| Author | Message | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 306 Registered: 5-2004 |
Cw, Welcome to the forum! I was raised in the church and left about 3 years ago. What a hard place you are in with your daughter. I'd just like to warn you that SDA's are sensitive to criticism. They are taught that those who criticize the message are lost and aren't seeing things appropriately. Rather than confront her with the issues and make her have to defend her boyfriend, you might try asking her to study what she's learning with you. Tell her that you want her to teach you, not whoever she's studying with. This will force her to compare what she's learning against the Bible. Always be ready with questions...and if she uses a text as a proof text, then ask her to read you the text in context (3-4 verses before and after). Being confronted with the context of the verses I'd been taught [out of context] my whole life is what opened my eyes. If you keep it light, and keep her looking for answers, it will hopefully help her to see the inconsistencies. I will keep you in my prayers! | ||
| Dd Registered user Username: Dd Post Number: 668 Registered: 7-2004 |
Hello CW, Welcome to the forum. I am sorry that you are dealing with this SDA issue. It is a very tough spot for you to be in. CW, I hope you don't mind me asking...did you raise your daughter to believe she lived under the laws of the Old Covenant? Did she grow up believing that her actions were judged according to the 10 commandments? I hope I am wording these questions right? The reason I ask is that if she was raised believing she still lives under the laws of old rather than the law of Christ set forth in the New Covenant of Jesus, she will have a hard time understanding why Adventism is false. This is how Adventists are able to "woo" individuals (especially Christians) into believing they must keep the Sabbath (the 4th commandment). I am working with a young college Christian girl who is being "witnessed" to regarding Sabbath and it is making sense to her. As a New Covenant Christian it makes perfect sense why we are no longer living under the old laws. Jesus was the fulfillment of the old laws including the Sabbath day. This is just one idea that popped out at me. There are many on this forum that will have other ideas for you. My first thought is to make sure she (and her boyfriend) read Galatians, Ephesians, Hebrews and the great gospel of John. All these books make it crystal clear that Jesus and Jesus ONLY is The Way, The Truth and The Light! I am praying for you CW as you are led by God to find the answers you need. I am also praying for your daughter that she may know and understand the simple truth of Jesus and through that truth the darkness of Adventism will be seen. In His love, Denise | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 3 Registered: 4-2006 |
Thank you all. My first day and I have already received responses from Mary, Melissa, Esther and Dd. And it's all exactly what I need. I have already gotten some of Dale Ratzlaff's books and learned a lot from them. My wife and daughter read "truths about SDA" and I gave my daughter "White Out" to read. She seems open to reading these but I don't want to be pushy and ask if she has finished them. I pray God will open the doors for discussion and in the mean time I try to educate myself. She was not raised in Legalism and she is very well versed in scripture, having been educated 100% in Christian schools and even now is taking classes at a Christian college. Her boy friend is in his freshman year at an SDA college here in California. Unfortuneately she is in love with him and wants to believe him. The good coming out of this is that I spend more time on my knees and studying God's word. I even got a Clear Word Bible from e-bay and I've been finding and marking some of the places where it and my NIV don't jibe. She says-and I know this is her boy friend's answer-that the Clear Word is just an extremist commentary and they don't actually preach from it or anything. The web site where I got my certificate is Cyberspace Ministries.com and I felt that there I was at least getting the truth as they see it. My daughter and her boy friend are trying to put spin on it. Such as "keeping the Sabbath is just our way of honoring God-it's not mandatory for salvation". That's not what I got from Cyberspace. But cyberspace thought I was truly seeking their truth. They even named an SDA church in my area to attend although they insist they are not affiliated with a denomination. In fact they never mention that they are SDA. Thanks again for your prayers. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3787 Registered: 12-2003  |
Cw, welcome to the forum! I'm glad to see you here. Your daughter and her boyfriend's answer that Sabbath is just their way of honoring God is the typical response Adventists use today when talking to other Christians about the Sabbath. If asked whether or not the Sabbath is necessary for salvation (or words to that effect), many if not most will now answer, "no". If you were to ask, however, whether they would likely LOSE their salvation if they stopped keeping the Sabbath, they would have a much harder time answering that. Adventists believe that if a person has not had the Sabbath explained to them so they "understand" it, God will not hold them responsible for it. If, however, they have understood it and then rejected it (especially if they have demonstrated they understand it by actually keeping the day), they are demonstrating that they are walking away from Christ. They will be careful, however, never to tell a non-Adventist this fact. It is also typical for Adventists to try to hide their identity from the public. I am not familiar with Cyberspace, but I know that many independent Adventist ministries publicly purport to be NOT Adventist because they are not actually supported by the church. They feel it is unnecessary to reveal that those who run the ministry are SDA and are actively seeking to proselytize others. Praying for your daughter is the most crucial part of your appraoch to her. I also endorse Esther's suggestion that you ask her to teach you. That situation will open up great opportunities for discussion. And Dd has a very insightful point: if your daughter believes the Decalogue is authoritative for Christians as a rule of faith and practice, it will be difficult to explain why the Sabbath is no longer required. Adventists actually have the better argument if one believes the 10 Commandments are for Christians today. As has previously been stated: read Galatians, Hebrews, Colossians, Romans, Ephesians. Jesus Himself has become the rule of faith and practice for the Christian, having fulfilled the law and taken its curse into Himself. He is now our Lord, high priest, Headóand the entire NT is our written word explaining how to live in the new covenant. Glad you're here! Colleen | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2462 Registered: 3-2004  |
Cw, Welcome to FAF. I cannot add to anything any one has said to you. All I can say is that I will pray for your daughter and you and your wife. Father in Heaven, You are the I AM, and you know what is happening to Cw and his daughter. What I would like to see is that the daughter and her boyfriend break up, but that is what I want because of my past. So, God do what is best for the daughter. May she see that the Adventists do not teach the Bible. May she love You so much that she will want to follow You where ever you lead her. Be with her parents and give them the words to say to her. As always God, you are awesome. Diana | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 427 Registered: 7-2004  |
Welcome CW! I wanted to comment on your daughter's statement that the Clear Word is "just an extremist commentary." It is an extremist commentary, straight from Ellen White. That was the whole point of the Clear Word, to make the Bible read as interpreted by Ellen White's writings. The way I see it, Ellen White is the whole crux of the problem with Adventism. Those who immerse themselves in her writings and completely accept them become extremists. Those who say they accept Ellen White's authority but limit exposure to her writings and pick and choose what they think is applicable, tend to have a diluted view of inspiration, which often carries over to their view of Biblical inspiration. Of course there are many other SDA's who think Ellen White has no influence on them whatsoever, since they never read her writings. But that's impossible because the church publications, the Sabbath School lessons, and most sermons are usually tailored specifically to match up with Ellen's writings. It's no mistake that one of the Fundmental Beliefs of the SDA church (#18 Gift of Prophecy) states Because I have seen ample evidence that Ellen White was a false prophet, and that her writings are directly opposed to the Gospel, it was impossible for me to remain SDA. Once one realizes that Ellen White was a false prophet, it should be easy to be very skeptical of any and all SDA doctrines - because every one of them is shaped in some way by the writings of Ellen White. If you haven't visited there yet, you will find many evidences of these problems from www.ellenwhite.org. While the SDA church tries to put their best foot forward regarding Ellen White by having many of the more acceptable sounding quotes in their current publications, it's the "extremist" groups who don't squelch anything and show so clearly how messed up Ellen White really was. | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 4 Registered: 4-2006  |
Colleen, Flying Lady and Raven, thank you. You are all an answer to prayer and are confirming many of the thoughts I have had. It is amazing how little the main-stream church knows about SDA. When Danielle first became interested in her boy friend she asked me "so what do you think of Seventh Day Adventists?" My answer at the time was that they were too legalistic for my tastes but "no big deal". Then I began to study the doctrine through Dale Ratzliff's books and on-line, including Ellen White.Org, and I now have sick feelings about their relationship. Danielle works now for a youth pastor at a nearby Bible preaching church and she even asked him what he thinks of SDA-he said he thinks their doctrine is okay! The main stream church really does not know! I sure didn't. I don't question Jonathan's character-I actually trust him with Danielle in moral issues-but I find it hard to believe he can believe his doctrine, especially after attending the same Christian high school as her. And why would his parents send him to other than an SDA school? Don't they worry about what they would consider false teachings? He does attend an SDA college however. And Flying Lady, thanks for your frankness. I pray they break up also-a broken heart never killed any of us. I would accept him if he renounced his doctrine but he seems stuborn in his beliefs. And Richard, thanks for the help with the photo, I'm somewhat challenged in that respect. CW | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3791 Registered: 12-2003 |
You're absolutely right that the mainstream church doesn't know what Adventism really is, and it NEEDS to know. Colleen | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 428 Registered: 7-2004 |
Being stubborn in beliefs is something I'm very familiar with, because that was me for about 20 years! You may have already read our story on this site, but my husband (Ric_b) was converted to SDAism through me, back when we were engaged in the early 80's. I have to admit, I was glad he was deceived long enough to marry me! However, he never fully accepted every SDA teaching, and within about 3 years of our marriage, he discovered through research in the Ellen White vault at Andrews University, many of the problems with Ellen White. However, it took many more years before I was willing to look honestly at the issue. Most of these years, he said very little to me about the sensitive stuff but simply modeled grace and was clear about where he stood and why on key doctrinal points. For several years, knowing that he was definitely a Christian (and I thought thankfully, was at least an SDA on the books), I fully accepted him and trusted God to lead us to spiritual unity - thinking that meant he would come to fully understand and accept all SDA teachings, and even my areas of questions would clear up. But God had a different plan, and without my husband's knowledge at first, the veil was removed and we both came to fully understand the New Covenant at the same time and were able to leave at the same time. I remember the last few years of being SDA lamenting that my husband wasn't raised SDA, because then it would be so much easier for him to understand and accept SDA teachings. But if I hadn't married him, how much longer would I have stayed in spiritual bondage with no clue how I was missing out on freedom in Jesus? I guess what I'm trying to say is, continue to be helpful but not forceful. Leave it in God's hands, knowing He is in control, even if that means a long time period of anxiousness over the future. Recently, I apologized to my in-laws over the trouble I caused them getting their son into the SDA church. I am so thankful all these years how quietly supportive they were of us (though not of our beliefs), especially since I don't handle friction well. They were the most surprised people in the world when we woke up and left. | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 307 Registered: 5-2004 |
Raven, I was glad to see you posted that since I was thinking along the same lines  I guess we don't always know the plans God has for us...but we can always be certain that He wastes nothing. And He always knows those who are His. Rom 8:37 But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. Rom 8:38 For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, Rom 8:39 nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord. Cw, just keep praying. You never know how the Lord will use you and your family. It seems you have raised your daughter on a strong foundation. God will not fail her! Or you! I'm not trying to trivialize the problems with SDA - they are many. I have many pages of references I collected in my own departure of where EGW directly contradicts clear Bible passages. (If you'd be interested, I'd be happy to post them here, or even email them to you.) But from her boyfriend's perspective, being raised Adventist there all this doctrine is deeply rooted in His very being. Most SDA's are wonderful God-fearing people. They are just too manipulated to be able to see the doctinal errors until the Holy Spirit opens their eyes. Just know that you are in our prayers. And that this is God's battle. He will see you through! | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 5 Registered: 4-2006 |
Raven, thanks for the info on the 18th Funamental Belief. I looked for the entire list-27 I believe?- but could not find them. Could you tell me where to find all 27? Thanks. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 429 Registered: 7-2004 |
Here is the link to the official SDA website, where these Fundamental Beliefs are posted. http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/fundamental/index.html There are now 28. The new one is #11, voted in at the General Conference Session this past summer. | ||
| Melissa Registered user Username: Melissa Post Number: 1357 Registered: 7-2003 |
I guess I take it differently because they are NOT married yet. Yes, some leave, but B has not and will not, so it would seem. I'm sure you would not suggest I marry him or continue in a relationship with him on the "hope" that he might some day. I would have a hard time with a family that has come in and somewhat behind my back swept my child into their religious structure. Inevitably the daughter will be expected to choose between her parents and "loyalty" to adventism. Yes, God is sovereign and he does all kinds of things, but does that mean we sit passively by and not "fight" for our children? Isn't it possible God would not "will" for the daughter and her family to go through these struggles and strife and would want Dad to be honest about his concerns? I have told my dad a dozen times that I wished he had expressed his concerns to me about my first husband before we were married because it may have saved me from the awful circumstances I endured and changed my life. Instead, he didn't want to "butt in", so he kept his concerns to himself ... and I and my children now pay the consequences for what he saw that I didn't. Some adventists may be wonderful and "God-fearing", but their goal is to divide the SDAs from the non. I've lived that for almost 7 years now. I don't eat the right foods, don't wear the right clothes, don't send my kids to the right schools, don't attend the right church, on the right day, don't really care about God and probably am not really going to heaven...all because I'm not SDA. It would seem, I'm barely functional as a human being. I don't mean to be harsh, but I've lived as the outsider for enough years that I wouldn't wish that division in anyone's life. Surely God's will does not always reign in the world, or their would not have been sin to begin with. He can use circumstances, but surely it would be better to avoid the wrong turns to begin with, would it not? I'm sure not going to conceed God "wants" my son to be SDA. While it's great that God does bring some couples out together, there are others who live in nothing but strife when one exits and the other remains. Personally, I pray every day that God protects my son, but I also intend to teach my son the truth of scripture so he will avoid the "truth" of adventism. And thus I would recommend the same. That's just my opinion, though. | ||
| Esther Registered user Username: Esther Post Number: 308 Registered: 5-2004 |
Melissa, I didn't mean to imply that anyone should just sit back and let things happen. I'm sorry if I didn't balance out what was in my mind appropriately. I do think that parents who are dealing with their kids being influenced by Adventism should educate themselves and do whatever they can to keep their children out of Adventism. But, dealing with a college age child is a bit different as you can't be so strongly overpowering that you drive the child directly to where you don't want her to go. That aside, I guess I was really trying to convey that although there are some great suggestions above about how to work with her and try to help her see the errors, that no matter what happens after that, God is still in control. You can bet that I will do everything in my power to educate my children about adventism...but even then, the end result will be God's. I'm really sorry and I hope this clears up a little of what I was thinking. I know that there are many here who deal with significant others in their lives who are sda that don't seem to respond to logic or Biblical evidence and I don't ever want to make it seem like people shouldn't be warned about the dangers of sda. | ||
| Raven Registered user Username: Raven Post Number: 430 Registered: 7-2004 |
Melissa, I completely understand and would never suggest passively sitting by. I guess I was trying to say that even if the efforts don't seem to help immediately and marriage happens anyway, continue praying and know that God will work in His time. My in-laws were actually very concerned when my husband became serious about SDAism, and there were some arguments and heated discussions between him and his parents. But once the marriage was happening, they accepted and supported us. I never actively tried to convert my in-laws when I was SDA, and never denounced them for their beliefs. The respect went both ways, and for me that is what I needed. Since I didn't experience it, I can't say what would have happened if my husband had understood the facts about SDAism years ago or even before we were married. As it turned out, he was deceived at least to a degree right along with me, until we both came to the same New Covenant conclusions at the same time and left together. I am grateful there were no major tensions, but acceptance as viable humans on both sides. Of course from my side of the family, that's completely different. I felt totally accepted by my in-laws, but my husband didn't feel that same acceptance from my SDA side even as an SDA, because they all knew he didn't fully embrace it. As someone pointed out a few posts ago, I would whole-heartedly agree that the best defense against getting sucked into SDAism is having a thorough understanding of how Jesus completely replaced the Old Covenant, and that the 10 Commandments are part of the 613 Old Covenant laws. That was the key to my husband thinking the SDA church had to be correct in many ways, because he was taught in his Lutheran background that the 10 Commandments are completely relevant for Christians today. As Lutheran he was also taught that no one could keep the Commandments perfectly and that's why we need Jesus, but when there is so much emphasis placed on the 10 Commandments being THE STANDARD, then the SDA's have you because the 7th day Sabbath is clearly in there. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 3794 Registered: 12-2003 |
Raven, you are right. It is understanding the New Covenant that is especially necessary in protecting against Adventism. Just for the sake of your being aware of what is likely happening on the boyfriend's side, Cwóand Raven alluded to thisóhe (and likely his parents) are actively trying to get her to accept Adventism. It has actually been a rather strict practice over the years that Adventists must not marry outside the church, and from the boyfriend's parents' perspective, it's almost certain that they are wishing he'd found a nice Adventist girl instead of your daughter. Even if she converts, they may always see her as a bit of an "outsider" unless she embraces Adventism wholeheartedly. Whatever happens, it's vital to remember that, as both Esther and Raven have said, God is in control, and you never cease praying for them. In the meantime, I would definitely educate myself about Adventism if I were you and pray for opportunities to talk in ways that will not provoke her and him to defensiveness. It's really important to remember that you are not fighting and ideological or even a theological battle. You are fighting a spiritual battle, literally. Adventism has its power because it is a deception designed to seduce people away from true Biblical Christianity. Ephesians 6:10-18 must be your text, and remember: the battle is the Lord's! Colleen | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1192 Registered: 10-2004  |
Cw, Welcome to the forum! I'm so glad you are finding out the truth about Adventism, and hopefully you will be able to help your daughter. Like you said, most Christians unfortunately don't know very much about Adventism. I would highly recommend (for both you and your daughter) an audio presentation about SDA by Timothy Oliver (who is with Watchman Fellowship, a counter-cult ministry). You can listen to this presentation (in several parts) at the following site: http://www.thinkabouteternity.org/SDA/SDAFrameset.htm He does not address all of the problems with SDA in that presentation, but he does do a very good job of presenting several of them. I must warn you about the SDA's 28 Fundamental Beliefs. They are a carefully crafted statement for the general public, trying to look more like an orthodox, evangelical Christian church. Therefore, they are not necessarily an accurate reflection of what the SDA church truly teaches. In addition, SDAs have their own, different definitions for many commonly-used Christian terms and phrases. Therefore, what it may sound like they are teaching is not necessarily what they are really teaching. The SDA church publishes an official book explaining their fundamental beliefs in more detail. This book, which was written when there were only 27 fundamentals, is entitled Seventh-day Adventists Believe ... A Biblical Exposition of 27 Fundamental Doctrines, and is available to read online at http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/index.htm This is the main book that Timothy Oliver uses in the audio presentation I mentioned above. Even with this book, though, it is difficult to wade through all of the apparent self-contradictions, etc., as they try to sound evangelical some of the time to try to convince people that they are a Christian church. For instance they will say they believe in justification by faith, but they either re-define it or say that justification is only the first part of the process of salvation (sanctification [keeping the Ten Commandments, etc.] being the second part). One of their doctrines that they leave out completely from their statement of 28 Fundamental Beliefs is their doctrine that Satan (rather than Jesus Christ) is the scapegoat of Leviticus 16. They teach that Satan bears the sins of the righteous (but not of the wicked), and that our sins are not actually taken away until Satan atones for them, thus completing the "fulfillment" of the Day of Atonement. They do discuss this doctrine in the above book explaining their fundamentals, and their "authoritative source of truth" Ellen G. White teaches this doctrine in her writings. One of the best books about Ellen G. White is White Washed by ex-SDA pastor Sydney Cleveland, which includes a chapter dealing with the demonic/occultic phenomena experienced by Ellen G. White. Regarding the SDA's Clear Word Bible, I don't know if you've come across it, but there is a very insightful document detailing some of the deliberate distortions in it, which you can read by clicking on this link: http://www.ratzlaf.com/4-17-01%20Deliberate%20Distortions%20in%20SDA.pdf God bless, Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on April 20, 2006) | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 6 Registered: 4-2006 |
Thanks Jeremy, I'll check out those links. And I know what you mean about SDA sounding good in the writings they target to the general public. Before I found sites like FAF and EllenWhite.org I was doing word searches that took me to official SDA sites. In reading their doctrine they are able to come accross fine. It was frustrating trying to dig out the truth. I still couldn't tell you how I stumbled accross this forum. Well, I take that back. I've spent more time on my knees lately about this and God has done some works. In fact, I'm not one who says "God has spoken to me" a lot. I think I'm too hard-headed for that. But there are three things that I really do feel God has confirmed to me. The first two are absolute truth and I'm taking #3 on faith. #1-SDA is a false doctrine. It does not line up with scripture in some very serious ways. If it was just a difference regarding dunking or sprinkling, pre or post trib, or any other minor doctrinal difference I could live with it. But this doctrine challenges my very salvation and I can't accept that into my family. #2- Because of #1 God does not want anyone to follow this false teaching, including (and especially right now at least because of her father's prayers) my daughter. #3-And this is the one I am trying to take on faith-God will not let her be deceived by this. I'm not saying she won't marry into SDA but if she does I believe she will be forced to do it in direct disobedience to God. And I,m praying even to the point of being litterally sick at her stomach with guilt if she tries to take an oath of membership or baptism or marriage. D and J are not talking about marriage to her Mom and me because they are both responsible enough to want to continue their education. They both know that I will never give my blessing and the couple of times that D and I have talked about it were with respect for each other. But she doesn't open that door much and J does not come to our home because he knows I don't want his doctrine in my family. I had offered to have him over for dinner once and discuss our doctrines but it never happened. And now that I am much more educated in SDA doctrine I think he and D know it would be much harder to pass the "spin" to me. | ||
| Flyinglady Registered user Username: Flyinglady Post Number: 2463 Registered: 3-2004 |
Cw, I have to tell you why I prayed as I did for your daughter. I was married to a man who became Seventh day Adventist just to marry me. Then after we married, he could not live up to the standards of the church. I was hurt and disappointed with him. He knew I would not marry him unless he was SDA. I do not want to see you daughter go through what I put my ex-husband through. I was such a legalist and was not a Christian, but I was a Seventh day Adventist. I was born SDA and went to SDA schools from first grade through college. My parents were not strict about who we dated, so I dated non SDA boys and married this one. So I know what I put my ex through and do not want to see it happen to your daughter. When we had our son I made sure he was raised SDA, that is my brand of SDA. I read to him stories from the Bible and not from SDA literature. My son called me this past summer and told me that the things he learned from me is not what the SDA church teaches. My son is another story which I am not going to tell at this time. I give credit to God for that. It was only after our divorce that I loosened my hold on the SDA "standards" with my son. I could say all kinds of things about how God changed me as my son was growing up. Like I said, I do not want your daughter to experience the things my ex did. I will continue to pray for her and you and your wife. God really did lead you to this web site, like he did me. Isn't God AWESOME. Diana | ||
| Cw Registered user Username: Cw Post Number: 7 Registered: 4-2006 |
Diana, God did lead me here and He is AWESOME. You try to talk to almost any christian about SDA and they think you're nuts. From you folks I get honest and informed answers. When I asked D why there is no mention of J accepting OUR doctrine instead of her being expected to adopt HIS she said "he would never leave SDA" and that's a badge of honor. But then I am deemed unreasonable to be equally strong and unyielding in my faith. Why the double standard? She also takes my comments to J and his parents-whom I have no relationship with-and accepts their answers to those concerns as gospel. I told her Ellen White was a false prophet and, after getting their answer to that, said "J's dad says she was not a prophet, but a great teacher". If she opens the discussion again my response will be "Jesus was either Christ as he claimed or he was a fraud and a lunatic". Why doesn't the same standard hold true for Ellen White? She was either the messenger of God like she said or she was a fraud. Double standard again. The biggest blessing in all of this is that a year and 1/2 ago I began a new hobby. I memorize scripture at a rate I never thought possible, especially at my age. The more I do it, the more I want to and the better I get at it. Now instead of negative thinking and fretting I silently go through my list of scriptures. It's the greatest hobby, along with my 5 string banjo, that I can imagine. God bless. CW |
