| Author |
Message |
Justdodie
Registered user
Username: Justdodie
Post Number: 80
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Friday, June 23, 2006 - 5:43 pm: |     |
Violet, I agree. I can't imagine anyone calling themselves Christian without that naturally implying beliefs centering around Jesus. I work with someone who said, yes, she would call herself a liberal Christian. When I asked her to define 'Christian' she said, "Someone who follows the teachings of Jesus." I don't think there's any disagreement there. But not all Christians take the fundamentalist position that we are all 'depraved' individuals who deserve to die and that Jesus had to die to save us. In fact, this person I mentioned seemed fairly apalled by that explanation. I have attended her church a number of times and I would agree, I never heard that viewpoint mentioned. Their emphasis is on Jesus as 'savior' in the sense of being an example and teacher for us to follow, to show us the way to God, and to a better life here on earth. They just don't do the 'convict you of sin' and 'get saved' thing.
This was confusing to me at first too, because I didn't know there was any other way to define Christianity or to BE a Christian. This lady used to always be amazed at the things I would say whenever I would talk about my upbringing. She would say, "Oh, I don't think most people think that way--that church was just extreme and weird. " I think she is finally beginning to get an understanding of the fundamentalist position, and I am finally beginning to understand that not all Christians are fundamentalists at all. It's funny, though, isn't it, whenever we hear someone else use certain terms and phrases, how we all just take for granted that the other person means exactly the same thing that we do. But I guess if it's all you've ever heard about, that's understandable.
Joyce |
Violet
Registered user
Username: Violet
Post Number: 423
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 5:21 am: | |
Joyce, if their understanding of Christianity is that Christ is only a good example to follow and not our Savior then how do they explain the sacrifices in the Old Testament and His death on the cross? Anyone can teach good behavior, not to lie cheat or steal, but it was Jesus' death and resurection that atoned for our sins that made Him our Savior. I Peter 2:24 says "He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to rightiousness; for by His wounds you were healed." Jesus would not of died on the cross for our sins if there was any other way. When He was in Gethsemane it is written in Luke 22:42 were He pleaded with the Father to let this cup pass if possible, but He was always willing to submit to the Father's will.
In essence what your friends are doing is saying that Jesus dying on the cross was a sham. If His sinless life and death for atonement of our sins was not needed the He must be an idiot. I don't know but I don't think I would want to follow soneone like that. |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 494
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 7:45 am: | |
Well said, Violet. I think it all comes down to whether or not a person believes the Bible is the Word of God and believes the Bible is accurate and trustworthy as Truth. We're currently going through the Book of John in our Friday evening Bible study, and it is incredible how often the divinity of Jesus comes up. It's plain as day over and over again that Jesus is God, and that He does make that claim for Himself.
If a person believes the Bible is like any other book, with a mixture of truth and error, then it leaves the door wide open for anyone and everyone to pick and choose their own truth and perhaps everyone is wrong, but who knows?
IMO, God prefers spirituality to be a matter of the heart (spirit, soul, whatever you want to call it), and that's why none of the answers to questions about God, Jesus, the Bible have been made scientifically provable. As Colleen talked about, there are people who personally know Jesus. And for those who do know Jesus, it's perfectly logical to accept the Bible and everything in it, to be what it claims to be. It is also then perfectly logical to accept that when Jesus says He is the only way to God, He means exactly what He says.
That's not to say that everyone who has decided the Bible is absolute truth, knows Jesus. These, I believe, are the scarier types, because those who don't know Jesus can't possibly get much right on how to interpret what the Bible is saying. Those who do know Jesus will still have theological differences of opinion, but there will be unified agreement on the essentials that Jesus is God, died for our sins and rose again, freely offers His righteousness in place of ours, and is coming back at which time believers will be changed and forever with Him. |
Justdodie
Registered user
Username: Justdodie
Post Number: 81
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 8:57 am: | |
Violet,
As best that I can understand it, more 'liberal' Christians might not think it necessary to view Jesus as a 'sacrifice' for us because they don't view human beings as being as 'bad' as the more fundamentalist Christians do. Imperfect, yes, but not inherently flawed or depraved. I know this is how I see it and this is how others I've talked to think. I would say that probably such people do not feel it imperative that our sins be 'atoned' for. That is more of a revenge-based viewpoint (Old Testament--eye for an eye), rather than a forgiveness-based view (New Testament--forgive your enemies, do good to those that persecute you). I know it took me a VERY LONG TIME to get over the idea that we must have justice. That was drilled into me as an SDA, and it is so hard to let go of justice-seeking and really try to practice the way of love and forgiveness that Jesus taught. It just doesn't seem 'natural'---but I think now, I only felt that way because I had never experienced anything else. I am slowly learning, and trying to learn to practice forgiveness myself. Believe me, it's NOT easy!!
My understanding is that the early Hebrews in the Old Testament believed in a God who demanded the sacrifies to somehow appease him. This always puzzled me when I was younger since we in modern times don't think that way, but as I learned and studied I began to realize that this was a very common way of thinking many thousands of years ago, by people and cultures around the world. It was just their more primitive way of viewing the world. It was the best explanation they could come up with to explain the world around them.
Then, later on, along came Jesus (and others also during that time), with a different way of thinking. He taught a God of love and peace and caring, not the angry and demanding and fearsome God of the more ancient times. Obviously, this way of thinking was very appealing to a downtrodden and oppressed people who were burdened not only by the Roman government that controlled them, but by their very own religion and priests. So, as always happens in situations like this, Jesus' message was embraced by many, but the powers-that-be were NOT pleased. They felt threatened and angry. He was daring to defy them and say, there is a better way. And he lost his life in the process. So, I see Jesus as someone with the courage to stand up for his convictions, even to the point of death. I don't, however, see Jesus as a scapegoat for the 'sins' of others. I see him as having a message for us of, "Here is a better way---I've found it, I've experienced it---you can too."
We know that the church that developed as a result of Jesus' teachings eventually decided to cast Jesus in the role of 'sacrificial lamb' for the sins of the people, as that is what is taught in some of the New Testament writings, and that is what has come down traditionally through the official church. This does not, however, mean that all followers of Jesus agreed with this (either then or now), nor that Jesus felt this way himself. We have to follow our own inner guidance on such things and decide for ourselves what we think is true. But I do know that there are many, many people who do not believe that Jesus 'had to die for their sins', and they do not at all think that their way of viewing Jesus negates his message or his guidance. I've come to realize for myself, this is a very personal thing that no one individual can or should tell another how to believe. I am just now beginning to learn about who Jesus really was myself. For so many years, his message was so overshadowed (for me) by this particular 'savior' teaching that I could see nothing else. As some of you have pointed out to me, not every one is put off by the teaching of Jesus dying for the sins of humanity. But I was always very put off by it. So put off, in fact, that I totally dismissed Jesus from my mind because I just couldn't stand to listen to it. However, I am now enjoying learning that there is so much more to Jesus than how he died, and I am enjoying this new learning very much.
Raven, I agree with you in a way--it all comes down to WHAT we believe about the Bible. I think that's where the big difference is. Some people view the Bible as a literal 'word of God'--others see it as inspired by the journey of seeking God as experienced by those who wrote the various writings in the Bible. That's where I come from, rather than the literal view. That's why I am able to say: that may be how SOME people see it, but I see it in a different way. It really doesn't matter (to me) which way a person chooses, as long as the way they choose works for them. As I have said before, I think there are as many paths to God as there are people seeking God. And I think that God can accommodate all of them. But of course, that is just one person's opinion. Please, let me say again, I AM NOT SAYING THAT YOU ARE WRONG---I am only saying that it is not my choice. I know it's hard to understand since I believe there are many ways to God, and a lot of you believe there is ONLY ONE WAY. But for me, it's just different ways of thinking, because we're all unique individuals. It's the results that count. Have I found what I am seeking (spiritual growth, closer connection with God, etc) through my chosen path? If so, it is the right path FOR ME. I'm not trying to convince anyone on this forum to change, I am just trying to help you to understand where I, and others like me, are coming from. Communication and understanding... I think if we can't have those, we will always be at odds. Whether in our personal lives, or on a global scale.
Thanks for your interest. I think I'm starting to understand some of your points of view a little better. I hope you can say the same about me (even if we don't agree).
Joyce |
Bobalou
Registered user
Username: Bobalou
Post Number: 41
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 9:08 am: | |
Many thoughts have been running through my mind since I read all of the above posts. My father and his family were mostly all of the Jewish faith. They had no reason to study Christianity. This is the same for millions of humans who have lived or now living on this Earth. There are many reasons why they have never heard the Word Or if they did hear it their traditions and faith have kept them from taking it seriously.
I truly believe that all who are saved are saved through Jesus. The scripture is very plain concerning this. The world my not realize this fact, but if they are to be saved Jesus is the only one who has this power. Only He knows the heart and I thank the Lord that He is the only one that knows my father's heart. At this point I am holding on to the promise that Jesus has the power to save him and my family even though they didn't know to accept Him as their personal Savior. Jesus told the woman at the well to go and sin no more. He didn't tell her that if she did commit more sins she had an advocate. Did she, at that point, know this? Well we don't rightly know. The same goes for those who have never heard the Gospel or maybe heard it, but have not been convicted to accept it.
Some passages in the Bible seem to be in concrete such as "go and sin no more" and the only way to be saved is belief in Jesus. If only we could see the whole picture maybe we would be able to make solid factual no if statements. I for one have not come to that point in my Christian life. I still cling to hope for those who have never met the Savior like I have.
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Violet
Registered user
Username: Violet
Post Number: 425
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 10:39 am: | |
Joyce,
The Old Testament shows a very loving God, if you take the time to look for it.
Hannah and Sarai longed for children and God provided. God sent Jonah to Ninivah to warn of His intensions to destroy the wicked. He wanted to give everyone the opportunity to live. Nahum 1:3 teaches us that that "The Lord is slow to anger and great in power." v7 "The Lord is good, a stronghold in the day of trouble." This decribes the trials that a loving parent goes through. The child strays, the child is warned and then if no response the parent must act. If you had a child in your house that strayed so far from you teachings you too would have to seperate yourself from that child. Your 17 year old son pulls a gun to his mother, as the father of the home you cannot tolerate that behavior. You must act to protect the family. That is how I see God in the Old Testament. Basically Jesus shows us how to act, while the stories in the OT shows us how not to act. Same lesson just two different perspectives.
Joyce, God's love has always been there, He has never changed one step of the way.
You are absolutley right that you have the choice to believe anyway you desire. I respect that, but I cannot agree with your view.
Jesus means too much to me to ever waiver on His place.
V |
Jeremy
Registered user
Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1357
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 12:38 pm: | |
Joyce,
I have a question for you. How can someone say they follow the teachings of Jesus, if they don't believe what He says about sin, salvation, judgement, God's wrath, hell, His death and resurrection, and who He is? Isn't that the majority of His teachings?? I'm just very confused how someone can reject most of Jesus' teachings and then say that they follow His teachings.
Jeremy |
Justdodie
Registered user
Username: Justdodie
Post Number: 82
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 10:37 pm: | |
Just a reminder.... I'm not trying to convince anybody of anything. I'm just trying to explain (for those who asked) the position of some other people who see it differently. One of those different ways happens to be the position of NOT being literalistic or treating the Bible as a book of literal, factual, and totally unimpeachable historical facts, but rather as a set of religious writings. The basic premise makes all the difference in where you end up with your final conclusions. I'm not interested in arguing who's right or wrong. I don't look at life that way any more. I see it as: 'I think this way and you think that way.' Sometimes we just need to listen to each other and say, 'Ah, now I see where you're coming from', without feeling the need to defend and prove ourselves. You know what I mean?
Joyce |
Colleentinker
Registered user
Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4217
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, June 24, 2006 - 11:21 pm: | |
Joyce, I totally see where you're coming from. I believe, though, that there is more to this issue than understanding each other's positions. Now, from a relativistic viewpoint (which is currently the accepted philosophy of education and in much of religion), mutual understanding is what we need, because there is no absolute truth which we must discover.
But what if relativism is wrong? What if there IS absolute truth?
I believe God Himself is absolute truth, and as Truth and as our Creator, He teaches us Truth. I actually feel no sense of defensiveness or a need to argue to prove my point. Truth does not need me to defend it nor to persuade others of it. God doesn't "need" usóbut He does use us in His cause.
I want to comment, by the way, on the Hebrew sacrifices in the Old Testament. Actually, they were not for the purpose of appeasing God. Appeasing gods was common in pagan religions, but in Israel, the sacrifices were for the purpose of foresahdowing the Perfect Sacrifice. God told Israel, in fact, that it was not the sacrifices and offerings He desired, but it was contrite hearts He desired.
Jesus was not a case of "divine child abuse", as I have heard it described. Jesus is the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, according to the book of Revelation. The One True God in three persons planned this singular act of reconciliation before the earth was even created.
God Himself offered Himself to reconcile willful humanity back to Himself. He didn't demand that mankind pay the price to be accepted by Him; He gave part of Himself on our behalf. He Himself took responsibility for our sin. He Himself became a curse for us; He became sin for us that we might become the righteousness of God (Galatians 3:13, 2 Corinthians 5:21).
The Old Testament was like a living metaphor foreshadowing the reality, already established before we were created, of God's divine rescue of us from ourselves.
God has absorbed the pain of our suffering, and He is offering us eternal joy and peace. He is not holding us over a flaming pit, threatening to drop us if we make a misstep; rather, He comes to us and draws us out of our despair and hopelessness and offers us Himself.
Oh, and one more thingóthe way Adventism explains "depravity" and Jesus and His death is not the way evangelical Christianity explains it. Many of their words sound similar, but Adventism is completely despairing. It is a false gospel, and it leaves us hopeless. In reality, the way the Bible describes the work of Jesus is overwhelming and not at all hopeless.
I'm just gald you're here, Joyce! Even though we see things differently, I thank our Sovereign God that He also brought you out of Adventism and that He is working in your heart as He is in mine.
Colleen |
Justdodie
Registered user
Username: Justdodie
Post Number: 83
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 6:28 am: | |
Well, Colleen, of course anything is possible. I could be wrong. YOU could be wrong. We just don't know. All I wanted to tell people was that I'm happy to discuss ideas with them, but I am just so very weary of debating and defending everything little thing I say. It's soooooooooo VERY Adventist. And I just don't want to do that any more. It serves no purpuse (helloooooo---has anyone here changed my mind on anything by trying to push their stuff on me???). I love discussing ideas, more than just about anything else in the world. But for me, there isn't a deeper concern. Understanding IS the issue. I'm finding ideas that I'm comfortable and happy and fulfilled by, and that ring 'true' for me, and I really don't want to have to be constantly defending it---even when people argue with me 'nicely'. I know it's a way that we were taught, but that doesn't mean we have to continue to do it.
I know there are some people who think I am dead wrong, and they want to steer me back into 'the truth.' I get it. And I appreciate their good intentions. But I also know that there are others who are just asking questions because they really want to know where I'm coming from, or they just want to know about other points of view. I'm happy to share that---my view, or any others that I'm aware of or knowledgeable about. But I get the feeling that so many people still think it's a debate, and that I'm trying to convince them, and they want to convince me. It's not a debate to me. I'm through debating. I truly do believe that we are all better served by digging deeper into each other's ideas for the purpose of understanding, not changing someone's mind.
So, let me pose a question to you Colleen, that I posed to a Baptist boyfriend I had several years ago. Just for my own curiosity, I asked him (and surprisingly, he did answer quite honestly)--what would you do if YOU were to find out (and for the moment, let's don't concern ourselves with what kind of evidence it would take)--what would you do if you found out that your entire belief system was wrong---let's say, you received information that you found convincing, that the Bible is not what you think it is. I'm not saying to you that I think this is the case, I'm asking: How would you respond and how would you feel, if you found this to be so? (And yes, I will be happy to answer that same question for you, at length, as you all know I love to do!)
This is the way I like to discuss things, and it's not intended to elicit a response 'proving' that the Bible is true, it is strictly a 'what if' game---want to play?? Or is that something I should take over to MY forum. (I may just do that anyway).
In peace, and understanding (not challenge, not debate),
Joyce |
Violet
Registered user
Username: Violet
Post Number: 427
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 7:17 am: | |
Joyce,
I would like to answer you question to Colleen. In 2001 I discovered that the way of life I had lived for 35 years was WRONG! I was devistated, angry, felt deceived, you name it I felt it. I became depressed, spoke harshly to the people in the system, but then determination took over. I studied and prayed and studied some more. Oh did I say pray? and cry? But then slowly the Lord started opening up my eyes and my heart. He gave me understanding of texts I had never had before. Texts I had read hundreds of time came through with new clairty. He put people in my life that brought more insite into His love. Then He gave me peace. Peace that no matter where I was, no matter what I went through, He loves me and will provide for me. So ya, I've been there...and so have most of the people on this site.
I understand that you are probably fed up with "the truth" being held over your head. I agree debating never won anything, but the local highschool trophy. But you need to relize that when you enter a site established for a certain purpose and you bring in other ideas you must expect questions, deep probing question. Especially this site because the vast majority of these peolpe have been stung hard, and they don't accept someone's opinon. You have to have hard facts to back up what you are saying. It is my understanding that we have basic ground rules here and one of them would be we belive the Bible is the inspired Word of God. So in order for an idea to be accepted it must stand up to the test of comparing it to what the Bible says. There are essentials that are etched in stone. You just happen to hit on one of those- Jesus is the Christ.
I have found that in order to discuss the Bible with anyone they have to be open to the fact it is the basic of all truth. Until then you don't get it. From what I have observed people don't get anywhere debating the Bible they get places reading your Bible and then discussing what they have found.
You seem like a very sincere person and I hope you find what you are looking for.
V |
Justdodie
Registered user
Username: Justdodie
Post Number: 84
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 7:58 am: | |
Yes, Violet, I am finding what I'm looking for, every day, in ever so many ways. I love learning more than anything. I know I've stirred up a little controversy since I've come on this forum, and maybe I'm still a little confused. My understanding was that it is a support group for former Adventists of all kinds, whererever they are in their journey. Granted, I've received responses from lots of folks that indicate that I'm wrong, that it's a site for former Adventists who are still fundamentalist Christian (which, of course, I am not). But Colleen has assured me that I am welcome here, and welcome to share my ideas, even though we don't agree. As I have said, I don't want to debate. I have had a lifetime of that from the Adventists (and other similar 'my-view-of-the-Bible-is-the-only-way' type Christians. That no longer interests me. And if this truly is a forum for only that type of Christian, I will be happy to leave. I don't want to disturb people. For example, I would never go into a Bible study or discussion group of fundamentalist Christians and say the things I have said here, because I would know that is not the purpose of their group. So, if indeed that is the case here, I can either leave, or limit myself strictly to the occasional question I may have about Adventism. Maybe Colleen could clarify for us what the purpose of this forum really is. Perhaps I have totally misunderstood and people are merely tolerating me because they are too polite to throw me out. Please let me know. If you want me to shut up, I'll be happy too. I still have my own web site where I happily rant to my heart's content. And anyone who wants to read my stuff or discuss it is certainly welcome there. I just feel that, once again, I have stirred up a hornet's nest, when all I meant to do was try to explain myself.
I'm sorry if I've offended people, or caused them to think that I am here merely to cause trouble.
Joyce Williams
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/DareToQuestion_DareToFly/ |
Flyinglady
Registered user
Username: Flyinglady
Post Number: 2626
Registered: 3-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, June 25, 2006 - 8:26 am: | |
Joyce,
I am glad you are here, even though we do not agree theologically. You remind me of my oldest sister, as I have said to you before. I may not answer your questions, but I do read them.
You asked Colleen what would she do if she found out her entire belief system was wrong. That is hard for me to even think about, but I will give you my answer. I would hang onto my 12 step program and the Higher Power I found there. That brought me the peace of mind I never had as an SDA. I like to say it cleared the SDA cobwebs our of my mind.
Keep coming back and asking questions.
Diana |
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 24
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, July 11, 2006 - 5:15 pm: | |
To answer the original post - to me an unbeliever is simply someone who has not called upon the name of the Lord to be saved. |
Bobbylog
Registered user
Username: Bobbylog
Post Number: 16
Registered: 6-2006
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 2:17 pm: | |
what is the difference then, between baptized believer who has becomed an unbeliever and a person who has not been baptized at all ... are they on the same ship or not ?
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Helovesme2
Registered user
Username: Helovesme2
Post Number: 555
Registered: 8-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, July 12, 2006 - 5:18 pm: | |
Bobbylog,
What is the difference in someone who has never been a friend and someone who quits being a friend?
Just a thought. |
Violet
Registered user
Username: Violet
Post Number: 450
Registered: 2-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 1:29 pm: | |
Can a beliver ever stop beliving? Can a beliver not be baptized? Can someone who is baptized not belive? |
Raven
Registered user
Username: Raven
Post Number: 508
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, July 13, 2006 - 3:38 pm: | |
Great thought, Mary - that's a perfect illusration.
In answer to Violet's questions, here's my take on them.
Can a believer stop believing? I suppose it's possible, but I can't imagine stopping believing
Can a believer not be baptized? Yes. I'm sure there are other cases besides the thief on the cross where someone became a believer but didn't get baptized. I would think most believers would want to be baptized, but there could be circumstances that don't allow it.
Can someone who is baptized not believe? I would think so. Aren't there cases where people get baptized just because they were expected to, or to go along with what the group was doing? I think I've heard of SDA lifers who fit that category. |
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