| Author | Message | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 47 Registered: 6-2006  |
Hi Friends, I recently had a conversation with my dear Sister-in-law regarding intstruments/bands in worship services. Her SDA church is very strict with everything, only allowing piano, acoustic guitar and organ during services. (No canned music allowed!) I mentioned to her that my church (Lutheran) actually had a youth band with drums, electric guitars and other instruments and she bristled. She got so upset about it that she said this to me: "No offence, but I need rules. I don't like those churches where "anything goes" because they're only entertaining people. I want to go to a church that worships the right way. Isn't our purpose to become perfect so that Jesus will come back?!" My question is this. What are the guidelines, Biblically or SDA that were put down for worship, AND, what is the SDA doctrine (if any) that states that you have to be perfect in order for Jesus to come back? This is one of the issues festering in my mind and heart lately. It's painful to hear these things from the people who I've known for years and love and adore. Thanks! Leigh Anne | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 443 Registered: 2-2001 |
She is referring to the investigative judgment and how between the time Jesus finishes and when He comes we must stand perfect with out a meadiator. See the Inv Judgment link. As far as how to worship David praised God very vocally. My favorite one is when David danced before the Lord in his underware and when his wife rebuked him he said I will become even more undiginfied than this. She so offended his joy before the Lord that he never gave her any children. Read 2 Samual 6 its a hoot. This is where the rules of fellowship come into play. In doctrine unity In opinion freedom In all love. Good luck V  | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 48 Registered: 6-2006 |
Thanks Violet! I read 2 Sam 6 and loved it. It was a hoot! This is inspiring me to do a little study on worship. When I visit my in-laws' SDA church the hymns really sound like funeral durges - it's depressing. Not only that, but I never hear anything positive when my in-laws talk about church. There's always a complaint, it's such an unhappy place. I'll have to suggest some "underwear dancing", haha! Regarding IJ, I've been spending time in that link and learning a lot. I think back and I wish I would've told my SIL that if (IJ) is true then Jesus is NEVER coming. No one is or will ever be perfect. Also, if it is possible to become perfect, then why do we need Jesus? What an awful doctrine. Leigh Anne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4293 Registered: 12-2003  |
Leigh Anne, for a concise and really accurate, thorough presentation of the KJ, go to this link: http://formeradvent.temp.powweb.com/Proclamation2005_MarApr.pdf This issue of Proclamation featured the Investigative Judgment. Chris Badenhorst wrote the best summary of the IJ I've ever read. In a few pages he explains the doctrine bettern than I ever knew it. In this issue is also an article looking at some of the new interpretations of the IJ that try to remove the true cultic nature of the doctrine. This article shows that the new interpretations have not changed the actual doctrine, and they are also as insidious in different ways as the original. Colleen | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 49 Registered: 6-2006 |
Colleen, thanks. In writing this thread I'm realizing that the IJ is where all this anxiety for my kids comes from lately. The conversation with my SIL came up, then in talking to my husband about it I got nowhere fast. Good news is that I prayed about it one morning and asked God the question, "Is this all true Lord? Please show me the answer." That same day I found SDAoutreach.org, and then wound up through a link to this forum. Praise God! I know that he directed me to you all. Leigh Anne | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1390 Registered: 10-2004  |
Leigh Anne, You may find it enlightening to look at the following chapter from the SDA's official book (1988 edition) explaining their fundamental beliefs: http://www.sdanet.org/atissue/books/27/27-21.htm They describe many of the rules and regulations necessary to obtain perfection and thus ultimate salvation, even though they claim they are not "earning" their salvation by these things. The chapter "The Experience of Salvation" in the same book makes it clear that they are teaching that these things are necessary for ultimate salvation. Here is what they say about music:
Most of that is taken from the official SDA Church Manual. Here is a quote from the current edition of the Church Manual: "Great care should be exercised in the choice of music. Any melody partaking of the nature of jazz, rock, or related hybrid forms, or any language expressing foolish or trivial sentiments, will be shunned. Let us use only good music in the home, in the social gathering, in the school, and in the church. (See p. 78.)" (Page 180; http://www.adventist.org/beliefs/church_manual/Seventh-day-Adventist-Church-Manual-17th-edition.pdf) By the way, at that footnote 17 in the quote from the official belief book, they also say: "For examples of the degradation in much modern music and entertainment, see Tipper Gore, Raising PG Kids in an X-rated Society, (Nashville, TN: Abingdon Press, 1987)." Interesting. The extent of the rules in that chapter of their official belief book is amazing. Among the things they say are "sin" are not getting sunlight, and not wearing "healthful" clothing. So I guess if you live in Alaska, you better hope that "probation" does not "close" in the winter when you can't get sunlight--or else you'll go to hell! Under "The Blessing of Christian Dress." they say: "4. Healthful. It is not only diet that affects a person's health. Christians will avoid clothing styles that do not adequately protect the body or that constrict it or otherwise affect it in such ways as to cause the health to deteriorate." There is a new version of this book now which includes their new 28th fundamental belief, but I think the old chapters are still the same or at least pretty much the same--but I may be wrong. Colleen, do you know if that is the case? Anyway, Leigh Anne the SDAs do teach that Jesus cannot come back until "His people" (SDAs) get their act together, do what they're supposed to do, become perfect, etc. They believe that it is within their own power to "hasten" and "delay" His coming. You wrote: "Also, if it is possible to become perfect, then why do we need Jesus?" Actually, according to EGW Jesus did not need to come to this earth at all:
Jeremy | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1391 Registered: 10-2004 |
Leigh Anne, I forgot to mention that EGW said (after it was already occurring at the time) God has shown her that Satan would bring drums into the churches right before the "close of probation." Some SDAs think that this "prediction" has been fulfilled since some SDA churches use drums. Here is the quote from EGW:
God's Word says: "Praise him with a clash of cymbals; praise him with loud clanging cymbals." (Psalm 150:5 NLT.) Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 11, 2006) | ||
| Grace_alone Registered user Username: Grace_alone Post Number: 52 Registered: 6-2006 |
Hi Jeremy! That WAS amazing. Through the years I've heard all kinds of discussions between in-laws regarding these exact issues. I know that some of my family were told that if they entered a rock concert, or a bar, that God could not follow them in. Now all of this is making sense to me. A few years ago someone took a backround tape and sang special music at the Chula Vista SDA church (San Diego) and there was a "hint" of drum in the song. It caused such a stink that they banned all canned music. Now the big complaint is that the special music people are singing and throwing notes around and "the pastor is letting them!" Regarding clothes. Christians should avoid clothes that constrict? So does that mean I should avoid wearing a bra? I also thought it was interesting how they grouped the "reading and music rules" with two Bible verses that have nothing to do with music! No wonder my husband gets confused sometimes on whether it's Ellen or the Bible. (He just recently shared that with me). How arrogant is it to say that you actually have power over Jesus and when he can return! But you can't say that you're saved. (Feined humility?) In reading your blurb from Signs of the Times, I just got the feeling that the Law is bigger and greater than Jesus himself. I appreciate your post. That was exactly what I was looking for. Leigh Anne | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4306 Registered: 12-2003 |
Leigh Anne, your statement "I just got the feeling that the Law is bigger and greater than Jesus himself" is actually how it is. Although no one will admit this in words as clear as yours, the fact is that they do believe the law is an eternal verity, and Jesus came to uphold and preserve it. He kept it, He died to preserve it. (They do say that!) Colleen | ||
| Helovesme2 Registered user Username: Helovesme2 Post Number: 554 Registered: 8-2004  |
Leigh Anne: Regarding clothing: er, yes. ANY clothing, foundational or ortherwise, that 'restricts the free flow of the blood' is considered to be inappropriate by many people who are trying to live by the letter of Ellen. This would be why in 'conservative' or 'historical' Adventism some men wear suspenders when ever they are not wearing overalls, and why many women will be seen in jumpers or dresses more often than skirts (and some who do wear skirts will make sure they are not 'tight waisted'). This is to make sure the the circulation is in no way inhibited, and to contribute to even temperature between the extremities and the vital organs, and to prevent the chilling of the one or the congestion and overheating of the other. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1395 Registered: 10-2004 |
Notice how they say things like "Christ's followers will shun..." or "Christians will avoid..." That is the way EGW wrote, a lot of the time. So, if you don't follow these "rules" then you aren't a Christian. When they say, "Christians will avoid clothing styles that do not adequately protect the body," I guess that means that if you go outside in the cold without a coat on or without long sleeves, then you aren't a Christian! I still can't get over some of these statements, and they're from their official belief book! Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 11, 2006) | ||
| Javagirl Registered user Username: Javagirl Post Number: 263 Registered: 6-2005 |
Jeremy, I would love to read your edited messages . Speaking of perfection, I loved this quote I read recently. If you feel the call of the spirit, then be holy with all you soul, with all your heart, and with all your strength. If, however, because of human weakness, you cannot be holy, then be perfect with all your soul, with all your heart, and with all your strentth. But if you cannot be perfect because of the vanity of your life, then be good with all your soul...Yes, if you cannot be good because of the trickery of the Evil One, then be wise with all your soul.... If, in the end, you can neither be holy, nor perfect, nor good, nor wise, because of the weight of your sins, then carry this weight before God and surrender your life to his divine mercy. If you do this, without bitterness, with all humility, and with a joyous spirit due to the tenderness of a God who loves the sinful and ungrateful, then you will begin to feel what it is to be wise, you will learn what it is to be good, you will slowly aspire to be perfect, and finally you will long to be holy. (quoted in Peter van Breeman, Let All GOd's Glory Through.) JavaGirl | ||
| Zjason Registered user Username: Zjason Post Number: 42 Registered: 11-2005 |
Hi everyone. Just kind of lurking this morning. All this stuff about being perfect ect is still sort of ambiguous to me. Won't go into all the stuff thats been going on with me since I last posted...Anyhow, my wife had a book by George Knight called "I used to be perfect". I know he's an adventist and supports the church and all. So with a great deal of prejudice I began reading the book. I'm partway thru, and I did find his explanation of the problem with perfection to clarify things a bit. You'll have to forgive me, I'm coming of a night shift here at the hospital, so I don't think I'm going to expound too much on the book since I haven't finished it yet. And I don't think I would be much help rambling on... Has anyone else read or heard 'bout this book? I'd be interested to read your thoughts as well... Tanks Jason | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4310 Registered: 12-2003 |
I haven't seen the book, JasonóI'm interested to hear more about what you're reading. Perhaps someone else here has seen it...? Colleen | ||
| Violet Registered user Username: Violet Post Number: 449 Registered: 2-2001 |
When my girls were little I sewed their dresses. Laura Ashley was big then with the dresses were always flowey. The kindergarden teacher commented on how she was pleased. It never occured to me what she was saying until now. I just thought I was a good seamstress!! | ||
| 91steps Registered user Username: 91steps Post Number: 75 Registered: 8-2005  |
Folks, you would be suprised at what the Youth Dept at the GC now allows in order to get new youth into the church. Full out rock music is okay with them, as long as it attracts kids to their programs. I am no prude, I was raised Episcopalian, and we only had an organ in church. So anything other then an organ or piano was strange to me. The Messianic Congregation I attend has a small "band", keyboard, bass, large bongo type drums and tamburines. But the music is very uplifting. Personally I do not feel that loud music has a place in any church service, again, I am not a prude, just old fashioned. |
