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Message |
Rafael_r
Registered user
Username: Rafael_r
Post Number: 63
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 2:28 pm: |     |
And then the confussion, where every body is a teacher.
®The single source of discourse for them was the individual, personal point of view, and thus, distortion set in from the beginning.®
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Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 94
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 8:02 pm: | |
Part of the difference between Protestantism and Orthodoxy lies in the definition of the word "Salvation" as used in the NT. Orthodoxy sees this definition as primary;
1) to save a suffering one (from perishing), i.e. one suffering from disease, to make well, heal, restore to health
1) to preserve one who is in danger of destruction, to save or rescue
Then, Orthodoxy believes that we should be accurate in what we are saved FROM. We are saved from death, and death is a result of sin, and the Devil, not God, is the author of death and sin. So, according to Orthodox belief, there is no sense in which we are saved from God. We are saved from evil. Now, if we are saved from death and evil rather than from God, salvation isn't about God changing his mind about us. Salvation is about the problem with us getting fixed, so we don't fall prey to the devil, sin and death.
So salvation is seen as a journey of healing. When someone asks an Orthodox person "are you saved?" they could reply "you mean, am I healed?" Yes, God is healing me, and it's a journey.
The journey to full healing from the sinful tendencies we are born with takes time and effort because of the fact that God totally and completely respects our free will. We are at liberty to make bad choices anytime we wish. But the Orthodox Christian church is a path, with practices which a person can choose to follow which aid the person in becoming willfully united to God, and thus progressively further from participation in a sinful life.
And in case a person were to think "it's impossible for a person to live righteously in this life!" in Orthodoxy we can point to numerous saints who demonstrated a unity with God to the point of glorification even in this life.
A person does not lose every chance for growth when they leave this life, in Orthodox thought. However, a person should be on the path of healing when they leave this life. Growth continues as long as we exist, even after sin is totally gone. God is infinite and we were meant to become more and more like God.
The entire thrust of Orthodoxy is taking a person and getting them back into the image and likeness of God the way man was meant to be. As an Orthodox Christian you are always trying to do things which open yourself to the dwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Of course the church is like a net and all kinds of fishes get caught in the net.
Jeremiah |
Chris
Registered user
Username: Chris
Post Number: 1238
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 8:33 pm: | |
Please compare and contrast the following quotes.
quote:Jeremiah, Post Number 94
So, according to Orthodox belief, there is no sense in which we are saved from God.
quote:Romans 5:9 (NASB)
9 Much more then, having now been justified by His blood, we shall be saved from the wrath of God through Him.
Chris |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 95
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 8:57 pm: | |
That particular text looks suspiciously like one of the differences in the manuscript streams... you've heard about the "recieved text", right? Why some people favor the KJV Bible... anyway... read this in the KJV and we are "saved from wrath" but it doesn't specify God's wrath.
But that's not really answering the question. God's wrath is all over the Bible. How then, don't we have an angry vengeful God?
Consider that God is Love. God is a consuming fire. Sinners cannot stand to be in the presence of God, and would hate heaven. God doesn't have to be anything but loving, and sinners will percieve God as being angry.
For immature children, a loving action can often prompt a temper tantrum. Only with maturity can we begin to really understand and appreciate love in all it's aspects.
For immature humans, God will speak their language of wrath and reward. It works to get people on the right track. For mature people like St John, God is love.
There's a theme throughout the Bible of a "river". A river coming from God. This river is pleasant to those who are like God, but hell to those who are not. See this study; http://www.philthompson.net/pages/library/rivernotes.html
God is bigger than we can know, but God is not the author of evil.
Jeremiah |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1247
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, May 11, 2006 - 9:45 pm: | |
Jeremiah,
If we can't say that we are saved, then why did Paul say that God had saved him (Titus 3:5)? Why did Paul tell the Ephesians that they had been saved once and for all (perfect tense in the Greek--"have been saved and still are") (Ephesians 2:8)?
Also, you wrote: "As an Orthodox Christian you are always trying to do things which open yourself to the dwelling of the Holy Spirit."
Then why does the Bible say that we have been sealed by the Holy Spirit unto the day of redemption (Ephesians 4:30)?
And also, "ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession" (Ephesians 1:13-14 KJV).
It is clear that the Holy Spirit continuously and permanently indwells all believers.
Jeremy |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3934
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 12:26 am: | |
This continuous indwelling, in fact, is the new birth of which Jesus told Nicodemus in John 3. It couldn't happen until Jesus reconciled all things to God by making peace through the blood of His cross (Colossian 1:20).
Colleen |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 96
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 7:45 am: | |
Yes, the "well of water springing up to everlasting life" is indeed the indwelling of God through the Holy Spirit. However, God is a fire, and the more sin is present in us, the less exposure to God we can have without being burnt, in Orthodox theology. Therefore the Spirit is given "by measure".
"For he whom God hath sent speaketh the words of God: for God giveth not the Spirit by measure [unto him]." Jn 3.
We are indeed sealed with the Holy Spirit at baptism. The Orthodox ritual about this is quite striking. But even then, there's a danger;
"And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption." Eph 4:30
What Protestantism likes to do is say that God and sinfulness can mix in the same person. Orthodoxy says that no, your capacity to be filled with God is proportional to how much like God you have become.
So in Orthodoxy you partake of God through sacraments or "mysteries". Such as in the Eucharist. Those who partake of the body and blood of Christ unworthily are seen as being in grave danger, as St Paul mentioned in 1 Cor. 11. Our sins must be confessed and repented of beforehand so exposure to the fire will cleanse us.
"...the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin."
"If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness."
In Orthodoxy, one thing Jesus accomplished was the uniting of humanity to God, totally and completely, in Jesus. To be a Christian, you become one with Jesus... you're buried with Him, raised to life with Him, you experience Him in the mysteries, and your sin becomes cleansed more and more as you grow in grace. You partake of the divine nature, since Jesus took your human nature.
When Jesus was crucified, Orthodoxy teaches that He went into Hades where every dead person went. But Hades could not contain God, and Jesus basically burst open the doors of Hades. Because of this, everybody is going to be resurrected. The righteous to everlasting life, because they will be able to withstand that river of fire, and the wicked to torments, because they will be burned by that fire.
Orthodoxy teaches that everything which was redeemed from death was partaken of by Jesus... so Jesus takes our humanity, our sufferings, even takes our sin upon him though he didn't sin himself, and finally takes our death. All of this is redeemed and we unite with Jesus that so we can be restored from the fall back to righteousness and full communion with God.
The only way someone could think that God invented evil was to say that because God made creatures with actual free will God made evil. But ever seen a robot capable of love? The Trinity is love... You don't have love if there is no capability of giving and recieving. Thus 3 persons. God chose to make creatures capable of love, thus they have freewill. Some of those creatures choose against love, and since the God who created them is loving by nature, they are enemies of God and cannot stand in His presence.
Doesn't it look like the Protestant view is that God needed to change His mind about sinners, while the Orthodox view is that God never changes?
Jeremiah |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 97
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 8:02 am: | |
Understand "saved" as "healed" and the difficulty vanishes, I think;
"For we ourselves also were sometimes foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving divers lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful, [and] hating one another. But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared, Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he healed us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life. [This is] a faithful saying, and these things I will that thou affirm constantly, that they which have believed in God might be careful to maintain good works. These things are good and profitable unto men."
We were wicked, now we have been healed by baptism and the gift of the Holy Spirit... and it does also mention that it's good to constantly affirm the necessity of good works.
Like as if we didn't already know that if we are healed from that long list of evil works they will need to be replaced with good works... 
Jeremiah
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Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 3938
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 1:42 pm: | |
Jeremiah, your explanation of salvation is exactly the way I learned it (with a few different phrases) in Adventism. The more we become like God, the more of God we will have in us.
Ephesians 2 tells us that we are seated NOW with Christ in heavenly places. We who have accepted His sacrifice for our sins are raised with Him and saved fully, now.
The basic difference between Orthodox theology and Protestant theology is that we do not become "more saved" while we become "more like God". When we accept Jesus, we are saved at that moment. We are transferred from the domain of darkness to the kingdom of His beloved son (Col 1:13), and instead of being "in Adam", we are now "in Christ". When God looks at us, He sees us hidden in Christ. We are completely covered with His righteousness. In His eyes, we are positionally sanctified.
We are still in mortal tents, and the Holy Spirit who seals us when we believe changes us from the inside out as we live our lives, but this ongoing spiritual growth is not salvational. Jesus is all we need for salvation. He asks us to submit to Him and to allow Him to make us new.
Colleen |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 98
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 5:32 pm: | |
Yes Colleen, it is very much like the SDA understanding of salvation in certain respects.
The difference you see between Protestant and Orthodox as I understand it at the moment lies in the actual definition of what salvation IS.
If salvation is healing, rather than some kind of on-the-books "you're IN now!" thing, then there really isn't any way to make salvation instantaneous. Especially if the healing involves preserving our free will.
Now I'm not saying it could not be some of both... this doesn't necessarily have to be either/or, I think. God could have "books" and names listed there, etc.
When you say "this ongoing spiritual growth is not salvational" an Orthodox reply might be "but spiritual growth is the actual definition of salvation!"... You can see the difference in languages between Protestant and Orthodox here.
I can see how it would be attractive to think you don't have to worry about anything, just believe and you are saved. I guess this might be attractive to me if it didn't contradict the entire history of Christianity before the Reformation.
I'm very new to Orthodox myself... not even a catechumen yet. You can expect that my explanations are going to fall a little short... especially since Orthodoxy is a "positive science" kind of thing where you experience first, then understand. You don't "get" Orthodox theology by just studying. To "get" Orthodox theology is like using the microscope and viewing the subject and then understanding what you saw, rather than making a comprehensive theory of what you're supposed to see IF you were to look through the microscope. In terms of my position, I've read other people's descriptions of what they saw through the microscope but haven't really looked myself yet.
Jeremiah |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1252
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 7:18 pm: | |
Jeremiah,
You wrote:
quote:If salvation is healing, rather than some kind of on-the-books "you're IN now!" thing, then there really isn't any way to make salvation instantaneous. Especially if the healing involves preserving our free will.
Why not? What about the man who was blind from birth that Jesus healed instantaneously?
Wasn't that a one-time, permanant healing?
And did it destroy the man's "free will"?
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on May 12, 2006) |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 99
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Friday, May 12, 2006 - 11:16 pm: | |
Jeremy,
Because you can't instantaneously change a person's sinful habits and character without over-riding that person's will. At least that's how it seems to work in life!
Let's compare this to hours of flight training... if you're learning to fly, can someone else donate their hours of flight training to you?
I think it's a similar concept. If the definition of salvation is healing, or in this analogy, becoming an experienced pilot, will God donate saved up hours of training to you instantaneously? Maybe it's possible but I somehow don't think that's how it works.
But if you're in the flight training program and you are obeying your instructor, eternal security directly depends on the choices you make. And the more good choices you make, the more natural it will be to always make good choices.
Something like that anyway.
Jeremiah |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1256
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 12:59 pm: | |
Jeremiah,
When our spirits our brought to eternal life (born again) by the Holy Spirit and connected to God, they have been instantaneously "healed" from sin and been made alive to God. Our new, alive spirits now want to please God always. But we still have sinful flesh/bodies. However, when we are born again, the indwelling Holy Spirit is given to us as a pledge or earnest, guaranteeing the eventual redemption of our bodies also (Ephesians 1:13-14, 2 Corinthians 1:21-22, 2 Corinthians 5:4-5, Romans 8:23).
Jeremy |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 100
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, May 13, 2006 - 4:18 pm: | |
Jeremy,
I think you're saying that our born again spirit is now alive, like Adam's spirit was alive? (according to what I think I've read such as in Proclamation!) In that case, are we better off than Adam? He sinned with a living spirit.
Kind of like this;
"For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. "
"I keep under my body"...
"I die daily"...
An analogy of flight training comes to mind...
Jeremiah |
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