrong. It's www.sojo.net |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1423
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 9:03 am: | |
Dennis and Chris, I really appreciated your clear statements about hell and the fact that we must see the true picture of God which Jesus presented.
Chris, my experience with the issue of hell has been similar to yours. As I have studied the New Testament including the gospels, the picture of God that is emerging is quite a different picture than I was taught in Adventism. God is much bigger, more powerful, and more to be feared than we were ever taught. As an Adventist, I was taught to fear Satan, but Jesus and God were eternally loving and forgiving. Any overarching fear we had was never to be directed toward God's power, only Satan's.
I was stunned, a while back, when I really "saw" Matthew 10:28. I had heard this text many times and even read it, but one day I really saw it: "Do not be afraid of those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell."
That verse is not talking about Satan destroying people in hell, as I had always interpreted it as an Adventist. It is talking about God. We are not to fear Satan or his agents who can merely kill our bodies. God is the only one who can destroy both our bodies and our souls in hell.
He is all-powerful, all-knowing, sovereign, and Lord of life, of death, of heaven, and of hell. There is nothing over which He does not have ultimate command.
God is not like we are. God is God, and all our reverence and fear and worship and honor are to be directed toward Him. He is faithful and just and merciful, and He loves us.
Colleen |
Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 483
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 9:20 am: | |
Speaking of hell...my SDA friend once told me she sincerely hoped the SDA had it right about hell because she found it comforting that if she didn't make it to heaven she would merely cease to exist. (I guess she found it comforting that there was no pain involved.)
Sad. |
Pheeki
Registered user
Username: Pheeki
Post Number: 484
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 9:29 am: | |
We just had a discussion on CARM about the supposed "parable" of Lazarus. If anyone is interested in reading it. (Belt is our old friend Seeker-a former poster here).
http://new.carmforums.org/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=121&topic_id=38353&mesg_id=&page=&mode=full#38874 |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 352
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 9:57 am: | |
And that is why the doctrine of annihilation is a dangerous heresy. People don't even really care if they make it to heaven or not. There is no real consequence for rejecting Jesus. But Jesus Himself says, "whoever blasphemes against the Holy Spirit never has forgiveness, but is guilty of an eternal sin" (Mark 2:29 NASB.)
An eternal sin would require eternal punishment, as Dennis quoted in Matthew 25:46.
It is such a horrible sin to reject Jesus, that it is an eternal sin which requires eternal punishment. That gives one something to think about.
Something was mentioned about the wicked having eternal life and the wages of sin being death. But we have to look at how the Bible defines things. The Bible says that it is NOT eternal life, but eternal death. Death is separation. Eternal death in hell is eternal separation from God. Jesus was able to experience separation from God, thus He experienced the punishment due us (without burning in hell forever). He is all-powerful and outside time, so somehow He was able to suffer the punishment for us--no need to speculate about how He accomplished this for with God nothing is impossible.
The Bible clearly says that the Lake of Fire (Hell, Gehenna) is the second death--not annihilation!
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." (Revelation 20:14-15 NASB.)
"But for the cowardly and unbelieving and abominable and murderers and immoral persons and sorcerers and idolaters and all liars, their part will be in the lake that burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death." (Revelation 21:8 NASB.)
People like to say that God is a merciful God and therefore wouldn't torment people in hell forever. But that argument is missing something: The wicked don't get mercy! The Bible says that God's wrath is poured out on them "without mixture" (KJV)--it's not mixed with mercy!
This is the "Third Angel's Message" straight from the Bible!
"Then another angel, a third one, followed them, saying with a loud voice, 'If anyone worships the beast and his image, and receives a mark on his forehead or on his hand,
10he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb.
11And the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever; they have no rest day and night, those who worship the beast and his image, and whoever receives the mark of his name.'" (Revelation 14:9-11 NASB.)
As you see the 3rd Angel's Message has NOTHING to do with Sunday-keeping but is all about eternal hellfire!
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever." (Revelaiton 20:10 NASB.)
If you look at the context, you will notice that the beast and the false prophet had already been in the Lake of Fire for 1,000 years and had not been burned up or annihilated yet!
Also, it is interesting to note that SDAs say that "forever and ever" in this verse does not mean "forever and ever" but just a couple chapters later (22:5) when it says that we "will reign forever and ever" they all the sudden think it does mean "forever and ever" there! Hmmm... Nice exegesis, eh? ;-) As others have pointed out if we have eternal life, those who reject Jesus must have eternal death. If we reign forever and ever, those who reject Jesus must be tormented forever and ever. There is just no way around it. If hell is not eternal, then neither is heaven.
Hope this helps.
Jeremy |
Seekr777
Registered user
Username: Seekr777
Post Number: 48
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 11:56 am: | |
Susan_2,
It is great to find someone else blessed by Sojourner's and the message found there. I don't read it all the time but when I'm at Borders I often buy a copy of it. I think I've read it for more than 30+ years in all.
Please get my phone number or email from Colleen and get in contact with me if your in the area.
Richard |
Seekr777
Registered user
Username: Seekr777
Post Number: 49
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 12:00 pm: | |
"There is no real consequence for rejecting Jesus."
I'm sorry but the very thought of not being able to live eternally with Jesus is so aweful to me. It is hard to imagine and I look forward to that in the future.
What consequence could be worse?
Richard |
Pw
Registered user
Username: Pw
Post Number: 308
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 12:30 pm: | |
I actually had a book by TC about 15 years ago called "Ten Hot Potatoes Christians Are Afraid To Touch". It was really nothing dynamic so I tossed it out, I don't even recall what he wrote about. That's how good it was. |
Bob
Registered user
Username: Bob
Post Number: 57
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 1:01 pm: | |
I don't share some of Campolo's views, but not everything he has written or spoken about is trash! I have benefited from some of his material.
|
Dd
Registered user
Username: Dd
Post Number: 343
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 1:10 pm: | |
I agree Bob. Though "Speaking My Mind" had things I did not agree with it also had some good food for thought. The beauty of being in God's Word is the knowledge God gives me to decipher other's thoughts and opinions. It is such a blessing and a freedom I never experienced as a SDA. |
Tdf
Registered user
Username: Tdf
Post Number: 43
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 1:25 pm: | |
Bob and Dd,
I was happy to read your posts. I have read very little of Campolo's works, but from what I've read I've found good and bad. As Adventists we were taught to think of everything as being black and white, good and bad, righteous or evil. I'm learning that the Christian walk rarely fits so neatly into these little boxes. Sometimes, things aren't black and white--they're grey. If you're anything like me, that can be scary. Especially when you come from a system that tells you that nearly everything is black and white. It is possible that someone like Campolo can have both good and bad to offer and, therefore, he doesn't fit neatly into one box or the other.
tdf |
Bob
Registered user
Username: Bob
Post Number: 59
Registered: 7-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 1:56 pm: | |
Tdf, I think part of what we have to gradually learn as we "get over" our past obsession with Adventism is moderation. Let's face it - we used to be cultists, and something in our psychological makeup accepted that mindset as "normal" for many years. Obsession and fanaticism are the exact opposites of moderation. Thus, it is not surprising that it would take each of us some time to learn and become comfortable with "moderation," even in how we evaluate what we read and hear. |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1522
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 3:25 pm: | |
Richard, Several years ago I went to LA and heard Rev. Jim Wallis speek. It was one of the highlights in my quest to listen to speekers that present the word of God. |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 316
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 16, 2005 - 6:41 pm: | |
Susan,
Interestingly, Sojourner's magazine had its roots in the early 1970s at Trinity Evangelical Divinity School which is the seminary for about 1,300 autonomous churches affiliated with the Evangelical Free Church of America (www.efca.org).
Dennis J. Fischer |
Arm
Registered user
Username: Arm
Post Number: 2
Registered: 2-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 03, 2005 - 11:01 am: | |
Follow this link to more information about the Sojourner magazine founder http://www.discoverthenetwork.org/individualProfile.asp?indid=1833 |
