| Author | Message | ||
| Jorgfe Registered user Username: Jorgfe Post Number: 238 Registered: 11-2005 |
http://blogs.ellenwhitenews.org/gjorgensen/2006/07/19/that-is-quite-a-stack/ | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 119 Registered: 1-2004  |
Great picture, Gilbert! It's sure nice to be free of EGW as an interpreter... I did a whole lot of reading just the Bible after I came to the conclusion about EGW which you have come to. That year I was in Utah, I read almost everything on the ellenwhite.org website. But my interest in reading only the Bible came a little later. Of course, eventually I came to realize that there is more than one way to interpret the Bible and still have it "make sense"... even the SDA interpretation "makes sense" - at least to an SDA!  and that led me to where I'm at now... becoming part of the historic Church. Gotta decide which interpretation is most likely the true one and I chose the one that does not conflict with the history of Christianity. But reading just the Bible and doing alot of praying was sure eye-opening! You're making a good choice... keep studying! Jeremiah | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 225 Registered: 4-2005  |
The denial of 'free-will' was to Luther the foundation of the Biblical doctrine of grace, and a hearty endorsement of that denial was the first step for anyone who would understand the gospel and come to faith in God. The man who has not yet practically and experimentally learned the bondage of his will in sin has not yet comprehended any part of the gospel; for as Luther wrote in his Bondage of the Will, this understanding is "the hinge on which all turns," the ground on which the gospel rests, as Luther shows in detail in the final section of this book. Again, Luther attests "apart from grace, 'free-will' by itself is Satan's kingdom in all men." Regarding the importance of sola Scriptura, Luther states, "the Word of God must be taken in its plain meaning, as the words stand. For it is not left to our discretion....to fashion and refashion the words of God as we please;...." p.194. He appeals on p. 202, "...let us cleave to the pure and simple Word of God." The seeds of Pelagianism and semi-Pelagianism are appearing all over the field of Christianity. Adventism has returned to embrace it. Unless there is a return to N.T. teaching on grace, faith and salvation, no really effective feform of this portion of corruption with in Christendom can be accomplished. The message of Scripture IS the Gospel, from Gen 3:15 on through N.T. And the authentic Gospel IS Jesus Christ! All glory must be given to Christ and the FATHER. This can never happen until man is removed from any part of the soteriological equation as having any part whatsoever. Keep Jesus Central, and Grace the only path upon which you discover Biblical truth. | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4350 Registered: 12-2003  |
I've been realizing that when we don't really understand what it means that we are born "in Adam" and that we literally move to a new posiitonóin Christówhen we are born again, the whole issue of whether or not we are saved or "stay saved" cannot be understood. We can't move from being "in Adam" because that is the condition of all humanity. Period. It is only by God's sovereign act that we can move out of Adam and into Christ. "He rescued us from the domain of darkness and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son" (Col 1:13). He sets His seal of ownership on us, giving birth to our own living spirit (Ephe 1:13-14; John 3:5-6). When we are born again, we move from being in Adam to being in Christ. There, we are literally hidden with Christ in God (Co.l 3:3). That is a place we cannot fall fromóand it is a place we cannot put ourselves. We cannot qualify for being in Christ, and we cannot keep ourselves in Christ. God Himself does that! When we are in Christ, we no longer have to worry about proving we're saved by doing good works. That focus is natural to being in Adam. Now, in Christ, instead of fighting with sin, we submit to Jesus. Since our living spirits still inhabit bodies of mortal flesh, we still have temptations and struggles. But in Christ, we now have the ability to submit and surrender to Him when temptations come. In Adam, our only choice is to struggle with sin. In Christ, we surrenderónot only the sin but the part of us that WANTS to sin. We give up our rights to get even and self indulge. And none of this is possible because we choose to become holy. All of this is the result of God's sovereign mercy and grace that led Him to rescue us from the domain of darkness when we were dead in sin. He makes is possible for us to surrender to Himóit's no longer about gaining victory. Now it's about yielding and not resisting His cleansing work in us. It's amazing to me how clear the Bible is about God's complete work of rescue, redemption, and restoration in us. Sometimes when I see the texts that describe the mystery of Christ, I feel like one of our Friday Bible study members who says occasionally, "That text wasn't in my Bible when I was an Adventist!" Praise God! Colleen | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 120 Registered: 1-2004 |
Since you mention the subject of freewill, or the lack thereof, I'd like to ask how love works if there is not freewill in other words the ability to choose. Is God the only one with freewill and capability of actually choosing? Maybe it's my SDA upbringing, but I thought in order to love, one must have the capability to choose. Jeremiah | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1918 Registered: 3-2005 |
Excellent posts Jess and Colleen, I know this topic of free-will keeps coming up a lot on this forum, but the reason it is important is because the Bible is abundantly clear from Genesis to Revelation, that God is in total control of his creation. In every instance in the New Testament, where choice is mentioned in regard to salvation, it is God, or Christ who makes the choices, and not us. This order is reversed in today's semi-pelagian evangelical emphasis. This quote is from john MacArthur's book "The Gospel according to Jesus": "Listen to the typical gospel presentation nowadays. You'll hear sinners entreated with words like, 'accept Jesus Christ as personal Savior'; 'ask jesus into your heart'; 'invite Christ into your life'; or 'make a decision for Christ.' You may be so accustomed to hearing those phrases that it will surprise you to learn none of them is based on biblical terminology. They are the products of a diluted gospel. It is not the gospel according to Jesus." (John MacArthur Page 21 "The Gospel According To Jesus") We need to get back to the teaching of Jesus and the apostles, as well as Martin Luther, and the Reformers. Luther considered the doctrine of bondage of the will as the very basic doctrine that the true Christian church stands or falls. Here is a summary of the basic five solas of the Reformation by Michael Horton: http://www.modernreformation.org/mh94reformation.htm Here is an excerpt from the conclusion of the article: "Soli Deo Gloria: Our Only Ambition" "The world is full of ambitious people. But Paul said, "It has always been my ambition to preach the Gospel where Christ was not known." (Rom 15:20). Since God has spoken so clearly and saved so finally, the believer is free to worship, serve, and glorify God and to enjoy him forever, beginning now. What is the ambition of the evangelical movement? Is it to please God or to please men? Is our happiness and joy found in God or in someone or something else? Is our worship entertainment or worship? Is God's glory or our self-fulfillment the goal of our lives? Do we see God's grace as the only basis for our salvation, or are we still seeking some of the credit for ourselves? These questions reveal a glaring human-centeredness in the evangelical churches and the general witness of our day. Robert Schuller actually says that the Reformation "erred because it was God-centered rather than man-centered," and Yale's George Lindbeck observes how quickly evangelical theology accepted this new gospel: "In the fifties, it took liberals to accept Norman Vincent Peale, but as the case of Robert Schuller indicates, today professed conservatives eat it up." Many historians look back to the Reformation and wonder at its far-reaching influences in transforming culture. The work ethic, public education, civic and economic betterment, a revival of music, the arts, and a sense of all life being related somehow to God and his glory: These effects cause historians to observe with a sense of irony how a theology of sin and grace, the sovereignty of God over the helplessness of human beings, and an emphasis on salvation by grace apart from works, could be the catalyst for such energetic moral transformation. The reformers did not set out to launch a political or moral campaign, but they proved that when we put the Gospel first and give voice to the Word, the effects inevitably follow. How can we expect the world to take God and his glory seriously if the church does not? The Reformation slogan Soli Deo Gloria was carved into the organ at Bach's church in Leipzig and the composer signed his works with its initials. It's inscribed over taverns and music halls in old sections of Heidelberg and Amsterdam, a lasting tribute to a time when the fragrance of God's goodness seemed to fill the air. It was not a golden age, but it was an amazing recovery of God-centered faith and practice. Columbia University professor Eugene Rice offers a fitting conclusion: All the more, the Reformation's views of God and humanity measure the gulf between the secular imagination of the twentieth century and the sixteenth century's intoxication with the majesty of God. We can exercise only historical sympathy to try to understand how it was that the most brilliant intelligences of an entire epoch found a total, a supreme liberty in abandoning human weakness to the omnipotence of God. Soli Deo Gloria, Stan | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 121 Registered: 1-2004 |
This topic of free will is certainly one that is strongly related to SDAism... seeing especially how on this forum there are a number of people who abandoned freewill like they abandoned SDAism. I'd say my main concern about not having freewill is what does that do to love. There is of course the historical aspect; http://www.bcbsr.com/topics/freewill.html is a link demonstrating what the early Christians believed. Jeremiah | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4352 Registered: 12-2003 |
Jeremiah, of course there is choiceóthe Bible is clear that we have choice. And it's also clear that our choices have eternal consequences. All of our decisions as mortal men and women and as born-again people with eternal life fall under the authority of our sovereign God. We are not told how, exactly, these principles work in detail. But we know that the Bible tells us God rescues us, brings us to life, raises us with Christ and seats us at the right hand of God. We are also told to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, to repent and be baptized, to choose whom we will serve. Since we know God is sovereign over all, we know that our choices happen under the oversight of His sovereignty. Yet we are held responsible for whether or not we follow Him. We have to believe that everything the Bible says about these issues is trueóand our "job" is to pray that God will will fill us with the knowledge of His will in all spiritual wisdom and understanding, that we may walk in a manner worthy of the Lord, bearing fruit in every good work and increasing in the knowledge of God (Colossians 1:9-10). Colleen | ||
| Seekr777 Registered user Username: Seekr777 Post Number: 552 Registered: 1-2003  |
Colleen said: "We are also told to believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, to repent and be baptized, to choose whom we will serve. Since we know God is sovereign over all, we know that our choices happen under the oversight of His sovereignty. Yet we are held responsible for whether or not we follow Him." BELIEVE, REPENT, Be BAPTISED, CHOOSE all seem to be things we are asked to commit to when we are called to come to the front. I DO believe that God is sovereign over ALL and if it was not for Him I would have NO ABILITY nor inclination to seek or accept Him. He is the one calling me and drawing me without my doing anything to warrant His call. I guess I don't understand what some are saying and I've hesitated to even post since some are soooo adamant in their position and absolute ! ! ! I do believe we make a choice for Christ or against Christ. I believe He died that all might be saved but He does not force us, when He stands at the door and knocks we can choose not to open the door. While we have done NOTHING to warrant His knocking at the door He does knock and we can choose to accept or reject His sovereign call on our life. All I can say is this is how I understand things now. In Christ, Richard rtruitt@mac.com | ||
| Riverfonz Registered user Username: Riverfonz Post Number: 1924 Registered: 3-2005 |
Hi Richard, It is absolutely true that everyone makes a choice to either reject or choose Christ. However, the picture of Jesus that was taught to me in SDA, as well as to a large extent, the majority of evangelical Christianity, is this Jesus who is just knocking on our hearts door just waiting for us to be willing to respond to Him. This presents a somewhat passive view of salvation. But I believe the Jesus of the New Testament actively goes out to seek and to save everyone who God elected from eternity past. While Christ's atonement has benefits in common grace to all men, the blood of Christ is efficacious only for his elect, who God chose in Christ to save. So in this way, the atonement was completed at the cross. If Christ died to pay the penalty for sin for all men, then all men would be saved. If he died for the sins of all men, then the atonement would not be complete, as it would then be up to us to apply the benefits of that atonement. The SDA doctrine of the IJ and sanctuary is one of the logical pathways that a universal atonement for all men will lead. It depends on our exercising our free-will and cooperating with God for salvation. There is a passage of scripture that is very strong for the fact that everyone God draws to Himself will be saved. John 6:35ff: 35Jesus said to them, "I am the bread of life; whoever comes to me shall not hunger, and whoever believes in me shall never thirst. 36But I said to you that you have seen me and yet do not believe. 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out. 38For I have come down from heaven, not to do my own will but the will of him who sent me. 39And this is the will of him who sent me, that I should lose nothing of all that he has given me, but raise it up on the last day. 40For this is the will of my Father, that everyone who looks on the Son and believes in him should have eternal life, and I will raise him up on the last day." 41So the Jews grumbled about him, because he said, "I am the bread that came down from heaven." 42They said, "Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does he now say, 'I have come down from heaven'?" 43Jesus answered them, "Do not grumble among yourselves. 44No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws him. And I will raise him up on the last day." John 6:35-44 ESV. John 6:44 says that no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him. That Greek word for draw has a meaning of drawing against gravity, or against one's will. John 6:37: 37All that the Father gives me will come to me, and whoever comes to me I will never cast out." So, there seems to be some inescapable logic that if no one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him, and, then if 'all that the Father gives me will come to me', then we have one of two meanings 1. Either all men will be saved, or 2. or only some will be saved, but all that God draws will by definition come to Him. The question about our own personal choice to follow Christ comes about only after we have first become born again. We choose to follow Christ because we have been created anew and given a new resurrected soul. Only when the hearts of stone are changed into hearts of flesh, can a decision be made to follow Christ. Richard, since you have Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology, there are three relatively short, but excellent chapters 32-34, which was very helpful to me in seeing why those who are totally dead in sin, cannot even cooperate with God in their salvation, but that salvation must be totally 100% monergistic (see www.monergism.com ) for more details defining monergism), So salvation is totally of God. If it depended in any portion on our free will, then man would end up getting the credit for salvation, and it subtracts from grace. Sola Gratia, Stan | ||
| Jwd Registered user Username: Jwd Post Number: 226 Registered: 4-2005 |
Jeremiah, My ability to access the net has been interrupted. Cable tech is due today to fix the problem. So I'm behind in this discussion. I was not ignorning your question. We are called of or by God, through the medium of His sovereign grace. A dead person cannot will to do anything; not even to live. A dead person cannotlove, cannot choose, because they are dead. One must become born again, BEFORE they can choose Christ or have faith or become regenerate again. This power lies wholly in God. His sovereign will chooses the elect, whom He calls. He plants the seed of faith; brings to life by the power of His grace, while we are in a state of total unworthiness, helplessness - because we are dead spiritually, THEN, after coming alive, in a new birth, initiated by God Himself, we follow - which means obey as the Lord who calls us and leads us. God, who IS Love, fills our new life in Christ with love for Him and for our fellow man. We all have free will when it comes to daily dicisions in our physical/material world; but not when it comes to choosing Christ; for prior to life in Christ, we are DEAD spiritually. I repeat...a dead person can do nothing! When we are born of God, through the Spirit, we then become His adopted children brought into His family, and are joint heirs with Christ. All things become new because WE are new-born in Christ, and now as such, we will to obey Him and please Him and seek to understand and do His will out of gratitude and love; never as a means of earning merit points by our efforts, performance, or progress in sanctification. Justification is the foundation of the authentic Gospel. Once we mix sanctification as part of justification we are teaching or believing in a false gospel. We are saved TOTALLY, completely through justification BY faith; never combined with sanctification. If it is up to us to choose (although again,a dead person cannot choose or will anything), then we get credit for our having chosen Christ. Our decision was a crucial, if not the crucial part, as some teach, part of our salvation. So we get credit for having chosen Christ. That totally destroys a focal teaching of Jesus and all of Scripture; Soli Deo Gloria. God and Jesus are to get ALL the glory; not 99.99% but all of it. Zero, nada, zip, not a jot or tittle goes to us. That's why His name is "The Lord our righteousness." Our total righteousness, which is never imparted but IMPUTED by and through God's grace alone! PERIOD! | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1412 Registered: 10-2004  |
What a wonderful post, Jess! Jeremiah, Let's say you went to heroic lengths to rescue someone from death. That person is then filled with gratitude and love towards you for saving their life. Did they "choose" to love you, or did they love you because you first loved them and rescued them? I think a similar comparison could be made with children/parents. Does a child ever "choose" out of his own "free will" to love his loving parents? Jeremy (Message edited by Jeremy on July 21, 2006) | ||
| Dennis Registered user Username: Dennis Post Number: 803 Registered: 4-2000  |
Excellent posts, Jess and Stan! LEGALISM AND ENSLAVEMENT As I was coming out of a grocery store this morning, I was nearly run over by a young woman dashing into the store. Amazingly, by the time I had gotten back to the parking lot and unlocked my car, this lady was already back to her car with two packs of cigarettes in her hand. Also, nearby was a store employee smoking outside during a break. If I had asked either one of these women if they realized that they were deeply enslaved to tobacco, they would have likely told me that they actually enjoyed smoking and did not feel enslaved at all. Likewise, with many Adventists, they insist that they are not enslaved to any legalism at all. In fact, they claim, they are enjoying their Adventism very much. It even makes them feel superior to other Christians. Like addictive nicotine, legalism exerts a false sense of contentment and euphoria. Sadly, neither group wants to candidly admit its enslavement. Let us continue to expose the captor and evangelize the captives! Dennis Fischer | ||
| U2bsda Registered user Username: U2bsda Post Number: 69 Registered: 11-2004 |
How can a person be saved by grace through faith if they don't use their faith to be saved? How would a person who accepts a gift be able to take credit for the gift? Acts 16 says: 27 And the keeper of the prison, awaking from sleep and seeing the prison doors open, supposing the prisoners had fled, drew his sword and was about to kill himself. 28 But Paul called with a loud voice, saying, ìDo yourself no harm, for we are all here.î 29 Then he called for a light, ran in, and fell down trembling before Paul and Silas. 30 And he brought them out and said, ìSirs, what must I do to be saved?î 31 So they said, ìBelieve on the Lord Jesus Christ, and you will be saved, you and your household.î 32 Then they spoke the word of the Lord to him and to all who were in his house. 33 And he took them the same hour of the night and washed their stripes. And immediately he and all his family were baptized. 34 Now when he had brought them into his house, he set food before them; and he rejoiced, having believed in God with all his household. 1 John 2 1 My little children, these things I write to you, so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. 2 And He Himself is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the whole world. | ||
| Honestwitness Registered user Username: Honestwitness Post Number: 95 Registered: 7-2005  |
God says to me, "I created you, and I am the author and finisher of your faith. Without me you can do nothing. I could manipulate you, as if you were an automaton. But, because I AM who I AM, I have chosen of MY free will to allow you to have a certain, measured amount of your own free will. "I gave you the raw materials for you to use in making your choices, and I set out the consequences of those choices. But I have chosen to withhold my capacity to force you to choose one thing or the other. "I can give you power and I can take it back at any time. For my own reasons, I have chosen to give humans a measured freedom to choose between options that *I* give them and consequences that *I* determine. "In doing this, I am still ultimately in control of everything. So, in a sense mankind does have free will, and in another sense he does not. But I am the ONE who determines everything, so I am the ONE who really has free will." * * * * * * * I respond to God, "I acknowledge that You are the sovereign God, who has ultimate power over everything, including my free will. My freedom to choose was given to me by You, and is not something I deserve or have earned. "I am honored and humbled that you have chosen to give me a measured amount of Your power over my own life. Yet, I am fully aware that my free choices are still governed by You, enabled by You, and can be revoked by You at any time You so choose. "You creaetd me, therefore you have the perfect right to give or take away anything and everything, including my freedom to choose. "I thank You that You have given me clear and complete, written instructions in Your Word, the Bible, as to the parameters of my free will. Your Word teaches me that my choices will determine my ultimate destiny. This is a huge responsibility! "Therefore, I ask Your guidance and assistance at every point of choice that I am given, so that I will choose that which leads to eternal life with You as the ultimate result. "I also ask You, my Sovereign Lord, to give me Your power to influence other people to choose eternal life as well, as many people as possible, for as many years as I live. "If my free will is the fulcrum, then I ask You to lend me Your power as leverage to influence the greatest possible number of people, for the longest possible amount of time, to turn their hearts toward Your light, as the flowers turn their faces to the sun. I am honored that You would so use me to accomplish Your free will. "I ask you, Sovereign Lord, how did this love for You and others get inside me? And as soon as I ask, I know the answer. "I love You because You first loved me. You are the burning sun - the fire - the energy. I am the cold, hard surface, like the surface of the moon, on which You pour Your light energy in unending brilliance. The moon appears to glow, but in reality it doesn't glow - it reflects. "If anything good or loving appears to come from me, that is simply an illusion. I am nothing more than a cold, hard object against which your powerful energy continuously beams. Any light coming from me came first from You. Any love coming from me came first from you. "If people see any light or love in me, may they realize they are seeing Your light and love." Honestwitness | ||
| Jeremiah Registered user Username: Jeremiah Post Number: 122 Registered: 1-2004 |
If when we are spiritually dead we are incapable of willing to do anything, why do spiritually dead people regularly make choices in just about every concievable matter of life? If God is the only one who can choose who will be saved, then God is directly responsible for making people be lost, and therefore God is the author of evil, isn't He? Was it Adam that made the choice to sin initially or did God choose that? I'm going to put a section from Irenaeus of Lyons here, as a demonstration of what someone taught by Polycarp, who was taught by the Apostle John, believed was the teaching of the Apostles. ******* Chapter XII.-Of the Difference Between Life and Death; Of the Breath of Life and the Vivifying Spirit: Also How It is that the Substance of Flesh Revives Which Once Was Dead. 1. For as the flesh is capable of corruption, so is it also of incorruption; and as it is of death, so is it also of life. These two do mutually give way to each other; and both cannot remain in the same place, but one is driven out by the other, and the presence of the one destroys that of the other. If, then, when death takes possession of a man, it drives life away from him, and proves him to be dead, much more does life, when it has obtained power over the man, drive out death, and restore him as living unto God. For if death brings mortality, why should not life, when it comes, vivify man? Just as Esaias the prophet says, "Death devoured when it had prevailed."83 And again, "God has wiped away every tear from every face." Thus that former life is expelled, because it was not given by the Spirit, but by the breath. 2. For the breath of life, which also rendered man an animated being, is one thing, and the vivifying Spirit another, which also caused him to become spiritual. And for this reason Isaiah said, "Thus saith the Lord, who made heaven and established it, who founded the earth and the things therein, and gave breath to the people upon it, and Spirit to those walking upon it; "84 thus telling us that breath is indeed given in common to all people upon earth, but that the Spirit is theirs alone who tread down earthly desires. And therefore Isaiah himself, distinguishing the things already mentioned, again exclaims, "For the Spirit shall go forth from Me, and I have made every breath."85 Thus does he attribute the Spirit as peculiar to God which in the last times He pours forth upon the human race by the adoption of sons; but [he shows] that breath was common throughout the creation, and points it out as something created. Now what has been made is a different thing from him who makes it. The breath, then, is temporal, but the Spirit eternal. The breath, too, increases [in strength] for a short period, and continues for a certain time; after that it takes its departure, leaving its former abode destitute of breath. But when the Spirit pervades the man within and without, inasmuch as it continues there, it never leaves him. "But that is not first which is spiritual," says the apostle, speaking this as if with reference to us human beings; "but that is first which is animal, afterwards that which is spiritual,"86 in accordance with reason. For there had been a necessity that, in the first place, a human being should be fashioned, and that what was fashioned should receive the soul; afterwards that it should thus receive the communion of the Spirit. Wherefore also "the first Adam was made" by the Lord "a living soul, the second Adam a quickening spirit."87 As, then, he who was made a living soul forfeited life when he turned aside to what was evil, so, on the other hand, the same individual, when he reverts to what is good, and receives the quickening Spirit, shall find life. 3. For it is not one thing which dies and another which is quickened, as neither is it one thing Which is lost and another which is found, but the Lord came seeking for that same sheep which had been lost. What was it, then, which was dead? Undoubtedly it was the substance of the flesh; the same, too, which had lost the breath of life, and had become breathless and dead. This same, therefore, was what the Lord came to quicken, that as in Adam we do all die, as being of an animal nature, in Christ we may all live, as being spiritual, not laying aside God's handiwork, but the lusts of the flesh, and receiving the Holy Spirit; as the apostle says in the Epistle to the Colossians: "Mortify, therefore, your members which are upon the earth." And what these are he himself explains: "Fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence; and covetousness, which is idolatry."88 The laying aside of these is what the apostle preaches; and he declares that those who do such things, as being merely flesh and blood, cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. For their soul, tending towards what is worse, and descending to earthly lusts, has become a partaker in the same designation which belongs to these [lusts, viz., "earthly"], which, when the apostle commands us to lay aside, he says in the same Epistle, "Cast ye off the old man with his deeds."89 But when he said this, he does not remove away the ancient formation [of man]; for in that case it would be incumbent on us to rid ourselves of its company by committing suicide. ******* This - "The laying aside of these is what the apostle preaches; and he declares that those who do such things, as being merely flesh and blood, cannot inherit the kingdom of heaven. For their soul, tending towards what is worse, and descending to earthly lusts, has become a partaker in the same designation which belongs to these [lusts, viz., "earthly"]" - would really make sense if you read the book "For the Life of the World" by Alexander Schmemann. It explains the ancient meaning of "sacraments". By seeing the world and the things in it as an end in themselves, rather than as communion with God, one disconnects from the source of all life. "Flesh and blood" without communion with God is death. From Romans; 20] For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse: I.E. you can see and commune with God using the creation... [21] Because that, when they knew God, they glorified him not as God, neither were thankful; ( note the word "thankful".. eucharist in Greek ) but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened. And if you choose not to, look what happens... [22] Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, [23] And changed the glory of the uncorruptible God into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and fourfooted beasts, and creeping things. [24] Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves: [25] Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen. Jeremiah | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 200 Registered: 10-2002  |
Wow, this is kind of interesting. I liked something from Jwd's first comment: I suppose when I've heard this debate discussed before, it's taken on a very extreme and detailed tone that has focused on extended particulars. But in the first paragraph here I kind of get a sense of the important heart of the issue in a healthy and not-too-extreme way: Basically we just need to realize that our will is corrupted by Satan, and that we don't have "freedom" until we have Christ. We'd like to think that we can make choices ourselves---without taking part in the spiritual "war"---but really we're in it whether we like it or not. In a nutshell, what we're talking about is simply realizing repentance---"Hey God, I can't do this by myself; I've tried, and I've died. I need You. I can't do it. I need You." And that is a hinge on which salvation does rest. I like what Honestwitness wrote, too, because it's also true. I think it's part of one of the many paradoxes about the truth in life and in Christ: We are called to choose, yet our choice is not un-influenced, either. Yes, we choose, but yes, we are not alone: I remember how Jesus prayed in Gethsemane, "Father, not My will, but Your will be done." I don't want to run to extremes of "how much" glory is given to "my part" in any of these choices. I don't think God calls us on that hair-splitting mission because it takes our eyes off of Him; and even if we semantically focus on denying ourselves the glory, we may only be focusing on ourselves in photo-negative---the end result being that we might be distracted from continually choosing to rest in Him and helping others make that choice. I wrote once about "choosing to forgive" as an illustration of this---it's from God, but it's also a choice I'm very much a part of. How much? Who cares! Make the choice. Any fool knows that in the end, God alone will get the glory when every knee bows and tongue proclaims---because everyone then truly will see more than is possible to see now. While He was on earth, Jesus didn't seem to worry too much about the "glory" issue (a couple times He "put the smack down", but often He didn't). I wonder if the way He "sought glory" might expose a difference: maybe there are perhaps two ways of "giving glory"----one, a way of giving glory by human means (and this type Jesus sought to escape and would not entrust Himself to), and then in contrast a way by which He humbly gave glory to His Father that above all, spoke His agape love and kept the heavenly priorities in order (coming to save sinners, redeeming hearts instead of terminology, etc.). On a different "plane", however, is what most of the world means when they hear "free will". I believe they mean something different than what sticklers in the theological debate mean when they hear and say the term. Basically I think they mean "choice", and that you can choose. It's one thing to shout at such people loudly, "No! You don't have choice! You don't have free will!", but the fact is, until they see their own sins and need for a Savior, they won't be able to admit this. If we take this approach, we're trying to go through a strange door. Instead, we lift up His grace, His agape love, Him on the cross for us! And as we do that and trust the Holy Spirit, He will show them their sins and the futility of life outside His help. In a nutshell, when talking to the unsaved by firstly focusing on how you DON'T have choice (free will), I think we're kind of trying to convince them of Satan more than we are of Christ. We're focusing on their inability to save themselves more than on Christ's ability to save them. Sometimes people arrive to Jesus this way, but most of the time it's the Holy Spirit (not us) that convicts them of their sin. | ||
| Agapetos Registered user Username: Agapetos Post Number: 201 Registered: 10-2002 |
Richard (Seekr777)--- I really liked what you wrote. I believe that. And what you wrote, too, Colleen. I think what you wrote was very Gospel-centered. In this debate (like so many others) it's easy to get distracted and focus on points instead of on the Gospel, and particularly how all these things apply to relationship with God. That's one of the things I loved about what Honestwitness shared. It can simply be theoretics unless we actually talk to God in relationship with Him. Historically in this arean, it's been easy for many to argue concerned more with a point rather than with actually talking to God and loving people. It's easy to become enamored with a point, a phrase, a slogan, and kind of miss the important issue. For example, in America there are many people who are proud that the country has creeds like "In God we trust" on its money and "under God" in its pledge, as well as other phrases in other places. But many people are proud of these things like a boast. And we know there's a lot of trouble in and from the nation that ought not to be ascribed to the results of being "under God". In other words, it's foolish to boast about the slogan. If it can do any good---in fact this is the highest possible good it can do---it could help us individually turn to God and trust in Him. But as I think we can all honestly admit, that is sadly perhaps one of the least effects of the phrases. Maybe the coin was inscribed with that intent, but it's evolved into something different. (All this is beside the point, however, in sight of recognizing that the New Covenant is not a covenant with a nation in order to make a righteous nation---that was the Old Covenant). There are many honest Christians who don't seem to know that it's better to love your your neighbor with God's love and pray for your neighbor than it is to picket and demand that your neighbor recite "under God" in the pledge because his ancestors might or might not have believed it. Anyway, I think we ought to recognize that the same thing can easily happen with a phrase like "Glory to God alone". There is a way to give Him glory that is right, and then there is a way to try to give Him glory that is earthly and not right. The Son did it in everything He did, and most of the time He did it without arguing about it. Instead of seeking to persuade people that "this and this" was right, most of the time Christ taught in parables that ended in questions---in other words, He left things hanging so that you yourself would come to the conclusion that He was right. It's like what any good salesman knows---you don't sell something by saying, "This is the best thing ever!" Instead, you show them the features of the product and why you love it, and they'll come to the conclusion on their own that it is the best thing ever. In His love for the Father and in His love for us, Jesus showed us that He is the best thing ever. Sometimes He said it bluntly (like in John), but most of the time He was content to demonstrate it and pose questions that would lead us to adore Him. Again, in the end, all glory is going to God. We don't need to argue with people about who's getting glory and who isn't. If we've truly seen that God will get the glory, we won't be worried about people appearing to steal His glory---because in the end everything will be seen for what it truly is. Jesus didn't hide from allowing people to abuse Him and beat up on Him, and He didn't ask us to cut one another when we're trying to defend Him ("No more of this!" He said to Peter). There is a way to give glory to God in our lives, but I think we must be careful of demanding it of others: you could say that they need to freely offer it to Him for themselves (haha). I remember again that the Pharisees in John 9 used the charge, "Give glory to God" in order to try to make the blind man testify falsely about Jesus. Anyway, just some thoughts. I praise God because all glory is truly His (whether we see it or not), and in the end I won't have any illusions about what hand He's had in things---I'll be wonderfully shocked to see Him all over the place and in places that I had never expected or seen His hand working in. | ||
| Jeremy Registered user Username: Jeremy Post Number: 1414 Registered: 10-2004 |
Jeremiah, You wrote: "If when we are spiritually dead we are incapable of willing to do anything, why do spiritually dead people regularly make choices in just about every concievable matter of life?" We aren't "incapable of willing to do anything." We are only "spiritually dead"--meaning we are incapable of willing to do anything spiritual. Spiritually dead means that our spirits are dead to God and alive to sin. They can choose sin, but they can't choose God. Just because our spirits are separated from God, doesn't mean we can't make choices in everyday life. Jeremy | ||
| Colleentinker Registered user Username: Colleentinker Post Number: 4359 Registered: 12-2003 |
Yes, Jeremyóthat point is significant. Being spiritually dead doesn't mean we can't live our physical lives; it simply means we are unable to come to life spiritually. When we are in Adam, we are "by nature objects of wrath" and dead in our transgressions and sins. When we are under the control of Satan's domain, we are unable to make a choice for God. God has to rescue us from the domain of darkness (Col 1:13). When we were dead in our sins, He raised us to life with Him, forgiving us all our sin and cancelling the written code against us. (Col. 2:13-14) Notice that He did these things WHILE WE WERE DEAD. He didn't do them after we chose Him. U2óregarding our faith: Ephesians 2:8-9 says, "For it is by grace you have been saved, through faithóand that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God, not by works, so that no one can boast." Even our faith is a gift from God. Elizabeth Inrig, in teaching her monthly class in systematic theology from Wayne Grudem's "Bible Doctrines", said it this way (and actually, Grudem says it also): These thingsófaith, choice, regeneration by the Holy Spirit, being brought to spiritual lifeóthese things all happen so nearly simultaneously in many cases that it's hard to tease them apart. God brings us to life with the same power that brought Jesus to life. As far as talking to people about salvation goes, however, it's important to remember that a spiritually dead person hears the gospel from a different "place" (in Adam) than a believer does (in Christ). As Stan has sometimes quoted, we speak to unbelievers about the need for them to repent and believe in Christóbecause that is the Biblical mandate. Once we are alive in Him, He opens our spiritual eyes, so to speak, and we begin to "see" that He had chosen us from eternity. The reality of election is not visible prior to being in Christ. It is a spiritual reality that is spiritually discerned. Colleen |
