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U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 74
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 7:12 pm: |     |
Colleen,
Do I understand correctly that you believe a person's belief in Jesus is controlled by God and that God gives only the people who are elected a belief in Him? |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 203
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 7:20 pm: | |
The quotes from the early church fathers which say we have free will & choice seem to me to reinforce something that I think is glaringly obvious about the whole "free will vs. predestination" debate:
We are looking at a paradox!
God is sovereign and all glory is His, yet He has also given us choice. If we use earthly logic to sort this out, we will find ourselves at one extreme position or another extreme, and we'll tear each other apart if we don't agree with one another. Not only that, we'll become enamored with our extreme and miss the glory of relationship with God while we focus to win people to our extreme. |
Jeremiah
Registered user
Username: Jeremiah
Post Number: 123
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 8:24 pm: | |
To say that free will and predestination is a paradox sounds very Orthodox. The Eastern Orthodox have a whole lot of use for the term paradox in their theology. 
Jeremiah |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1926
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 9:20 pm: | |
Ramone,
While there is paradox, we still cannot have it both ways. Yes, humans are responsible for all the choices they make, and there will be no one in hell who did not choose to be there. But even though human responsibility is real, the Bible makes it plain that it is impossible for a person who is spiritually dead to have any part in their own resurrection from the dead. None of us choose to be born physically, or can choose our own fathers. Since spiritual birth is even an infinitely greater miracle, then how can someone totally spiritually dead choose to be born again? Since the Bible uses adoption in describing our relationship to out heavenly Father, then, I ask what physical child who is adopted can possible choose their father?
Romans 3:11 ff:
"None is righteous, no, not one;
11no one understands;
no one seeks for God.
12All have turned aside; together they have become worthless;
no one does good,
not even one."
13"Their throat is an open grave;
they use their tongues to deceive."
"The venom of asps is under their lips."
14"Their mouth is full of curses and bitterness."
15"Their feet are swift to shed blood;
16in their paths are ruin and misery,
17and the way of peace they have not known."
18"There is no fear of God before their eyes."
No one seeks for God. We are dead in our trespasses.
It is a most humbling doctrine to realize that we have absolutely nothing to do with our salvation. I know this goes against everything we Americans stand for. We want to be in control of our destinies and be the captains of our souls. The plan of salvation outlined in scripture is foreign to these concepts.
Here is a quote from Martin Luther's "Bondage of the Will" P.69
"First, God has promised certainly His grace to the humbled: that is, to the self-deploring and despairing. But a man cannot be thoroughly humbled, until he comes to know that his salvation is utterly beyond his own powers, counsel, endeavors, will, and works, and ABSOLUTELY depending on the will, counsel, pleasure, and work of another, that is, of God only. For if, as long as he has any persuasion that he can do even the least thing himself towards his own salvation, he retains a confidence in himself and does not utterly despair in himself, so long as he is not humbled before God."
Martin Luther said this is the basic doctrine on which the whole gospel stands or falls. If anyone who doubts what Luther is saying, at least read the book "Bondage of the Will" (especially the one published by Fleming J. Revell and translated by J.I. Packer) and follow his scriptural arguments in his debate with the Roman Catholic scholar Erasmus.
Adventism, and much of popular evangelicalism would be on the side of the Roman Catholic scholar in this debate. Here is a very helpful link on this issue:
http://www.jesussaidfollowme.org/CalvinismArminianism.htm
Here is the Roman Catholic official view on those like Martin Luther who would deny that man has free-will with regard to salvation:
Many Protestants Believe the
Jesuit-Romanist View of Free Will
(The Roman Catholic Council of Trent, The Sixth Session: Justification)
Canon IV. If any one saith, that man's free will moved and excited by God, by assenting to God exciting and calling, no-wise co-operates towards disposing and preparing itself for obtaining the grace of Justification; that it cannot refuse its consent, if it would, but that, as something inanimate, it does nothing whatever and is merely passive; let him be anathema.
Canon V. If any one saith, that, since Adam's sin, the free will of man is lost and extinguished; or, that it is a thing with only a name, yea a name without a reality, a figment, in fine, introduced into the Church by Satan; let him be anathema."
Ramone wrote:
"In a nutshell, when talking to the unsaved by firstly focusing on how you DON'T have choice (free will), I think we're kind of trying to convince them of Satan more than we are of Christ. We're focusing on their inability to save themselves more than on Christ's ability to save them. Sometimes people arrive to Jesus this way, but most of the time it's the Holy Spirit (not us) that convicts them of their sin."
Ramone,
Emphasizing the doctrines of grace is not promoting Satan's kingdom. The Roman Catholic Church though did teach this. It is always the Holy Spirit and never us that does the convicting, the evangelist never gets the credit as that link above suggests.
I am not suggesting that the gospel we preach to unbelievers is against free-will. When have any of us on the Reformed side ever suggested this? We are to preach Christ and Him crucified, and the gospel is to go out to all people in every part of the world. Election is God's business. He has guaranteed the results when we go out and preach the gospel.
Soli Deo Gloria,
Stan
|
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 75
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 9:24 pm: | |
So for those who believe in election, is there much emphasis on reaching the lost? If someone doesn't go reach out to the elected people who don't know about God, are they saved anyway? |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1927
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 10:12 pm: | |
U2,
That is an excellent question. God has commanded us to go out and preach the gospel to the entire world. If we are truly regenerate, we follow His commands to do that. Some of the greatest evangelists in Christian history have been Calvinists--Spurgeon, Livingston, Whitefield etc.
There is human responsibility and God's sovereignty--they are both true.
The beauty of the Reformed view, when rightly understood, is that now evangelism becomes even more exciting, because God has guaranteed the results. No one comes to Christ except by hearing the Word of God preached. God promises that His word will not return void. God's sovereign plan for salvation is to work through his regenerate people to bring the harvest of souls that God has fore-ordained before the creation of the world.
I like this quote from Charles Spurgeon:
"Let us arouse ourselves to the sternest fidelity, labouring to win souls as much as if it all depended wholly upon ourselves, while we fall back, in faith, upon the glorious fact that everything rests with the eternal God."
C.H. Spurgeon
Stan |
Cathy2
Registered user
Username: Cathy2
Post Number: 165
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 10:15 pm: | |
I agree with Ramone's post #203 and Jeremiah's following post--it is a paradox and a mystery of God.
BTW, the LCMS Lutherans believe that God's grace draws us, yet there is an element of free will, too. A position, somwhere in the middle, without going to either extreme in doctrine. (I cannot speak for what individual pastors might say, veering away from offical church stands)They admit that it is a mystery of God and that we just do not know and understand how it works. That is what the Eastern Orthodox church believes as well. Some call that synergy. I see ALL the scriptures together this way and leave to God what belongs to God's wisdom and omnipotence.
I used to be more extreme, but no longer. I'd rather love God and love my nieghbor by his power and because he made me want to more and more because he loves me more and more. And if I don't, he sure do convict me!
Sis in Christ,
Cathy
|
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 78
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 10:39 pm: | |
I'm a little unclear about the position of a person who believes in election regarding reaching people who are lost. I realize that there is an emphasis on people going to reach the lost, but do you believe if people aren't reached with the Gospel they will be lost? Does God only elect people when they will be confronted with the Gospel? What is your view of the following verses?
Romans 10:13-15 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
13For everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord [invoking Him as Lord] will be saved.(A)
14But how are people to call upon Him Whom they have not believed [in Whom they have no faith, on Whom they have no reliance]? And how are they to believe in Him [adhere to, trust in, and rely upon Him] of Whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher?
15And how can men [be expected to] preach unless they are sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings! [How welcome is the coming of those who preach the good news of His good things!](B) |
Cathy2
Registered user
Username: Cathy2
Post Number: 166
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 10:45 pm: | |
Food for thought--just that, ok?
Going by, at least, these two verses:
~And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me~
John 12:32
~...I will pour out of my Spirit upon all flesh...
Acts 2:17
Could it be--possibly, maybe, perhaps??? If we dare to think outside the box-- that Christ did "draw all men" to himself, the Spirit poured out "to all flesh", making them 'alive' souls---
Then that would make the human choice one of rejecting Christ as an alive soul, when the moment came, not of choosing Christ as a dead soul. As an already quickened soul to choose to reject Christ, it certainly makes it much more serious.
Also, the other day, when reading some scripture, I noticed that there are a few more words in certain (perhaps all) translations, beyond 'choice' and 'choose', which can apply to those concepts; such as 'would', for example.
Pondering,
Cathy |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1929
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 10:46 pm: | |
Hi Cathy,
Here is the official LCMS statement of belief on this subject (courtesy of Ric_b on another thread):
Here is the LCMS description of the doctrine of election.
http://www.lcms.org/pages/internal.asp?NavID=576
And here is an excerpt:
35. By the election of grace we mean this truth, that all those who by the grace of God alone, for Christ's sake, through the means of grace, are brought to faith, are justified, sanctified, and preserved in faith here in time, that all these have already from eternity been endowed by God with faith, justification, sanctification, and preservation in faith, and this for the same reason, namely, by grace alone, for Christ's sake, and by way of the means of grace. That this is the doctrine of the Holy Scripture is evident from Eph. 1:3-7; 2 Thess. 2:13, 14; Acts 13:48; Rom. 8:28-30; 2 Tim. 1:9; Matt. 24:22-24 (cp. Form. of Conc. Triglot, p. 1065, Paragraphs 5, 8, 23; M., p. 705).
36. Accordingly we reject as an anti-Scriptural error the doctrine that not alone the grace of God and the merit of Christ are the cause of the election of grace, but that God has, in addition, found or regarded something good in us which prompted or caused Him to elect us, this being variously designated as "good works," "right conduct," "proper self-determination," "refraining from willful resistance," etc. Nor does Holy Scripture know of an election "by foreseen faith," "in view of faith," as though the faith of the elect were to be placed before their election; but according to Scripture the faith which the elect have in time belongs to the spiritual blessings with which God has endowed them by His eternal election. For Scripture teaches Acts 13:48: "And as many as were ordained unto eternal life believed." Our Lutheran Confession also testifies (Triglot, p. 1065, Paragraph 8; M. p. 705): "The eternal election of God however, not only foresees and foreknows the salvation of the elect, but is also, from the gracious will and pleasure of God in Christ Jesus, a cause which procures, works, helps, and promotes our salvation and what pertains thereto; and upon this our salvation is so founded that the gates of hell cannot prevail against it, Matt. 16:18, as is written John 10:28: `Neither shall any man pluck My sheep out of My hand'; and again, Acts 13:48: `And as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.."'
So to be considered in the stream of Reformation thinking, and of Luther himself, then a synergistic view of salvation is not consistent with this.
Stan
|
Cathy2
Registered user
Username: Cathy2
Post Number: 167
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, July 22, 2006 - 11:59 pm: | |
Stan,
You are my dear and respected brother in Christ, but I must disagree with you on something you said.
"No one comes to Christ except by hearing the Word of God preached."
The 'Word' is Jesus Christ, himself....the Word became flesh...
~And the Word became flesh and dwelt[tented] among us, full of grace and truth;...
John 1:14
I heard the Bible preached and SDA taught all of my life, but I never came to Christ, truly. Not with all of my SDA fear issues. How could I? Even after years away, when the fear was gone. I knew verses coming out of my ears, after a lifetime of SS, but I didn't know HIM. I had never been taught how to know him or how I could be loved by him, personally in his presence. I had only been taught in Adventism how to use my intellect. To live in my head.
Without going into all the details, I fell hopelessly into love, into my Lord, when I knew him personally, felt him, knew he loved me, felt protected by him, knew he was really, truly there, HIM, Himself, his presence; his reality, not my intellectual-head reality and understandings.
Somewhere in the past 25 years, I learned that my Lord is hopelessly in love with me. Even if it takes a ruthless grace, at times, to get me back to knowing him, his reality and his love (not my salvation) I am his Beloved. You are too.
It was not a charismatic, experiential, purely emotional experience (although, we must not ever deny our emotional being part with God). I've done that too. It was a different thing; a world out of time. His world, thoughts, his love, yet brought down to mine because my thoughts are so limited; and need salvation and divine healing, too.
And scripture backed it up, for confirmation. One of them--"Be still and know that I am God."; after his actions and union with and love for me.
After each private and special time like this (there are never enough)), I always desired that i could give this love to others so they could be 'touched' and healed, too; not keep it for myself.
Now, at last, I have found millions of other Chrisitans, who believe this way, too--loving God, being with God, giving God's love to others. Yes, his scripture, but, first, God, Himself is real, here, feeding us; and where he desires us to be--right with him, not about him.
I'm sorry, if this went off topic for this thread, a bit. When I get started on his love for me and his realness, it gets hard for me to quit.
Christ tents with me and my children; I know that every day~
Heart-felt and love in Christ,
Cathy |
Cathy2
Registered user
Username: Cathy2
Post Number: 168
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 12:30 am: | |
Stan,
I was going by what was printed on the official LCMS site, before the new president came in and changed it, a few years ago. But what you quoted is not Calvinism. I have been a Lutheran for years and studied everything, before I joined (You know us ex-SDA's ).
I must, finally, say, Stan--and to others-- it does irk me, when many people on here, are questioned and shot down, when they post something, like we don't know what we are talking about.
I could go into it, point by point, but, Stan, I truly do not desire to.
Why should we? What is the point. I did not post what I did about the Lutherans because of you.
I believe that we are dead souls, called and drawn by the grace of God and the Holy Spirit, quickened into Christ's life.
But I know that I 'die daily' like Paul and 'run the race' and strive for the goal like him, too.
I am a sinner, saved and justified by grace, and faith--a gift of God-- being sanctified, making daily choces; whether I will yell at my teenager or send myself to my room to count to ten or not. Sometimes, I fail and have to repent and say I am sorry.
It is late at night. I am tired. I have a real life out here with real children, who are in distress and need prayers.
Sometimes, people just post to give information, and others can take it or leave it.
Love in Christ, your sis,
Cathy |
Cathy2
Registered user
Username: Cathy2
Post Number: 169
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 12:39 am: | |
BTW, I am no longer a Lutheran, anyway, so it is all rather moot to me.
Let Christ, alone, be lifted up.
Cathy |
Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 279
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 12:42 am: | |
My question for all who disagree with the idea of the free will in one way or another is: Have you the assurance of salvation? And if you do, what is the ground of your assurance?
By assurance of salvation I understand what the Investigative Judgment denies to the believers. The IJ is a logical conclusion of the free will belief. Basically the IJ postpones the final verdict of the judgment after the closing of the process of investigation, and nobody is sure of his salvation until that moment. A true believer can have a temporary assurance of salvation, but because he has a free will, he can choose to reject Christ under the pressure in the future, he can deny Christ and end his life as a lost soul. Because of his free will, he cannot be sure if he finally will be saved. He may be saved now, but not in the future. He is still under a potential punishment which awaits him if he is not faithful to the end. The IJ is only checking if he is faithful to the end.
This is why the sins are not completely erased from the books of records. After all, if somebody, exercising his free will turns from Jesus, he is left with no forgiveness and no righteousness before God and will suffer punishment for ALL his sins, because there is nothing to cover them. The IJ speaks of a provisional forgiveness, not about the blotting of sins. God never totally forgives and absolutely. He will remember the sins temporarily forgiven if the believer, exercising his free will rejects Christ under pressure. Only if the believer sustains his choice pro-Christ until the final end his sins are erased, are totally atoned, are totally purged.
The evangelical gospel gives assurance to the believer from the moment he believes. He is assured that he already passed from death, from condemnation, to life, to the resurrection of the life, and will not come to judgment, will not be resurrected for the punishment (John 5:24, 29). His sins were blotted out, and he is perfect forever (Hebrews 10:14).
My question is targeted only to those who believe that they will be saved and are 100% sure that this will happen. On what grounds can you have this assurance? If you have free will, there is a chance to reject Christ in the same way you accepted Him. Can you guarantee that you will stay faithfull to the final end? On what grounds? You are free to choose, and under the pressures of the life your power of the will can be broken. The spirit is willing but the flesh is weak. You cannot escape the conclusion that if you have free will to choose Christ you have also the free will to reject Him, and if you'll do this you'll be lost. You cannot be 100% sure of your eternal destiny because you cannot be 100% sure that you will not deny Christ.
What's amazing to me is the fact that many who reject Calvinism, are 100% sure of their salvation, on the grounds that they are not going to reject Christ. They doubt the salvation of others, but not their salvation. They reject onte of the 5 points of Calvinism, the perseverance of the saints, saying that some genuine believers will not persevere to the end and will be lost, but they believe that they will persevere to the end no matter what will happen. This is good, but on what grounds? Certainly not because God is sovereign and will keep their will under submision, but because they will keep their will under submission to God. Not because God chosen them, but because they had chosen God, and will continue to choose Him until the final end.
Many abhor the idea that God had chosen only some people for salvation. I have a friend who said that he is open to the idea, but he had to find some clear biblical evidences to believe it. The next moment he regreted making this statement, because I quoted him a good text. He actually justified his rejection saying that it's Luke imperfect language.
Acts 13:48 When the Gentiles heard this, they were glad and honored the word of the Lord; and all who were appointed for eternal life believed.
Not all the habitants of that city believed, but all who were appointed for the eternal life. Not all were appointed for the eternal life.
The assurance of salvation is wrongfully based on the free will of men if somebody believes in the free will. Somebody must have great faith in himself, like apostle Peter, that he will not betray Christ, that he will not reject Him no matter what will happen, to believe in the assurance of his salvation. It's good to believe that you will be saved in the final end, but this belief must be rooted in God, not in ourselves. |
Riverfonz
Registered user
Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1930
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 1:07 am: | |
Jackob,
You have stated very well why what we are talking about is so very important. Adventism is rooted in Rome's religion of synergistic salvation. So, when protestantism in this country subscribes more to Rome's religion than the Gospel of the Bible and the reformers, then it does need to be pointed out.
Cathy,
I meant no offense by what I posted. I did not see your previous post when I posted what I did, but when you mentioned the Lutheran position, I thought that their official statement was pertinent to the discussion. But I didn't know you were no longer Lutheran, and that is OK as well. I will pray for you and your family.
Stan |
Cathy2
Registered user
Username: Cathy2
Post Number: 171
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 3:35 am: | |
Dear Stan,
You are my brother in Christ and we have communicated enough that I cannot just blow you off (not that I would feel right in Christ doing that to anyone). And it doesn't matter to me whether you are a Calvinist or an Agnostic; I care about you as a person.
If I am tired-- and probably shouldn't have been posting in the first place tonight-- and was a cranky sister to you, please forgive me.
But, Stan, Lutherans were never Calvinsts and never will be, even with their strong position on initial monergism. Let's leave it there, ok? I'd rather focus on--love God, love my nieghbor. (So I will focus on other threads)
Thank you for your prayers. My children are being abused by their father and 2 of them are in another state with him, at this time.
With love and respect,your sis in Christ, Stan~
Cathy |
Agapetos
Registered user
Username: Agapetos
Post Number: 207
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 4:39 am: | |
Hi Stan,
One rhetorical question before the meat of this post: You asked, "how can someone totally spiritually dead choose to be born again?" Well, no one can choose to be born, but people can choose to die. But I digress.
About the paradox, respectfully, I disagree with you because I believe we can "have it both ways" (that is, we can believe a paradox about this) on the condition that we do not run to great extremes with our logical arguments. Paul quoted a saying once, "Do not go beyond what is written", and I think of it in particular with this argument.
Argument about free will and predestination is not the Gospel. While it does have a place in theology, the fact that it keeps popping up in conversations here by a few members (instead of by other members and new members) is not a good thing. Rather, it looks like a recurring debate with mixed fruit.
There are different kinds of discussion---some are done in the presense of God and are open to the Spirit. They're non-coercive and don't rely on many arguments or persuasion. But there are other kinds of discussions which are concerned more with the point than with the bigger picture. These types are usually not concerned with the people involved. These tend to rely on persuasion more. For example, I think you know how it feels to be on the receiving end of a many-worded altar call, right? Yet despite the belief in the Spirit's drawing (instead of man's), a vast amount of time seems to be continually devoted to persuading people about "sovereign grace" and making sure everyone is convinced that "free will" is the greatest evil conceived by Satan, "Rome", and apostate churches.
Honestly, I'm tiring of the repeated discussion. It seems focused on persuasion more than grace. While it seems to be about grace, the nature the discussion takes is one that often squeezes out real, living grace. It's one thing to argue about where a river originates from, but it's another thing to actually jump into the river and bathe in it.
I have a growing frustration with the Calvinism vs. Arminianism debate because it seems to display the bloody in-fighting of people who love God more than any other debate. "I am right", "You are wrong". "This is right", "That is of the devil". It seems to bring out our greatest concern for a point more than the people we're talking to, and it seems to bring out our greatest stubbornness and inability to listen to one another.
Most of all, I miss the sheer joy of God, the joy of salvation. Every time I come away from one of these discussions I have to go into God's presence and ask for healing, not only because of hard things said, but for how hard I have had to become in responding and in wandering so far off of what's truly important (grace is truly important, not arguments about grace). I miss God! What can I say?
I worry every time this discussion is brought up because it is so far from the really important matters of loving God and loving one another. I keep wanting to write something that will help focus things, but I can't do it. I keep telling myself I'm not going to get involved in this ongoing discussion, but "points" are hard to resist. But nevertheless, I want to remove myself from this one. I just wish there were some way to shout "BEWARE!" to anyone innocently inquiring about the topic, because they're going to get overwhelmed and persuaded very with much vehemence and extreme argument.
But whatever I think, may God bless you and each of every one of us who has the opportunity to love Him and love one another here.
In Him,
Ramone |
Cathy2
Registered user
Username: Cathy2
Post Number: 173
Registered: 2-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 9:19 am: | |
Thank you, again, Ramone, for bringing us all back to that river of Grace. I appreciate your posts so much. I agree with all that you posted. Let's all just jump into that river of grace!
In the past 24 hours I have been thinking of the innocent people in Lebanon.
The children's coffins, especially...
These Muslim children never had a chance to choose anything, let alone for Christ.
For over a decade, I have come to believe that God's grace is so much more vast than we humans can conceive of and that we cannot and do not understand it all.
I have a cousin, by marriage, who just got out of Lebanon, last month, before all this mess began. She is an Iranian SDA, who married my cousin, then had to wait to come to the USA to join her husband. If she had been killed in this war, I believe that she would be alive in Christ, in Eternity, even if she believed in the IJ, Ellen, et all.
God bless Susu, my new cousin, brand new to America and safe at last.
Cathy |
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 79
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 11:00 am: | |
Jakob,
Yes, a person who does not believe in election can have assurance of their salvation. It was God who justified me and santified me. When God looks at me He sees Jesus. Jesus took my place. Turning my back on God and no longer wanting any part of Him is not a little thing that may happen, but it is a deliberate choice. Sinning doesn't get me in the danger zone because I am a new creation in Christ Jesus. My flesh may want to sin, but my spirit has been recreated. The Holy Spirit convicts of sin and molds me to act like the holy person I already am. Believing on Jesus doesn't give me any credit whatsoever. My works don't get me saved it is only Jesus.
Stan,
I realize you said that the Calvinists do focus on outreach, but I am concerned that it may not be of the urgency needed. If the elected are already set up then what difference is it if someone goes and preaches the Gospel or not.
2nd Peter says that God is not willing that any should perish and that all should come to repentance.
2 Peter 3:8-10 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
8Nevertheless, do not let this one fact escape you, beloved, that with the Lord one day is as a thousand years and a thousand years as one day.(A)
9The Lord does not delay and is not tardy or slow about what He promises, according to some people's conception of slowness, but He is long-suffering (extraordinarily patient) toward you, not desiring that any should perish, but that all should turn to repentance.
I do believe that Christians should take the great commission seriously. Throughout time the church has been relatively passive about it. Sure there have been missionaries that have reached many people with the Gospel.
Romans 10 shows that it is our responsibility to go into all the world and preach the Gospel: Romans 10:13-15 (Amplified Bible)
Amplified Bible (AMP)
13For everyone who calls upon the name of the Lord [invoking Him as Lord] will be saved.(A)
14But how are people to call upon Him Whom they have not believed [in Whom they have no faith, on Whom they have no reliance]? And how are they to believe in Him [adhere to, trust in, and rely upon Him] of Whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without a preacher?
15And how can men [be expected to] preach unless they are sent? As it is written, How beautiful are the feet of those who bring glad tidings! [How welcome is the coming of those who preach the good news of His good things!]
The country of Nepal just opened up to the Gospel! But Christians typically spend more on golf balls and dog food than they do on missions. It is not unusual for penny drives to be what funds missions.
It is my belief that the souls that are lost are not because God elected them to be lost for God is not willing that any should perish, but because the church has not elected to fulfill the great commission. |
Riverfonz
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Username: Riverfonz
Post Number: 1931
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 2:02 pm: | |
U2,
When I was an SDA it was drummed into me that if we didn't witness to our friends who were lost, then they would be lost because of us, and they would blame us for being lost. I just can't fathom that it is in the final analysis that it all depends on us whether people are lost or saved. If we don't go preach the gospel, the rocks will cry out. There have been many stories where Muslims who would have no other way to hear about Christ, were actually given visions, where Christ revealed Himself to them. God's elect will all come to Him no matter what it takes. We are commanded to do that, but it is very liberating and makes us even more free to preach the gospel, and to witness, knowing that it won't be some mistake by us that prevents these people from being saved. All glory goes to God and Him alone for salvation.
Cathy,
I don't want to belabor this much, but I would like to at least correct a possible misconception. The reason I responded to you with the official Lutheran statement was to this statement that you made:
"BTW, the LCMS Lutherans believe that God's grace draws us, yet there is an element of free will, too."
I never said that Lutherans were Calvinists, but that LCMS statement does not appear to allow for any type of synergism, or room for free-will. But
I could have misinterpreted that statement. But even if it is true that Lutherans allow for free-will, Martin Luther himself didn't allow for free-will in any form. He said that if any man attribute salvation to free-will, even in the slightest, then he knows nothing of grace or the gospel. I have also read Lutheran theologians on the website "issues etc." and heard Dr. Rod Rosenbladt on the White Horse Inn, and they are in one accord with the Calvinist theologians on that.
Just one other point Cathy where you said this:
"You are my dear and respected brother in Christ, but I must disagree with you on something you said.
"No one comes to Christ except by hearing the Word of God preached."
Cathy, I was basing that statement on Romans 10:14-17:
"But how are they to call on him in whom they have not believed? And how are they to believe in him of whom they have never heard? And how are they to hear without someone preaching? And how are they to preach unless they are sent? As it is written, "How beautiful are the feet of those who preach the good news!" But they have not all obeyed the gospel. For Isaiah says, "Lord, who has believed what he has heard from us?" So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ."
So Cathy, it is OK if we disagree, and I am sorry if I came across too strong or ungraceful in discussing the doctrines of grace.
Ramone wrote:
"I worry every time this discussion is brought up because it is so far from the really important matters of loving God and loving one another. I keep wanting to write something that will help focus things, but I can't do it. I keep telling myself I'm not going to get involved in this ongoing discussion, but "points" are hard to resist. But nevertheless, I want to remove myself from this one. I just wish there were some way to shout "BEWARE!" to anyone innocently inquiring about the topic, because they're going to get overwhelmed and persuaded very with much vehemence and extreme argument."
Ramone,
I have reviewed all my posts on this thread, and have reviewed Jess, Colleen, Jackob, and Jeremy's posting on this topic. I have not seen "vehemence and extreme argument" as you say. But please show me where that is occurring. You started a very interesting discussion when you posted the Calvinism topic, and many of us tried to respond to your questions. Looking back over the posts, I see many scripture references, and quotes from Martin Luther and John MacArthur, and a quote from the Roman Catholic Council verbatim condemning the Reformers for opposing them on this. Is this extreme rhetoric?
The whole Bible from Genesis to Revelation describes in minute detail God's election and sovereign choices, and God asserts over and over that He controls everything that occurs in the universe. Jesus thought this topic was very important:
37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out.(John 6:37)
44No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:44
65And he said, "This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father."
66After this many of his disciples turned back and no longer walked with him." John 6:65,66
(Notice the reaction to Jesus' strong words)
25"At that time Jesus declared, "I thank you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that you have hidden these things from the wise and understanding and revealed them to little children; 26yes, Father, for such was your gracious will.[g] 27All things have been handed over to me by my Father, and no one knows the Son except the Father, and no one knows the Father except the Son and anyone to whom the Son chooses to reveal him."Matthew 11:25-27 (Notice it is the Son who chooses us)
And the Apostles writings are just chock full of statements teaching election and pre-destination, and everytime the word choose comes up, it is always God doing the choosing.
So, if the Bible is so strong on teaching this topic, then why should we be afraid of teaching these doctrines in the same way Jesus and the apostles did?
One more question Ramone I have for you, 'We have had a lot of discussion on this in the past month or so, but it seems to me that you are somewhat angry, upset, or defensive when this doctrine is brought up? I admit that I don't always say things gracefully, but why does there seem to be so much protest over the fact that we contribute nothing to our salvation?
Ephesians 2 is so very clear:
1And you were dead in the trespasses and sins 2in which you once walked, following the course of this world, following the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience-- 3among whom we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, carrying out the desires of the body[a] and the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind. 4But[b] God, being rich in mercy, because of the great love with which he loved us, 5even when we were dead in our trespasses, made us alive together with Christ--by grace you have been saved-- 6and raised us up with him and seated us with him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7so that in the coming ages he might show the immeasurable riches of his grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8For by grace you have been saved through faith. And this is not your own doing; it is the gift of God, 9not a result of works, so that no one may boast. 10For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them." Eph. 2:1-10
That is a wonderful statement of the gospel, that is through and through strictly a gift of God's grace.
Rejoicing today in God's sovereign grace,
Stan
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Jackob
Registered user
Username: Jackob
Post Number: 281
Registered: 7-2005
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 2:15 pm: | |
May we all agree that our faith cannot be separated from predestination? Even those who are inclined to free will believe that the second coming is a sure event, ordained and predestined by God. The gospel is tied to predestination.
And also our faith in the gospel is tied to predestination. The second coming is sure because it was predestined to be, to take place. If this is not true, we can rightfully doubt that the second coming will take place. We can and we are 100% sure, we have assurance that there will be a future coming of Christ because it is predestined. It's an event that does not depend on the actions of anybody, and because nobody can prevent it, or nobody can change the decision of the Lord to come again, we can be sure.
This is true with any other thing promised by the gospel. The resurrection is also predestined, and all the future blessings of the kingdom of God. Unconsciously the sovereing will of God and predestination is a central part of our faith. Without it we cannot have true faith, only a hope that is not sure of the future. Only a wish that the promises of God will be fulfilled, and nothing more.
Like I said, the gospel has the promise of the eternal life, and emphasizes the fact that this eternal life is as sure for the believer as the second coming. The promise to rise again at the resurrection is as sure as the promise of the resurrection. Our future destiny is as sure predestined as the resurrection. Both are predestined. We cannot believe that we will be saved with the same faith as we believe that there will be a resurrection if we don't believe that our salvation is predestined as the resurrection is predestined. The entire gospel is based on predestination. Take this and you will take all the gospel promises and will make them only wishes. The gospel is certainly destroyed in this way. |
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 80
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 2:26 pm: | |
Stan quote: "When I was an SDA it was drummed into me that if we didn't witness to our friends who were lost, then they would be lost because of us, and they would blame us for being lost. I just can't fathom that it is in the final analysis that it all depends on us whether people are lost or saved. If we don't go preach the gospel, the rocks will cry out. There have been many stories where Muslims who would have no other way to hear about Christ, were actually given visions, where Christ revealed Himself to them. God's elect will all come to Him no matter what it takes."
I understand many Christians hold that belief, but I don't see that supported in the Bible. Jesus told us to go into all the world and preach the Gospel and the apostles risked and gave up their lives to do that. I do not see evidence in the Bible where people became Christians without having a person come preach the Gospel. God even translated Phillip to preach the Gospel. If some Muslims became Christians because of a vision that is great But I cannot base my beliefs on what happens to other people, but only on what I read in the Word of God. If you do see Biblical evidence where someone became a Christian without a person preaching the Gospel then please share. I think that resting in the fact that all God's elected people will be saved somehow puts us in a position of inaction. It is nice to think that somehow, someway God will save people without us sharing the Gospel, but what if we are wrong? |
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 81
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 2:51 pm: | |
Jackob,
I like the way you spell your name.
I'm trying to wrap my mind around the concepts you presented. So you believe a person's belief in Jesus is controlled by God? Are all condemed until they believe or do you believe that only the non-elected people are condemned? Are you saying that God gives certain people the ability to believe in Him and the other people He does not give any faith to believe in Him?
I do believe that God predestines people to be saved, but it cannot be forced on anyone. I believe He has predestined all mankind to be saved (He desires that no one should perish, but all come to repentance). I do not believe that everything that happens on earth is God's will. Jesus prayed Thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven. Murders, rapes, and all sorts of evil things are not the will of God. God brings good out of them, but He is not the author of destruction. He is the restorer, repairer of destruction.
How is the Gospel destroyed by people who believe that a person has free will to choose God?
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Dennis
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Username: Dennis
Post Number: 806
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 3:22 pm: | |
In regard to the Biblical view of God's calling and election, we cannot ignore key words like "predestined" and "called" as found in Romans 8:27-33. Since we do not know who God is calling, we must assume he is calling everyone we come in contact with. As part of the Great Commission, we are to preach the Gospel in all nations and to all people. Calvinism in no way trivializes or minimizes Christian evangelism and/or mission outreach.
One never knows when God is counting on us to reach a potential candidate for heaven. God has many ways of reaching his elect. Obviously, God utilizes a human element in many cases because this helps us appreciate his calling anew and enriches our Christian experience. To serve as royal ambassadors of the sovereign God of the universe is really beyond human description. Let us NEVER edit out or minimize any part of Scripture--especially its Christological and soteriological aspects.
Dennis Fischer
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Jeremy
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Username: Jeremy
Post Number: 1417
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 3:47 pm: | |
U2,
You wrote: "If you do see Biblical evidence where someone became a Christian without a person preaching the Gospel then please share."
The Apostle Paul said that Jesus Christ revealed the Gospel to him directly, and that he was not taught it by man:
quote:"For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not according to man.
12For I neither received it from man, nor was I taught it, but I received it through a revelation of Jesus Christ.
13For you have heard of my former manner of life in Judaism, how I used to persecute the church of God beyond measure and tried to destroy it;
14and I was advancing in Judaism beyond many of my contemporaries among my countrymen, being more extremely zealous for my ancestral traditions.
15But when God, who had set me apart even from my mother's womb and called me through His grace, was pleased
16to reveal His Son in me so that I might preach Him among the Gentiles, I did not immediately consult with flesh and blood,
17nor did I go up to Jerusalem to those who were apostles before me; but I went away to Arabia, and returned once more to Damascus." (Galatians 1:11-17 NASB.)
God is not limited to only saving those whom we reach with the Gospel. He could use the stones to preach if He wanted to.
Also, in Acts 10, Cornelius (an unbeliever) had a vision where an angel spoke to him and told him to send for Peter.
Jeremy
(Message edited by Jeremy on July 23, 2006) |
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 83
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 3:59 pm: | |
Dennis,
I appreciate your comments. I hope you are not assuming that I am editing or minimizing Scripture. I read the same texts as you do, but see things differently.
You mentioned that God has many ways or reaching his elect. Do you mean apart from the Gospel being preached? I have seen nothing in the New Testament that says that. In Romans 1 Paul talks about his duty and obligation to preach the Gospel and how the Gospel is the power of God unto salvation.
13I want you to know, brethren, that many times I have planned and intended to come to you, though thus far I have been hindered and prevented, in order that I might have some fruit (some result of my labors) among you, as I have among the rest of the Gentiles.
14Both to Greeks and to barbarians (to the cultured and to the uncultured), both to the wise and the foolish, I have an obligation to discharge and a duty to perform and a debt to pay.
15So, for my part, I am willing and eagerly ready to preach the Gospel to you also who are in Rome.
16For I am not ashamed of the Gospel (good news) of Christ, for it is God's power working unto salvation [for deliverance from eternal death] to everyone who believes with a personal trust and a confident surrender and firm reliance, to the Jew first and also to the Greek,
17For in the Gospel a righteousness which God ascribes is revealed, both springing from faith and leading to faith [disclosed through the way of faith that arouses to more faith]. As it is written, The man who through faith is just and upright shall live and shall live by faith.(A) |
U2bsda
Registered user
Username: U2bsda
Post Number: 84
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 4:19 pm: | |
Jeremy,
Thank you for sharing that. Yes, I agree that Paul was revealed the truth about Jesus from Jesus himself. Cornelius however was not given the Gospel in the vision, but instructed to heed what Peter said. Peter did share the good news with him.
If God can use the stones to cry out, then why doesn't He use them? People are dying in the 10/40 window never even hearing the name of Jesus once. |
Dennis
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Username: Dennis
Post Number: 807
Registered: 4-2000
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 4:37 pm: | |
U2bsda,
Thank you for your comments. It is important to note that Paul was not reached by a Christian minister or evangelist on the road to Damascus. Our sovereign God is not limited in his methods of calling lost mankind. It is been reported that about 90 percent of the Muslims who have become Christians in recent years had some type of dream or vision to compel them.
Indeed, God doesn't choose us against our will. However, He certainly changes our will in the process of calling us (e.g., Paul was struck down and blinded). This shows that sometimes God gets very forceful in compelling us to be his elect. In the process of regeneration, He changes our wanter. Now His desire has suddenly become our desire. Our choices are finally in tune with God's choices. Praise God!
Dennis Fischer |
Colleentinker
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Username: Colleentinker
Post Number: 4366
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 23, 2006 - 10:35 pm: | |
U2, I believe that it's not necessary to be able to totally explain the way election and choice interact. The real issue is that we must not dismiss any part of the Bible as we decide how to understand God and His work in us.
We cannot dismiss the clear and powerful texts in Ephesians and Romans 8 and 9 and other places that refer to God's foreknowledge, choice, election, predestination, justification, and glorification. Neither can we dismiss the texts that say He is not willing that any should perish, that we must repent, believe, and be baptized, etc. We must humbly acknowledge that all of these texts are truth and reveal significant parts of reality.
As John Piper says, when we bump into texts that seem to contradict each other, our response should be to pray for God to teach us what He wants us to know and to reveal to us how these texts harmonize. Never can we "explain away" a passage because it doesn't make sense.
This reality means that sometimes we hold these ideas loosely, allowing God to know the whole reality and trusting Him with what we don't understand. I'm finding that, unlike my Adventist days, I'm much more comfortable with not having all the answers developed into an air-tight "system" than I ever was before. And miraculously, I find that as months and years pass, the paradoxes begin to appear increasingly integrated. I can't completely explain how this worksóbut God is completely faithful to teach us, to reveal Himself, and to anchor us firmly in His word as we commit to learning Biblical truth.
The other point I want to make is that God doesn't expect us to know all the eternal details. He asks us to respond and obey. When we are confronted with the gospel, we are to respond. God never asks people to understand they are elected BEFORE they respond. He also asks us to be His witnesses and to preach the gospel. We are accountable to Him for submitting and surrendering to the things He asks us to do, for offering ourselves as living sacrifices, for surrendering our desires, dreams, and reactions to Him.
Election and predestination are Biblical facts. So are Jesus' commands to us to submit and believe and live by the law of the Spirit. When we begin to surrender to God's sovereignty, submitting the pieces of our lives to Him becomes increasingly desirable. We change insideóand we grow spiritually in wisdom and knowledge. We won't all see everything the sameóbut we can be absolutely certain that God in His faithfulness will both reveal Himself as sovereign over all aspects of reality and heal our hearts as He makes us holyóset apart for His glory.
Colleen |
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