| Author |
Message |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1125
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 6:48 pm: |     |
Jackob, for the record, I am not trying to "discredit Calvin". Rather I was validating the historocity of this event and the fact that Calvin's Geneva was run as a theocracy. Stan seemed to be suggesting that these events weren't historical and were only lies dreamed up by opponents of Calvinism. That simply isn't true. These things truly happened. I for one am willing to stand up and say it was wrong and we should learn from it. I'm okay with standing alone on this. I'm suprised that I'm standing alone, but that's okay I've done it before. I just think we should never let ideology obscure our judgment of historical wrongs. It's okay to say something is wrong if it truly is wrong. That doesn't necessarily discredit the contributions of that particular individual. We all do wrong things.....just look at David.
Chris |
Cathy2
Registered user
Username: Cathy2
Post Number: 58
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 7:19 pm: | |
I agree with Chris. Whenever a religion (of any kind, including Christianity) chains itself to the engine of secular goverance, politics and law & order, persecutions, bigotry and self-righteous, judging pride occurs; loss of individual privacy and sensible rights are lost. People rebel and the Gospel is diluted, then lost in the fight, to date.
It matters not what cultural time in history; it has occurred in all times of known history, including to date, including within Christianity, in modern times.
The original founder may or may not have had such things as their ideals to such extremes, but others in secular authority took the ball and ran with it. (I think of the Puritans) It never comes out good and no one comes out looking good in the end.
Some of my French Huegonuot(sp?) ancestors fled to Geneva for refuge. I am grateful for that. Later, they went to Holland, where there was more religious tolerance, then America. Can't blame them. They hadn't fled the Catholics just to have more of the same legislation of their inner conscious and daily lives.
I, too, have thought of David, like Chris did, while reading these posts and looking up links about Calvin and Geneva. I love David in the Bible, but he did some pretty awful actions in seducing Bathsheba and killing her husband.
We are not perfect; we are forgiven and covered by grace. More than we know.
This is a good discussion, though. It ought to make us think about how far we should go into the politics in our own age. (I do vote)
Cathy |
Cathy2
Registered user
Username: Cathy2
Post Number: 59
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 7:51 pm: | |
It is not about Calvin and Geneva, but I thought, with this link, some might be edified by it, for our own times, which are in chaos--
Here is a link, I come back to for clarity in scripture, for the division between the Civil life and the Christan's life in Christ:
http://www.issuesetc.org/resource/archives/sell2.htm
Living in Two Kingdoms: Peace or War? Order or Chaos?
by Mark E. Sell
"...The civil and the Christian life work together. They are separate but dependent on each other. The government keeps order in the world so the Church can freely proclaim sin and grace, Law [teaching] and Gospel[saving]. The Church influences the community through faithful people who work hard at living moral lives. Yet Christians know that the real witness to the community is not the individual who lives a moral life but the Christian who repents of sin and counts on the forgiveness God gives by faith in Christís work..."
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3528
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 8:10 pm: | |
Actually, Chris, I think I took the same position you take in my post above.
I see Calvin's involvement with Servitus (thank you, Chris and Jackob, for the details) to be similar to Boenhoffer's involvement in planning the failed plot on Hitler. I am not endorsing either act.
These things, however, do not discount God's powerful work through these men, and we can praise God for raising them up to speak truth into a darkened world. The criticisms we may have of Calvin do not discount the enormity of good he did in promoting Biblical expository preaching and the calrifying of the surpassing glory and sovereignty of God. These were facts that the centuries of Catholicism had all but completely obscured.
God's people are not glorified yet. All of us are growing in Him. And I agree with you, Cathy, that each of us must personally submit to God's direction regarding how far we should go into the politics of our own age. I'm not saying we shouldn't be involved; I believe God calls some to become involved. My bottom line, however, is that my one focus must be Jesus and living for Him in obedience to His Spirit and His Word. That loyalty to Jesus must preceed (and even replace) my concern with any just "cause".
I am thankful that He uses us and He "works out everything in conformity to the purpose of His will" (Ephesians 1:11).
Colleen |
Cathy2
Registered user
Username: Cathy2
Post Number: 60
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 8:38 pm: | |
The secular Kingdom calls some Christian activites 'political' or "political agendas", which we would just call loving our neighbor, being 'Jesus with skin on', 'Shoe-leather Christianity', or--I like this one--One-anothering.
They make up loaded language to incite their own political agendas for the uninformed masses, who hear and absorb their propaganda against Christians. While, for an example, Christians form refuges, clothes, food, shelter, for pregnant girls, so they won't have abortions.They make it political, we do not, in the way they mean.
Some Christians think these things are political these days, but, actually, they are just biblical and a part of Living the Gospel, which spreads it as much as a preacher preaching it.
These sort of Christian activities are not hooking Christianity up to the engine of Civil authority. They are simply living our faith, allowing Chirst in us to shine out in word, deed and love.
I see voting as keeping moral men and women in office, who will act as the OT and NT says God wills that an earthly goernment ought to, and with common sense (which the Bible and Jesus are full of). Some Christians are called to be in office for the good discernment of all.
As for the individual's theme, no one's story is finished yet, until they die or Jesus comes back.
At any rate, God is in control of it all, to his purpose, as Colleen quoted. Thank God! It's not left in Human Natures' hands!
Cathy |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1126
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 9:20 pm: | |
Thanks Colleen. Yes, I think we were taking the same position......you just said it better.....and first. 
Chris |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1410
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, March 11, 2006 - 11:47 pm: | |
Thanks all for the input. Do you think that Michael Horton's view of Calvin's Geneva is biased, Chris? I will have to research other references. But for the record I don't support theocracies as such.
Stan |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 131
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 12:21 am: | |
Chris , I agree with you. The events of history are just events of history, good or bad. I agree that what Calvin done was a bad thing, Like the historian Wylie, I profoundly regret this thing. I belive in Calvin's reformed faith, and saw that like in the case of David's sin, many use Calvin's sin to excuse their sins, especially Roman Catholic church who burned at the stake many protestants.
Like Diana said, Calvin is not inspired. About him we can rightfully say that, in his age, in his context, he was, in the church-state issue, only a man of his age. From what Wylie said, perhaps he went a step further in the problem of punishment for heresy.
I believe that, even Bonhoeffer made a bad thing trying to murder Adolf Hitler, his context was different that Calvin's. In his age, it was not a predominant idea that it is good to take the lives of state presidents. |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 620
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 11:52 am: | |
Michael Servetus was sentenced to death by burning for denying the Trinity and infant baptism. He begged for mercy and then asked to be beheaded rather than burned. Calvin was inclined to grant this, but the city fathers refused. On October 27, 1553 Michael Servetus was burned at the stake just outside Geneva.
Due to his rejection of the Trinity and eventual execution by burning for heresy, Servetus is often regarded as the first Unitarian martyr. Servetus was the first European to describe pulmonary circulation although he was not widely recognized at the time because his works were nearly all destroyed.
CREDIT: Excerpts taken from Wikipedia
Dennis Fischer
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Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1129
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 12:32 pm: | |
Stan, I don't necessarily think Horton is being biased or innaccurate. I believe there was no doubt much good that was done in Calvin's Geneva. I think you could make one of two mistakes in writing a history of Calvin's Geneva. You could choose to only mention the good things while glossing over the some of the darker things or your could choose to only dwell on bad things and attempt to minimize the good. Neither approach is balanced and neither presents the whole historical picture.
You know, that's one of the things I love about the Bible. It presents history as it was and humans as they are, warts and all. The Bible just rings with truth, rather than legend, because the characters are complex and flawed by sin. This frankness and honesty serves to reiforce the Christian message of man's fallen condition, the need for a savior, and our hope in the return of Christ.
Chris |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1413
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 3:01 pm: | |
We agree Chris.
BTW, it is so good to have you back on the forum. We may not agree on everything, but that is what makes it interesting.
Stan |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1416
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 6:17 pm: | |
Chris,
Here is one more reference on Calvin's Geneva that looks fair and balanced and also treats Servetus execution, and it isn't long, but I do like the spirit in which this is written.
www.thirdmill.org/files/english/html/ch/CH.Arnold.RMT.8.HTML
Stan |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1417
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, March 12, 2006 - 6:29 pm: | |
And here is one more article on Servetus execution that is also interesting, and this article claims that the death sentence was pronounced by the Councils of Geneva, and that Calvin had no power to impose or rescind the death sentence. This article says that John Calvin personally visited Servetus, and tried to comfort him and probably tried to bring him to faith--which may have indeed happened. It still is not justified however.
www.banneroftruth.org/pages/articles/article_detail.php?457
Stan |
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