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Message |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 733
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 4:04 pm: |     |
CORRECTION: The correct link is: www.preteristarchive.com/dEmEnTiA/tarkowski-ed_dd_01.html
Dennis Fischer |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2573
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 5:00 pm: | |
With all the Adventist emphasis on the "3 angels messages", when I finally learned that Jesus is the gospel, I no longer worry or am concerned what will happen in the future. Jesus promises to be with us and I am happy with that. I do not have to know what the future holds, as I did as an SDA. I will let Jesus take care of me, one day at a time, starting 2 years ago when I came to know him. He is so awesome.
Diana |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 58
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 9:39 pm: | |
I was thinking that another reason Formers might have a problem with the pre-trib theory is that it is dependent on a specific map of apocalyptic events heavily based on specific interpretations of the book of Daniel. Adventism based itself on Daniel 8, and pre-trib bases itself on Daniel 9. When we left Adventism, many of us no doubt read some of Ford's contextual exegesis on the book of Daniel; from that we hopefully learned some good interpretation princples, and so I think we recognize when something "fits" and when something has to be squeezed or stretched to make it fit. |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1721
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Friday, June 02, 2006 - 11:58 pm: | |
Dennis,
That is a great link on the pre-trib rapture. Margaret Macdonald even claimed to have the "spirit of prophecy". How amazing. Desmond Ford documented the similarities between Ellen White and Margaret Macdonald in his book "Adventist Crisis of Spiritual Identity".
There is nothing new under the sun. Of course, the proponents of the pre-trib rapture will deny that Margaret had anything to do with their doctrine as they are convinced tha it can be proved from the Bible. Does this sound familiar?
Stan |
Dennis
Registered user
Username: Dennis
Post Number: 734
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 5:40 am: | |
Stan,
Thanks for sharing that Dr. Ford compared Ellen White and Margaret Macdonald in his book. I never read that particular book. BOTH claimed to be the "spirit of prophecy," and BOTH had prophecies that never came to pass.
Dennis Fischer |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4091
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 2:08 pm: | |
Dennis, that link is very interesting. Thanks for sharing it. It's amazing how much deception has crept into the church over the centuries. The whole exit of the church before a time of suffering just doesn't show up in the Bible, from my perspective. I know the texts people use to support it, but the "support" seems as much of a stretch as does the "support" for Adventist theology.
The background on MacDonald is very interesting. De ja vue!
Colleen |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 64
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 10:14 pm: | |
This makes me wonder and ask God, "What is Your heart about this?" I mean, if millions of people are banking faith on an early exit before suffering (just like millions of Adventists are banking on a Sunday law and being saved by keeping Saturday), what does the heart of God feel who loves each of them so very much?
... |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1724
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 03, 2006 - 11:48 pm: | |
I agree Ramone. In so many ways there are parallels between Adventism and modern day evangelicalism. In third world countries the popular gospels of health and wealth and the "secret escape" doctrine just won't wash.
I think of the unbelievable success of the 'Left Behind' series by Tim Lahaye. I mean volumes of sensationalistic junk that is pure fantasy and not based on scripture.
The Calvary Chapel movement has done the most to propagate this doctrine, and many good men who I otherwise respect have bought in to this doctrine.
Speaking of Calvary Chapel, there was a major expose in Christianity Today, the May 8 edition about the unaccountability of the Calvary Chapel movement. That is our former church where we used to attend. There are major problems right now in this non-denominational movement that are very disturbing. Here is the link to the CT article
www.christianitytoday.com/ct/2006/119/12.0.html
Also a related link is this one www.phoenixpreacher.com
Chuck Smith is a good Bible teacher, and the Calvary Chapels are very good for young Christians. But over time, I saw some of the same problems there that I saw in Adventism. Chuck Smith has now had to dissociate himself from Calvary Chapel Capo Beach, where his own son Chuck Jr. has been teaching some very wierd things, and that church has been cut off from the association of Calvary Chapels.
The problem that Chuck Smith has finally encountered is his vision of what it means for a senior pastor to be accountable. He believes a senior pastor should be like Moses--accountable only to God, and not to a board of elders. This has now been exposed as a major problem in the CT article linked above.
The doctrinal problems don't stop with the pre-trib rapture. Chuck Smith teaches that we get our resurrection bodies when we die, and that Christ was resurrected in a different body than the one that went into the grave. Also the Calvary movement has been attacking the Reformed faith, and selling books that even say that john Calvin taught a false gospel. Their Arminian view of salvation is very similar to Adventism, as they hedge about the doctrine of eternal security.
I only say this as someone who went from Adventism to that movement, and was blinded for a long time about some of these teachings.
Stan |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1726
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Monday, June 05, 2006 - 8:01 pm: | |
Phil Ryken, pastor of Tenth Presbyterian church in Philadelphia commenting on the model of church government at Calvary Chapel:
6/3/2006
posted by Philip Ryken
A recent online article called "Unaccountable at Calvary Chapel" (by Rob Moll) outlines the difficulties faced by a 14,000-member Albequerque church that is still dominated by its absentee pastor -- a man who now preaches in California. The article is an unhappy expose of financial mismanagement and the abuse of ecclesiastical power. What caught my attention is a paragraph that explained the form of church government for the Calvary network:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Chuck Smith founded the Calvary Chapel movement in the '70s when he left a denominational church. Smith had resisted the oversight of his denomination, and he now teaches that the senior pastor is solely accountable to God. 'The pastor is ruled over by the Lord and recognized by the congregation as God's anointed instrument to lead the church, with the board guiding and directing,' Smith writes in Calvary Chapel Distinctives. Though there is no standard for church government, most Calvary Chapels follow the so-called 'Moses model,' which gives the senior pastor extensive authority to run the church as he sees fit."
It is a model that can work, I suppose, if the minister happens to be Moses. Otherwise, it is a recipe for spiritual disaster, and indeed for ecclesiastical tyranny. I would love to offer the good people in Albequerque a short course on the biblical model of church government that we call Presbyterianism, in which the church is led by a brotherhood of elders who are accountable not only to God, but also to one another. Not that Presbyterianism in and of itself can prevent all abuses of spiritual authority, of course, but it is a structure that acknowledges human depravity from the beginning, and the stronger temptations that come with greater power and authority."
When the Calvary Chapel movement was a lot younger, this model worked quite well for a long time. It would probably work if Chuck Smith could be the senior pastor of all the Calvary Chapels. However, the first sign of problems with authority occurred back in the early 90's when a well known pastor became involved in a moral failure. This pastor was right up the street from Calvary Costa Mesa.
When this pastor fell into moral sin, the church he was pastoring was governed by a board of elders. That board of elders set up conditions and a program of healing so that pastor could be restored over time to his former position.
Well, Chuck Smith decided that it would be unreasonable to subject that famous pastor who had a national radio program, and was subject to a responsible board of elders, to that kind of public rebuke. So, Chuck Smith hired this pastor immediately, and had him teaching Bible studies within two weeks of this pastor's fall. The woman who was involved in this tryst with this pastor, was seen sitting in the audience when this pastor was teaching. This story is a matter of public record, and I feel better about not disclosing the name of the pastor that was involved.
But, there are many instances where abuse of power occurs when the senior pastor is all powerful. Unfortunately, it looks like a great movement that was indeed blessed of God for so many years is now reaping the consequences of un-checked power.
Marti and I benefitted so greatly from the ministry and teaching of Chuck Smith. And I am sure many reading this have benefitted as well. I am hoping and praying that Calvary Chapel heeds the counsel of people like Philip Ryken and others to improve accountability in their ministry.
Even with all that said, I do not blanketly condemn the Calvary Chapel movement. I would still recommend a lot of these individual congregations. There is a lot better teaching in most of the Calvary Chapels than there is in a lot of evangelical churches. But I think being aware of the possible abuses is very important.
Stan
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Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1730
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Tuesday, June 06, 2006 - 9:23 pm: | |
Since we attended Calvary Chapel Costa Mesa for so many years, I am amazed that there is a web site for former Calvary Chapel members, somewhat analogous to FAF, but with important differences. I am fascinated by this. www.phoenixpreacher.com
There is a specific weblink where those who used to believe in the pre-tribulation rapture discuss their experiences they had previously at Calvary Chapels. It is interesting to read the responses of those who were previously taught questionable doctrine.
www.phoenixpreacher.com/?p=400#comment-25974
Stan |
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