| Author |
Message |
Patriar
Registered user
Username: Patriar
Post Number: 139
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, August 22, 2005 - 11:33 pm: |     |
Diana:
I laughed out loud!!!
Patria |
Carol_2
Registered user
Username: Carol_2
Post Number: 356
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, August 23, 2005 - 6:02 pm: | |
I was at Walmart this evening, looking through the books, and for the first time I saw some E.G. White books. Really shocked me. One I was looking at I accidentally dropped behind the rack when I went to put it back....fell between two racks. Darn.
Found two more, the ones with "Passion" in the title....saw inside the front cover where you can write to learn more......one of the bullet points was the question if one needs to work on perfecting their character. I kind of figured I knew what the answer to that one would be! I wanted to put more books back on the same rack where I found the first, but I am a wuss! |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2454
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 10:25 am: | |
Carol, I know how you feel. I remember finding those "passion" books at a local Christian bookstore after the movie came out.They were at the checkout counter and were free. I was horrified and told the clerk they were SDA and shouldn't be there--she looked at me a bit as if I had two heads but didn't say anything.
Then I remembered that the person who coordinates their homeschool materials is still an SDA, although not a typical one. When I went back to the store a week or so later, though, the books were gone for whatever reason. (Maybe they'd all been taken...)
I surely understand the frustration.
Colleen |
Heretic
Registered user
Username: Heretic
Post Number: 169
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 4:03 pm: | |
This past weekend we were staying with some arch-Adventist friends who have MANY of Ellen White's writings in their library. Actually, it makes up most of the library. Anyhow, I perused some of her ìnon-redî books very superficially and even using this method was struck by many of the statements made and the general sternness of the tone of many of these books. Iím flabbergasted that more red flags arenít raised by more of the ìmiddle of the roadî SDAís. Here are just a couple of examples that I came across:
This one was a counsel and gifts for Christmas. Itís another example of the shameless self-promotion as demonstrated on other occasions. (Bolded items other than section headings are mine):
quote:Books for Children Are Recommended.--There are many who have not books and publications upon present truth. Here is a large field where money can be safely invested. There are large numbers of little ones who should be supplied with reading. The Sunshine Series, Golden Grains Series, Poems, Sabbath Readings, [NOTE: REFERENCE IS MADE IN THIS ARTICLE TO NONCURRENT PUBLICATIONS. AS THE PRINCIPLES SET FORTH IN THIS CONNECTION ARE APPLICABLE TODAY, THESE SPECIFIC REFERENCES ARE LEFT IN THE ARTICLE.] etc., are all precious books and may be introduced safely into every family. The many trifles usually spent on candies and useless toys may be treasured up with which to buy these volumes. . . .
Let those who wish to make valuable presents to their children, grandchildren, nephews, and nieces procure for them the children's books mentioned above. For young people the Life of Joseph Bates is a treasure; also the three volumes of The Spirit of Prophecy. [NOTE: EARLY E. G. WHITE BOOKS PRECEDING THE PRESENT "CONFLICT OF THE AGES SERIES."] These volumes should be placed in every family in the land. God is giving light from heaven, and not a family should be without it.
Let the presents you shall make be of that order which will shed beams of light upon the pathway to heaven. (Adventist Home, p. 479)
Here's another gem:
quote:Lustful Propensities Are Inherited.--Parents do not generally suspect that their children understand anything about this vice. In very many cases the parents are the real sinners. They have abused their marriage privileges and by indulgence have strengthened their animal passions. And as these have strengthened, the moral and intellectual faculties have become weak. The spiritual has been overborne by the brutish. Children are born with the animal propensities largely developed, the parents' own stamp of character having been given to them. . . . Children born to these parents will almost invariably take naturally to the disgusting habits of secret vice. . . . The sins of the parents will be visited upon their children, because the parents have given them the stamp of their own lustful propensities. (Child Guidance, p. 442)
Heretic
(Message edited by Heretic on August 24, 2005) |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2456
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 4:14 pm: | |
Oh, my goodness, Heretic--you're right. How could intelligent, normal people read these things and not have a glimmer of discomfort?
Perhaps they did, but the rationalization kicked in. I believe it's called "brainwashing" in other circles.
Now I understand why I grew up with the sense that the children's books at Campmeeting were the ultimate and most important gift. Of course, I loved to read, but there was an overriding sense of having the RIGHT books available.
That second quote, about the inherited vice, reminds me again that from my distant armchair view of things, I suspect Ellen herself was a victim of some sort of incest or abuse. Her twisted take on marital intimacy, her fixation on "self-abuse", her repeated warnings against eating or behaving in ways that arouse the "animal passions" smack (to my lay person's view) of someone who was imprinted with an aversion at an early age.
Something's not right there--
Colleen |
Heretic
Registered user
Username: Heretic
Post Number: 170
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 4:21 pm: | |
Here is one more from Child Guidance. I've seen it before in another place or two, but it still blew me away. How can some people think this judgmental attitude is okay?
quote:One Who Requested Prayer for Healing.--My husband and I once attended a meeting where our sympathies were enlisted for a brother who was a great sufferer with the phthisic. He was pale and emaciated. He requested the prayers of the people of God. He said that his family were sick, and that he had lost a child. He spoke with feeling of his bereavement. He said that he had been waiting for some time to see Brother and Sister White. He had believed that if they would pray for him, he would be healed. After the meeting closed, the brethren called our attention to the case. They said that the church was assisting them, that his wife was sick, and his child had died. The brethren had met at his house and united in praying for the afflicted family. We were much worn and had the burden of labor upon us during the meeting and wished to be excused. I had resolved not to engage in prayer for anyone, unless the Spirit of the Lord should dictate in the matter. . . .
That night we bowed in prayer and presented his case before the Lord. We entreated that we might know the will of God concerning him. All we desired was that God might be glorified. Would the Lord have us pray for this afflicted man? We left the burden with the Lord and retired to rest. In a dream the case of that man was clearly presented. His course from his childhood up was shown, and that if we should pray, the Lord would not
hear us; for he regarded iniquity in his heart. The next morning the man came for us to pray for him. We took him aside and told him we were sorry to be compelled to refuse his request. I related my dream, which he acknowledged was true. He had practiced self-abuse from his boyhood up, and he had continued the practice during his married life, but said he would try to break himself of it. This man had a long-established habit to overcome. He was in the middle age of life. His moral principles were so weak that when brought in conflict with long-established indulgence, they were overcome. . . .
Here was a man debasing himself daily and yet daring to venture into the presence of God and ask an increase of strength which he had vilely squandered, and which, if granted, he would consume upon his lust. What forbearance has God! If He should deal with man according to his corrupt ways, who could live in His sight? What if we had been less cautious and carried the case of this man before God while he was practicing iniquity, would the Lord have heard? Would He have answered? "For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee. The foolish shall not stand in thy sight; thou hatest all workers of iniquity." . . .
This is not a solitary case. Even the marriage relation was not sufficient to preserve this man from the corrupt habits of his youth. I wish I could be convinced that such cases as the one I have presented are rare, but I know they are frequent. (Child Guidance, p. 451)
So apparently we aren't supposed to pray for sinners? That would be ALL of us! Is this counsel that would come from a God who would never leave us nor forsake us? Is this even a Christian position?
Heretic
(Message edited by Heretic on August 24, 2005) |
Heretic
Registered user
Username: Heretic
Post Number: 171
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 5:11 pm: | |
Colleen, interesting observations regarding the possible root cause of Ellen's hang-ups with *whisper*...sex (*shhhhhh*). Judging by the harsh and unhappy tone of many of her writings and even the dour expressions on the faces of her and James in many-a-picture, maybe more eggs or "flesh meat" would have done them some good so as to arouse the ol' "animal passions", if you know what I mean (*wink wink*). (If I offended anyone there, I deeply apologize.) (insert smiley face here --since I can't get it to work)
In my perusal of Child Guidance there were quite a few extremely harsh things said in this regard. Here's just one more (I promise I'll stop after this) which I wanted to include because the last sentence in this excerpt is very telling of Ellen's views of grace and perfection. This is the tail end of a story she tells of a man who'd been practicing "self-abuse" until he was "a mere wreck of humanity.":
quote:...This man had gone so far he seemed to be left of God. He would go into the woods and spend days and nights in fasting and prayer that he might overcome this great sin, and then would return to his old habits. God did not hear his prayers. He asked God to do for him what had been in his power to do for himself. He had vowed to God, time and again, and had as often broken his vows and given himself up to his own corrupt lust, until God had left him to work his own ruin. He has since died. He was a self-murderer. The purity of heaven will never be marred with his society. (p.452)
What about people who have a hard time kicking other taboos like gambling, or drinking? I suppose purity of heaven will never be "marred" by these folks, either.
Heretic
(Message edited by Heretic on August 24, 2005) |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 697
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 9:44 pm: | |
Heretic,
Thanks. I am astounded. I didn't know she could sink that low as to say something like that last quote. Praise God for the imputed righteousness of Christ! Without it I could never make it.
Stan |
Patriar
Registered user
Username: Patriar
Post Number: 144
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 9:57 pm: | |
Colleen & Heretic:
Colleen:
For what it's worth I have had the same thoughts. Although, it's hard to tell since we don't know what she actually wrote and what others doctored up for her. I think another possible scenario is traumatic brain injury. Since I am around my brother with TBI, it's fascinating to correlate the types of things he says and does, with patterns in her writings. For example: For years, he perseverated (spoke of over and over in every single conversation) an old girlfriend. Then suddenly, she was gone from his conversation. It seems that Ellen did that type of thing as well. She would focus in on something and then wham, she would hop to another soap box and the intial aversion would be altogether forgotten. In fact, I believe that's why she so often contradicted herself. So what do you think...honorary psychiatry degree? 
Heretic:
My husband was walking by the study when I burst out in a guffaw...nearly scared him witless! I guess we might as well laugh about it as to cry over it, right?
Patria
Patria |
Heretic
Registered user
Username: Heretic
Post Number: 172
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 10:40 pm: | |
Okay, how do you guys get the little, yellow smiley face to appear? I never can.
Stan, I too was absolutely dumbfounded by that last statement. You can only tell she thought she was far above human debris like this guy and that, thank goodness, trash like him wouldn't be there to sicken her in heaven. I also thought it was interesting how she likened "self-abuse" to suicide ("self-murderer").
Patria...amen, sister! Yes, I choose to laugh about it, too. It's only hard to laugh when you see so many others continuing to live in this darkness and blindly accept that what she has said or been "shown" is truth.
Again, I'm amazed that such a perfunctory skimming of just a few of her books produced such stupifying results. It doesn't take long to find objectionable material, that's for sure.
Heretic |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2461
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 10:47 pm: | |
Patria, you might be right. The problem is, though, that her statements range far and wide throughout her books, from instructions for footwashing (no men and women, including married ones) to restraining children so they coudln't masturbate. Etc.
Certainly she contradicted herself a lot--definitely a possibility that brain injury played into her lack of tracking the things she forgot. Another example is that bout with reform dress. Everyone had to buy her pattern, everyone had to wear it, then suddenly, it was over. No warning, nor word--she just quit wearing it, and never said another word about it.
I don't think she was primarily moved by a brain injury, though. Her handsome guide convinces me that she had help from an evil spirit. I also believe that she had some control over what she said and did. She was together enough to copy a lot of sane people and hide her copying. She was clever enough to report dreams that gave her permission to ruin the careers of good men such as Ballanger who were threats to her.
She seemed to have a divided heart, claiming to be vegetarian when she really wasn't, etc.
I believe she was driven by a complexity of causesóbut I still suspect personal trauma or abuse played into her aversions. Her angry and rigid prohibitions against all manner of supposed excesses reminds me of something I've quoted before. I have a friend whose mother (an SDA pastor's wife) once said to her, "Never trust anyone who won't eat cheese."
People who are very restrictive with their diets often seem to use their ascetic lifestyles as self-imposed penance or cleansing for hidden habitual sin or wounding. Those who feel the most "soiled" often are the most rigid with their restrictions.
But enough of thisóI'm so thankful that God redeems everything we submit to him, wounds, sins, aversions, addictions--they are all healed by His blood when we submit them to Him.
Colleen |
Patriar
Registered user
Username: Patriar
Post Number: 145
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, August 24, 2005 - 11:02 pm: | |
Good thoughts. You know, that spirit guide thing is so creepy. I always forget about that. I suppose it is my defense mechanisms kicking in.
AMEN! I am so grateful that God heals my wounds. I DO eat cheese...in fact, it's a staple!
Patria |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1017
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 7:19 am: | |
Heretic, to get smileys , you have to type the ":" and the ")" (no quote marks) next to each other without any other characters around them (although punctuation seems to work). It took me a bit to remember to not put the "-" in for a nose!
 :p
It seems only the smile and frown work. When you preview, it will show them there if it's going to work. |
Wooliee
Registered user
Username: Wooliee
Post Number: 35
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 8:02 am: | |
Cheese is great...especially from the "Happy Cows."
Julie |
Violet
Registered user
Username: Violet
Post Number: 236
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 8:21 am: | |
The reoccuring theme seems to be that they must resist temptation by themselves. According to those quotes these people had the power to stop by themselves, but would not.
I my life I cannot take a single breath but by the grace of God.
It seems that as you take the focus off the action and put it elsewhere the temptaion looses it grip.
Maybe if she would of prayed with and for the poor guy he would of felt enabled to refocus his activites. You tell someone repeatedly they are going to fail--guess what they start to belive it and it happens.
|
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1019
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 9:10 am: | |
I love those happy cows commercials, especially about the "rainy season".... |
Patriar
Registered user
Username: Patriar
Post Number: 147
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 9:52 am: | |
Violet:
How true. You said:
"...I cannot take a single breath but by the grace of God."
I have often had the same thought. Her writings are so misrepresentative (at best) of what God has done through Jesus, our Saviour, Redeemer and SUSTAINER.
Patria |
Heretic
Registered user
Username: Heretic
Post Number: 173
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 9:58 am: | |
Thanks, Melissa!
Duh, I was trying to do the \ch command like it shows on the help page.
Heretic |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1021
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 10:19 am: | |
You mean you were reading the instructions?? :-0
|
Heretic
Registered user
Username: Heretic
Post Number: 174
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 11:01 am: | |
Violet and Patria,
Yes, EGW and, as a direct result, the SDA church seem to have really blurred the distinction between obedience and perfection. I've been told by some SDA's that "even Jesus said, 'Be ye therefore perfect'", meaning of course that WE are the ones that need to be perfect, not that Christ has already been perfect for us. We all know that the whole notion of righteousness by grace alone has been distorted.
What has become so apparent to me since leaving the church and giving it all to Christ is just how self-centered this makes you when your focus is making yourself blameless before God on your own merits. This so totally interferes with our true purpose as Christians which is to serve and minister to others. When we take the focus off of Christ and place it onto ourselves, this just isn't possible. Sure we may serve, but it comes largely from a place of building yourself up and earning favor with God rather than out of love and an overabundance of joy. Joy is stymied very effectively with a focus that's man-centered rather than Christ-centered and without an understanding of imputed righteousness. How can anything less be "good news"?
Violet, I agree with you about Ellen setting this man up for at least some level of failure and hopelessness. Think about how at the end of his rope this guy must have felt after being told by Sr. White that they would not pray for him because it would be a waste of their time, basically, because he'd sunk so low that even God wouldn't listen to prayers on his behalf. Another thought is that if she had prayed for these people she had such contempt for, she may have had more compassion and Chrisitian love for these folks. Try praying for someone and see how long you hold disdain for that person.
Heretic |
Heretic
Registered user
Username: Heretic
Post Number: 175
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 11:03 am: | |
Melissa,
Yeah, can you believe it? A guy looking for directions?!
Heretic |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1022
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 1:59 pm: | |
|
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 2463
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 3:43 pm: | |
So true, Heretic. I've also had that thought about how self-centered my attempts at perfection were. I was pretty much consumed with not measuring up (in anybody's eyes), and I certainly couldn't actually enjoy myself at any given moment. After all, if I dropped my vigilance, there'd be a failure somewhere!
You know, praying for people really puts you "in their camp" and on their level, so to speak. I'll just bet that Ellen had trouble praying for some people because their needs were so similar to her own--and she could never expose her own weaknesses to anyone, much less face them herself!
And thanks, Melissa--I'd tried to make smiley faces by following the directions, too...! Ha!
Colleen |
Melissa
Registered user
Username: Melissa
Post Number: 1024
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, August 25, 2005 - 6:33 pm: | |
Well, I just guessed because that's what works in word.... I guess microsoft is did that right!... (but I use it on a mac... )
|
Seekr777
Registered user
Username: Seekr777
Post Number: 250
Registered: 1-2003
| | Posted on Friday, August 26, 2005 - 12:15 am: | |
Melissa, I salute a smart lady and her Mac. <grin> Your right Microsoft has "allowed" it to work on the Mac as well.
Richard
rtruitt@mac.com
|
Javagirl
Registered user
Username: Javagirl
Post Number: 72
Registered: 6-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, October 01, 2005 - 2:02 pm: | |
For a short time I have access to older Review and Herald books and EGW commentaries, mostly from the 50's and 60's, some older. I have heard some have changed in newer additions. Any suggestions in which books I might check for changes?? One thing that really caught my attention was a book titled "Ellen G.White, the Human interest story, by Arthur L. WHite 1972. In particular interest was her claims that all of her letters and testimonies and written words and verbal council was inspired by God. One example, "I do not write ONE article in the paper expressing merely my own ideas. They are what God has opened before me in vision"...You might say that this communication was only a letter. Yes, it was a letter, but prompted by the spirit of God, to bring before your minds things that had been SHOWN me. Testimonies, vol5, p.67. "I recieve letters asking for advice on many strange subjects, and I advise according to the light that has been given me" MANUSCRIPT 107, 1909.
One more..."I have much to say to you, for I love your soul. But will it do you any real good? Will it simply be received as Sister Whites's opinion? THe posistion that has been taken by some of the ERRING brethren makes my words simply the expression on an opinion, and this view has been advocated and has had a leavening influence in our ranks." Letter 22, 1889 |
|
