| Author |
Message |
Freeatlast
Registered user
Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 316
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 2:49 pm: |     |
I am not aware of any Scripture that directly address the concept, and I expect that you will not find any either. The "best" explanation I have ever heard is that Jesus said it would be as it was in the days of Noah just prior to His return and since Noah and his family entered the ark before the rain started that proves a close of probation before salvation is delivered. From this is extrapolated a pre-advent "close of probation".
Also, the whole concept of "probation" is an SDA creation. The doctrine that man got a second chance to keep God's laws because of Christ's death is the heart of the gospel of SDAism, which is really no gospel at all.
I am aware of no other church that teaches a close of probation prior to the second advent of Christ. |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 468
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 2:53 pm: | |
Richard, no, certainly not the way Ellen/SDAism has it. According to Ellen, "probation" means that God is giving us a second chance (Adam had the first), to see if we can be good and if God can "trust" us with eternal life.
The word probation is not found in the Bible. I believe the idea of a "probabtion" originated with Joseph Smith/Mormonism. It is definitely not Biblical.
Jeremy |
Freeatlast
Registered user
Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 317
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 2:58 pm: | |
I've also heard explanations extrapolated from the 10 virgins in Matthew 25. Because the 5 who were wise went in with the bridegroom and the 5 who were foolish were left outside, this proves that the bridegroom selects the "wise" virgins and leaves the "foolish" virgins outside the Kingdom before the door is shut.
See, if you twist enough Scripture out of context, then read into it what you want, you can support virtually any doctrine you dream up.
I'm sick to my stomach that I used to swallow this stuff whole. |
Freeatlast
Registered user
Username: Freeatlast
Post Number: 318
Registered: 5-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 3:00 pm: | |
One more post just for good measure...LOL
In fact, the uniquely SDA term "Midnight Cry" comes directly from their spin on the parable of the 10 virgins.
Thanks for the background on the origin of the term "probation" Jeremy! |
Tisha
Registered user
Username: Tisha
Post Number: 11
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 3:39 pm: | |
Hi all, I hope I didn't confuse you with the "close of probation" term. I put it in quotes meaning it was a SDA term that I heard a lot during my youth, not one that I use today.
Freeatlast, I do remember now something about Hiram Edson's vision! I guess I just pinned it on EGW due to her status as "prophet"!
What a twisted mess it all is - no wonder I couldn't keep it all straight in school. I went all the way from 1st grade at the White Memorial School to college at La Sierra and Loma Linda Univ. You'd think with all those years of Bible classes I would have it memorized. Really, I just sort of tuned it all out because it was so confusing! |
Hoytster
Registered user
Username: Hoytster
Post Number: 118
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 3:51 pm: | |
This has come up before, but in a slightly different way. My question: Is Foreverscout in danger of being tainted with Adventism, if she tries to engage him on SDA turf?
I am just now getting past reading the Bible to form anti-SDA arguments, which is not what it should be about. I want to feel closer to the Holy Spirit when I read my Bible. So I have decided to avoid discussing religion with the SDAs in my life.
I like Chris's approach, too: praise Jesus! When they bring up the commandments (esp. the 4th, always) go straight back to Jesus. When the health message comes up, ... Jesus!
Best of luck, Foreverscout! You seem to have your head on right. Keep loving your brother, and Jesus, and maybe your bro will catch on someday.
- Hoytster |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1721
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 3:55 pm: | |
One Sunday after church while everyone was sitting around in the social hall visiting someone said something to the one other former SDA in the congregation wanting to know how the SDA church believed on the topic being discussed. The man said that the SDA's have a doctrine called The Investagitive Judgement and he went on to very acurately explain the IJ to the folks at our table. The folks at the table were totally confused and someone then asked him some more questions about SDA pecularities. Finily out of exasperation the man just told this table full of old Lutherans that it is the Seventh-day Adventist version of purgertary, that you aren't really in heaven yet but you're not in hell either and that is the time God is deciding if He wans you in heaven with Him or if He want to send you to hell. Sevral people at the table know I was raised SDA so they asked me if he was explaining it right. I assured them he was. Then they all started reciting texts like ,"Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and know that you are saved", those sorts of texts and wanting to know how the SDA's explain them. Both him and me told the group it is very complicated and if they want further info we'll explain it another time. No one has asked again. Someone did say that he Gosple should be easy enough for a child to understand and what we were expaining sounded very complicated. |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 1246
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 5:38 pm: | |
Tisha,
You sound like me. I went to the Bellflower SDA grade school, Lynwood Academy, spent the first year of college in Compton JC, La Sierra College for 2 years and then LLU for 2 years. I got good grades in the Bible classes, but immediately forgot all the strange stuff. It scared me. Thank God, He had me forget it. I remember feeling guilty that I could not give Bible lessons about the IJ. But God knew what was best for me and I am so thankful. God you are awesome.
Diana |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 342
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 6:40 pm: | |
THE ONE SOUL AUDIENCE
Although Jesus ministered to large and small groups, he more frequently ministered to a one-soul audience. There is a tremendous potential in having a heart to heart chat with someone about their eternal destiny. As Billy Graham once said, "The men who followed Him were unique in their generation. They turned the world upside down because their hearts had been turned right side up. The world has never been the same." This one-soul audience manner, that Jesus greatly loved, is ideal for many reasons. Most decisions for Christ continue to be made with a one-soul audience. Indeed, salvation is a very personal matter.
This classic, time-proven, one-on-one methodology can include sharing the printed page with virtually anyone. After all, it works great for Jehovah's Witnesses. Sharing the printed page (books, tracts, magazines, etc.) with our Adventist friends and relatives will usually be far more productive than confronting them verbally. Soul-winning literature allows the reader to make an informed, private decision in the comfort of his own home. Thus, the reading environment is usually devoid of personality conflicts and/or distractions. Remember that Adventists, of all people, don't like to be found wrong about anything. If you have to be confronted with the true facts then being alone would help to save face. Interestingly, in my personal journey with Christ, I was always alone with the facts whenever I discovered a new facet of the Christian faith. After spending fifty years in the cultic grip of Adventism, God apparently felt that I needed some personal tutoring for slow learners.
Furthermore, sharing our personal testimony with others is a highly effective method of evangelism as well. It is most difficult to attack someone's personal testimony and/or experience. Nobody else ever had your unique experience. It rightfully is an intrinsic part of you. As social beings, we yearn to learn what makes others happy and successful. Most of what we learn in life we learn from others. Sharing our walk with others will enrich and empower us more than our intended audience could ever experience. Being a Christ-follower is far too exciting to keep as a secret. We are like beggars telling others where we found food. Consequently, ALL Christians are ministers, missionaries, and theologians in the truest sense. Amazingly, we have direct access to the throne of our prayer-answering God.
In awe of His grace,
Dennis J. Fischer |
Tracey
Registered user
Username: Tracey
Post Number: 308
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 7:01 pm: | |
Quick comment...
C said his scriptures for backing his belief that the ceremonial laws were still in effect were found in Hebrews. God Bless Him. I told him that book was specifically written to the Hebrew people,(Jews) that couldn't let go of the Law of Moses and its ceremonial practices. He was like oh. Poor thing.
I explained that there are other books that are specifically geared to gentiles and jews and that we can learn from all of them, but it's important to know to whom a book was written.
|
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1723
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 8:17 pm: | |
Dennis J., thank-you for sharing what you wrote above. Much of what you wrote is so true in my experience. About SDA's-often it seems to me that the SDA's I know when discussing anything having to do with their religion are only "intelligical Christians". Do you know what I mean? What I am trying to say is that the SDA's I know can jump from this text over to that text and then link those texts with another halftext in a way different part of the Bible and then make an entire doctrine on what they just pieced tegether. There's no fire in their souls, no feeling, like as if the Holy Spirit doesn't enter into their religion. It is totally intellegicial. I will focus on Jesus, Penticost, etc. The SDA's want to link texts together about Sabbath and what not to eat. Where's the emotion? The zeal for Christ? |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1650
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, March 22, 2005 - 9:04 pm: | |
Great post, Dennis. Thanks.
Colleen |
Tracey
Registered user
Username: Tracey
Post Number: 309
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 5:20 am: | |
Susan,
You said it so true. The only zeal that I see in C, is that he truly believes now that he will go to heaven through Christ. He has an assurance there from my witnessing. But no fire for Jesus, no witnessing.. All intellect.
Personally, if I hadn't experienced something powerful like the HS in my life, I am pretty positive I wouldn't be a Christian. Just reading about God isn't enough and wouldn't have been enough to bring me to Him. It isn't radical enough! If it were just about reading and not a relationship, I would've just gone New Age or some other "feel good" message.
I agree 100% about the personal testimony Dennis spoke about.
Tracey |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 761
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 7:03 am: | |
Tracey, you bring up an interesting point in your earlier post. SDAs are generally quite dependent on the proof-text method of Biblical interpretation (i.e. pull a number of texts from various books out of their context, then string them together until they support a preconceived pretext).
Adventists usually do not study whole books of the Bible as just what they are, literature. The Bible is God inspired innerrant literature, but literature that must be considered as a whole, in context, by genera, in order to ascertain the meaning the Author intended. Imagine if we went to a High School or College English literature class and the teacher taught his class using the proof-texting method! We'd think he was nuts and we'd probably not learn very much about the books we were supposed to be studying.
Adventists frequently don't know what the main theme of a Biblical book is, what genera it is, when it was written, who it was written to, where those recipients were, or why it was written. It's very difficult to understand a book for all it's worth if you're not asking the 5 W's as you study.
SDAs really do use small parts of Hebrews to support their views. They can do so because they take those versus out of context and attempt to pair them with other versus from elsewhere. If they ever really sat down and read Hebrews from start to finish and just accepted what it said as it said it, they would see that it actually refutes many of their key doctrines such as the sanctuary doctrine, adherence to the Mosaic Law, and the dayness of the Sabbath.
Chris |
Tdf
Registered user
Username: Tdf
Post Number: 61
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 7:44 am: | |
Tisha,
Thanks for bringing up the close of probation. I haven't read alot about it on former Adventist sites. For me, the doctrine of the close of probation sparked my very first questions about EGW and Adventism. When I was a teenager, a woman named Margaret Davis from the Hartland Institute came to our home chuch and gave a presentation entitled "What must I DO to inherit eternal life." Her presentation included an unashamed presentation of perfectionism. She clearly indicated that, if we aren't perfect before the close of probation, we won't enter the kingdom of Heaven. I was VERY young at the time, but red flags were flying high in my head. It took many years of study to gain the courage to act on my questions. I kept reading texts such as "Lo, I am with you always, even unto the end of the world" (Matt. 28:20); "I will not leave you comfortless" (John 14:18); "I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee" (Hebrews 13:5) and "Therefore He is able to save completely those who come to God through Him, because He ALWAYS lives to intercede for them." (Hebrews 7:25). From my perspective, it seemed that the close of probation (and the IJ) was at the heart of the doctrine of perfectionism.
tdf
|
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 74
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 8:20 am: | |
Chris, You are right on with your post on SDA interpretation of scripture. I just got through reviewing Hebrews again, and I especially noticed Hebrews 10:10-13, where it says that Christ made one sacrifice once for all and SAT DOWN at the right hand of God, and He waits for His enemies to become his footstool. This seems to be an airtight statement that would prevent any possibility of another ministry starting in 1844. Does Clifford Goldstein or any Adventist scholar ever try to explain how this passage could possibly be compatible with their 1844 theory? Stan |
Belvalew
Registered user
Username: Belvalew
Post Number: 240
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 9:59 am: | |
Just an observation, but I've noticed most Adventists are more interested in defending their uniqueness than in searching for truth. My recent experiences dialoguing with Adventists at R/S has been a real eye-opener. You can quote clear biblical texts on a topic, but if what those texts are saying is in opposition to a cherished belief, they go blind. I'm sure most Adventists reading Hebrews will say to themselves, "Well, it says here that Jesus sat down by the Father in the time of the author of Hebrews. He must have been resting up to stand up again in 1844." They don't want to see the completed work of the Saviour. It would foul the water for them, I guess.
I spent most of my SDA life living with a sort of cognitive dissonance, but as someone has already said, I think, I was unwilling to buck the tide of Adventist reasoning to really look at what I myself truly believed until about 15 years ago. Then it hit me, wham, right in my cognitive dissonance, and my whole house of SDA cards collapsed around me. I'm one of those SDA's who tried to read my bible through once a year, did well until I got to the begets, and gave up. About 25 years ago I decided to start in the New Testament, then finish in the Old, and I kept getting confused. I knew what "the remnant church" taught, but the things I was reading, particularly in the epistles, didn't jive. No matter, I was getting married and starting to raise a family then, so I got a little distracted for a while. I've already told you on here that the last straw for me was IJ, and when I tried to explain it to a co-worker, and prove it from scripture, I fell flat on my face. I had to face the fact that without the Hiram Edson story, and some empty cornfield the day after The Great Dissappointment, the whole thing couldn't fly. I was lost for a while until I found Dale Ratzlaff's books. The rest is history for me.
All of the other kookie Adventist doctrines dissolve once you've removed that central post, IJ, from the puzzle. You can then begin to question why Adventist beliefs are so different from mainstream Christianity. The last to go is usually the Sabbath element. Let me tell you, though, once I got it that Jesus is Sabbath, and how the Sabbath day was merely was a shadow, a real sense of peace settled over my heart. I could never go back to being a meek little SDA.
It took a little over ten years for me to process out, starting with a complete reading of the New Testament, then coming to grips with IJ and Sabbath. The other issues are minor after you have dealt with those two major issues.
I still pray for the enlightenment of every inquiring SDA mind. That's what Jesus wants to, so we know we are praying the will of God.
Give me Jesus
Belva |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 1656
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 10:42 am: | |
So true, Chris, about how SDAs study the Bible. I think the ADventist way of teaching proof texts is one of the biggest internal deceptions of all. I know I believed I was well-acquainted with the Bible even as I transitioned out, but I realized with a jolt, as we became involved in Bible study at Trinity church, that I knew texts, but I had not clue about the Bible as a whole.
God redeems even the skewed Adventist method of teaching the Bible, though--He helped me begin to see my proof-texts meant new things, and as I studied, the Holy Spirit has helped me begin to see how parts of the Bible related to each other.
But inside Adventism, the proof-texts and Bible stories give people a sense of being Biblically literate to a superior degree. It's just another deception--that is invisible until one experiences the veil being removed in Jesus.
Colleen |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1726
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 1:03 pm: | |
Tracey, I want to tell you a story about my friend Jesus (pronounced-Heasus). What you said about reading about God made me think to share with you his story. He is in his late 40's. He was born in a village way down in Youkatan. He is Mayan. He did not have formal schooling in his Indian village. He got to play and have fun all day every day and take care of the days needs for food etc. His mother told him she traveled to the city after he was born and had him baptzed a Christian. Then she took him again to the city when he was aound seven to have him confirmed. That was the entire extent of formal religion until he grew up and realized he needed religion. His family immagrated to the US when he was 12. He had to go to school. Hated it. That didn't last long. He stopped going by age 15. But, he told me he always wanted a relatinship with God. So, he did what he thought any intelligent person would do. He went to the county library and went deep into and intense study of the various worlds religions. In fact he is very scholary on the various religions. After studying Christianty, Hinduisn, Buddhistism, Moslem and some others that I can't recall he decided to be Hindu because it makes the most sense. So, yeah, I have a friend who chose his religion by reading about God. As a side note, he was at my house one day when a slew of my SDA kin showed up. Thy get along great. They can agree on how disguesting meat is and how superior an all natral diet is. My friend though will eat only raw foods and will drink only water. He won't even stepon the bugs. So, yeah, some people do choose a religion by reading about God. |
Tracey
Registered user
Username: Tracey
Post Number: 318
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 5:11 pm: | |
Wow. I needed the radical HS to impact me to the Lord. Just curious, what has he said to you about Jesus? |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 770
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 5:26 pm: | |
Susan, it should be noted that your friend still hasn't come to God. I do not say this to be mean-spirited, but because it is crucially important to understand that merely practicing a religion does not bridge the gap between God and man. Only Christ Jesus can do that. Worshiping the demon gods of Hinduism does not bring peace with God or salvation of any sort.
quote:Jesus said* to him, "I am the way, and the truth, and the life; no one comes to the Father but through Me.
John 14:6 (NASB)
Chris
|
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1727
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 8:01 pm: | |
Yeah, Chris, I'm in total agreement with you on this. The reason I shared my story about my friend, Jesus is because of the similiarity between how he chose his religion and the many SDA's I know who have what I call "an intellictual religion". We've discussed this topic on other threads on this forum but I will once again say it. I refer to SDA'ism as "an intelligical religion" because so often the SDA's I know are visibly uncomfortable when the dicussion gets to the personal level of Jesus and the Holy Spirit. I have experienced this many times with the SDA's in my life. The conversation will be about this, that, or something else and the SDA's will somehow put a religious commotation to the topic being discussed. Usually the weekly Sabbath or health but sometimes their other unique interperpations on various subjects. Then I will say something asbout Jesus or the Holy Spirit's take on the issue being discussed and I just don't know why but so often the SDA's get upset and either change the subject or just walk away. My friend, he always wanted a religion, a belief in something greater than himself. After much intense study he chose Hinduism. He's even made several pilgramages to India with the intent of studying in the Hindu temples to gain great enlightenment. But, every time he goes to India he gets intestional parasites, ends up in the hospital and has to come back to the USA. So, he's decided not to go to India anymore. He married a woman who is Jewish by race and her and her Jewish parents have all converted to Hare Krishna. He now has three children, all named after different Hindu gods. He told me the Hindu makes the most sense because in the Hindu belief you get to keep being reincarnated until "you finily get it right" and because if there isn't a god for a particular thing you need a god for you can just make one up, give your new god a name and then have a new god. He made up a god for the microwave at the house. He did a research on the gods and couldn't find a god assigned to just microwaves so he made up a microwave god. It's very interesting that when the SDA missionaries go to India their mode of attack to to stress to the Hindus that they are also vegetarian. I read an article about this around a year ago in the Review. It seemed really decietful as the way the SDA's lure the Hindu's is with the commanality of being vegetarian and then after a relatioship has been established and trust has been formed between them, then the SDA's spring the SDA stuff on them. Very similiar to the Revelation Seminars here in the US, don't you think? |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 776
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 8:07 pm: | |
quote:He did a research on the gods and couldn't find a god assigned to just microwaves so he made up a microwave god.
Ha! That gave me a chuckle. Thanks Susan!
Chris |
Susan_2
Registered user
Username: Susan_2
Post Number: 1729
Registered: 11-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 23, 2005 - 8:59 pm: | |
Chris, now I'm sitting here cracking up that you foud that funny. I was serious. But then thinking about it, how serious can we really take it that someone researches the gods and finds no god assigned to microwaves so makes up a microwave god? I do not know anything at all about Greek mythology but in the Greek mythology aren't there gods for just about everything immaginable? How would that be any different than my friend making up a microwave god? Back in the Greek mythology days the gods they made up were for what they knew about. Nowdays we have lots of modern inventions and I guess my friend thinks each invention needs a god, especially microwaves. Thanks, Chris for giving me a big laugh. |
Foreverscout
Registered user
Username: Foreverscout
Post Number: 9
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 24, 2005 - 2:11 pm: | |
You are all so helpful, you are confirming for me so many things.
**** is indeed coming at this intellectually. Somtimes it seems to me that he is emotionally stunted in his growth and I believe this may be due to the difficulties my parents had in parenting. They loved us tremendously and did the best they could I know. **** suffered I'm sure, we reacted to this in very different ways. I think the only child unscathed was my sister, maybe because of her very mild temperment, or maybe she's just stronger, or maybe because she wasn't born until much later in my parent's lives.
Hoytster, I wondered at that myself. I can see how easy it would be to be drawn in, sometimes something will appear to make sense. Always, always, I check it out in my Bible. I ask God to keep me safe and lead me only in HIS ways of truth. Do any of you have a "QUEST Study Bible" NIV ? I have found it to be an invaluable tool.
Helovesme2,
>But God promises to work all things out for good, not for easy - so not to worry! Praying with you for wisdom to know when to speak up, what to speak, and when to keep quiet.<
One of these I write on my heart, the other I have already chosen to practice with ****.
I can't begin to tell what a blessing you all are being to me. Keep the information coming. Knowlege is a good thing to have, important when it is used wisely and with Love for the right reasons.
God, Make us Salt & Light!
Foreverscout
|
|
